CUEmu - Thread Posts

SaleusCorwen

Fri May 14, 2004 7:02 pm

garvin wrote:

SaleusCorwen wrote:

this applies only if you assume the current situation is in balance... when in fact the opposite may be true... it may have been unbalanced all the time and your suggestion is to bring it into a more balanced situation..

Not at all...I admit that the current system is already way out of balance...but moving the cert to just artisan (any level) would inturn do more damage then good...throwing things farther out of balance since it would cause a negative ripple effect unless something was done to compensate...

Basically it's taking something out of balance and pushing it farther out of balance for the majority to help the minority...

Garvin,

I think one problem i have with agreeing with you though is that you say that combat professions use harvesting as a main source of income and you agree that the amount of income in the game is unbalanced towards the too much money.

and your worry is that if you take it away people will have less income..

to me that doesn't seem right.... if there is an unbalance in that there is too much income and the source of that income for combatants is they are dependent on harvesting resources for that income.. then that to me sounds a lot like an imbalance (please realize i am in no way trying to sound harsh, i do appreciate your point of view as it stimulates great discussion). and limiting their harvesting abilities pushes more into the balanced range.

on the scout issue i don't necissarily believe it is a balance issue in that.

to be able to harvest organic material a person has to dedicate skill points to do it.. meaning they have less skill points to spend on say.. crafting.. or even combat. It is a trade off (a balance ) you have to spend skill points to do what you want to do.

Now i believe many people feel the same about harvesting for the artisan. Harvesting inorganic should cost something in the ways of skill points.

in all honesty the Artisan field itself is very useless in what it can craft.. right now the only thing that is really worth anything in the artisan field are the vehicles (vehicle customization tool is required upon the DE).. other than that there is nothing in the artisan field that makes it a very valuable profession (pretty much why harvester certification is brought up in the first place). All artisan components[weapons/armor etc.]are pretty much worthless with the elite crafting profession competition. The master artisans do have the ability to craft components but that is there to make master artisan necissary not necessarily to make it important .

Now the scout itself gains many things like mask scent/terrain negotiation/increased organic harvesting (bonuses).. And those things cost skill points.. It only makes sense that the inorganic should be the same way.. Even artisan experimentation bonuses do not work in the elite crafting profession, pretty much making the elite crafting professsiona seperate ordeal from the artisan field.

There has been much discussion on the harvester certifications and some ideas wouldn't take harvesting away from the general public but would give harvesting bonuses and incentive to the artisan and make the skill point distribution a little more balanced..

one idea (which is not mine but i will re-iterate)which i think would please everyone is Everyone can use personal harvesters ( i would tune down personal harvesters to make them slower and cost more)

Artisans get both heavy harvester certifications and harvesting bonuses.. That way.. yes you can still harvest but to really be good at it you will have to spend the skill points.

Message Edited by SaleusCorwen on 05-14-2004 07:05 PM

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Kettemoor Galaxy

Srednii

Fri May 14, 2004 10:34 pm

#106

joined42904 wrote:

Here is another consequence I see of certifications: With dual elite melee classes like master commando/TKM not using major harvesters...there will be fewer resources actioned by them and their guilds. As it is now, auctioned resources are purchased by the established carftsmen/women at prices they (since they have the money) can afford. With certifications, younger craftsmen will have the ability to acquire new resources at not too far behind the rate of the established crafters, and the established folks will probably pay more for resources due to having to buy them from folks who are foregoing their own use of the resources at a future date. I have nothing against the established crafters. Trust me...there's plenty of markup in 450k for a suit of composite to come down a bit if the crafter wants to or to pay a bit more for the resources required to make it.

lol, how does removing the ability to mine from the majority of the players going to make "younger craftsmen will have the ability to aquire new resources at not too far behind the rate of established crafters"?

I mean... if there's less of something... the price goes up not down. This assumption here is so illogical I have to shake my head in bemusement.

and you want "established folks will probably pay more for resources due to having to buy them from folks who are foregoing their own use of the resouces".

Man I already pay enough for resouces. 50 cpu for some things. 100cpu for others. 10 cpu for basic stuff. Resource prices are high enough. And this is with my ability to harvest with 2 and sometimes 3 accounts. The only resource prices that are depressed because of the mass harvesting is grind materials, and they still make a profit at 2cpu.

So I still say no to this big old nerf whine by a handfull of people (get a grip, a majority of players would be something that gets talked about every week, not something brought up this once by a handfull of new players), who certainly do not represent the "majority" of players.

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Sre'dni Vashtar - Bria
sv Armoury -4976, 2712 Corellia

Srednii

Fri May 14, 2004 10:49 pm

#107

Sinist wrote:

Sure, well as it is right now the economy is so saturated and people have so much resources that it is ruining the crafting professions. Players with access to guilds and wahtnot have enormous resources. This in turns leads to excessive production and flood of the economy. Give crafters harvester certifications and you will see a much normal production rate which will probably balance the majority of crafters on scale with each other. There will always be good crafters and better items but on a much widespread scale then currently because more people will have the oppurtunity to sell their carfted items You make more money with your crafter becuase there are endless supplies of resources which means you can mass produce anything you want if you were in a guild or had a few friends. It woudlnt take away any earning potential it would just balance it.

Ruining the crafting professions... funny... my proff doesn't seem ruined. Weaponsmithing doesn't seem to be ruined. Are DE's and Architects ruined? I think chefs are about at the opposite of ruined right now. Tailors... tailors might be classable as "ruined" but that's more cause they've been ignored by the devs for 11 months.

So which crafting proff is ruined?

And where's this excessive flood of production? If an excess of items is produced... that leads to lower prices right? My ubese is selling steadily at 280k a suit. Prices for weapons (I buy, so this is just from a consumers point of view) are climbing. The standard for top notch regular weapons used to be around 10k on bria, but lately it's been creeping up.... not going down like they would if there were too many weapons being made.

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Sre'dni Vashtar - Bria
sv Armoury -4976, 2712 Corellia

Sinist

Fri May 14, 2004 10:58 pm

#108

sred actually you are in the minority not the majority right now.

and calling people whiners doesnt help if someone with the power that be would of read your thread.

i do think prices would come down because it would eliminate mass production on the ridiculous scale. and you paying 100 or 500cu resources is your barter not ours and it shoudlnt reflect the norm.

if you cut out the ridiculous mass production that means crafters if they want to continue on that path would have to buy up other crafters resources. since with harvester certification its going to "balance" the resources you liekly wont see large stockpiling(mass production)and resource stockpiling on any huge scale. This will open up the avenues for ALL crafters to make as much of a living as they could. There will be more competition for prices and prices will go down.

If thats not how economics works then I dont know maybe I need to build a rocket and blast myself off the planet and left to drift in space with nothing but snickers bars and water and a radio receiver that tries to pick up other civilizations radio transmissions because i am in the wrong place right now. sred i know what you posted made sense but it owuldnt work like that. And I know logically sred what you said should make sense but I would bet 1000000 credits its doesnt in SWG land.

Faiereon Exek
Master Artisan

Sinist

Fri May 14, 2004 11:08 pm

#109

Sred I think you need to be directed at the SWG economic report.

6% of the people in SWG own 96% of ALL money in SWG.

The economy is broken and unbalanced and it allows people to monopolize. What you dont realize is that prices are high becuase there is a monopoly on the economy. Its like who else can you buy a decent operating system from except microsoft? Noone really. Cant Microsoft realistically charge whatever they want without worry? Yeah they could but will people buy at insane prices. No. But that is the same exact situation in SWG if you dont like the prices dont buy it.

The crafting professions are ruined not because there is no living to be made but because there is too much of a living to be made. The game doesnt have integrity if everyone can mass produce 1000s of items a day. The game doesnt have integrity when there are ENORMOUS stockpiles of the best resources floating around in the hands of very few. The game doesnt have integrity when guilds have come on the forums over and over and say how easy it is to fill up an entire guild hall with weapons and armor of the damn near best quality like a joke. The game has no integrity when there are people who got ahead of this system so early on that they can effectively buy out whatever you can churn out and then monopolize on all the buisness that comes there way because they bought and own everything.

The crafting profession is broken because there is no competition for prices. Which makes prices higher. And the economy has no integrity or balance. This is a game and we should start treating it like one not capitalist or communist Earth. We need balance for the sake of the game and for the sanity of fun.

Faiereon Exek
Master Artisan

Srednii

Fri May 14, 2004 11:14 pm

#110

And if you actually read that report you'd see that they said the money spread in the game follows real life trends, and that they're not displeased with it being so.

Not broken.

And once again, decreasing the amount of resources available to the player base does not mean lower prices. It does not "open up the avenues for ALL crafters to make as much of a living as they could.". How is this concept so difficult to comprehend? Less of commodity A drives the price up, not down.

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Sre'dni Vashtar - Bria
sv Armoury -4976, 2712 Corellia

Sinist

Fri May 14, 2004 11:28 pm

#111

Ok well Sredd we will leave that up to SOE to decide then since we cant agree.

If there is more competition there is lesser prices. Look at the trend between Intel and AMD. Or Nvidia and ATI. Or Lays potato chips and Frito lay.

Lays potato chips used to be almost 1.50$ for a bag of chips. Now there prices are almost comparable to no name shaws chips at just about 1.00$ becuase everyone was buying the cheaper potato chips. So if you cut out the huge amount of resources your going to loosen up the monopolies and give the crafters an equal playing field. This is going to make crafters the only ones selling resources. There will be alot that try and outbuy everyone and with the amount of money people have now are going to persuade alot of people to sell them their resources. Eventually this will balance out. Once it does then people are going to be pretty much on the same production lines as everyone else. There will be alot of sales spread around. Eventually after some of the money is sucekd out of the economy and more balanced then you will see the competition of prices so people have their "first stop shopping" vendors they are liekly to look at first for any available items. Sure at first we wont see much change becuase of the amount of money in the game and the stockpiles. Eventually it will balance and we will see things like the potato chip example where there is truebalance inproduction andpeople start competing for prices.

Thats how I see it in my eyes anyways.

Faiereon Exek
Master Artisan

Guruweaver

Sat May 15, 2004 12:26 am

#112

joined42904 wrote:
Guruweaver,
Will you please share this thread with the devs? Thanks.

I have. Harvester certification is certainly fodder for interesting debate. All my other threads regarding this issue have passed without official comment.

We'll see. I'd like to see the debate from their perspective.

Take care,

--
Former Artisan Correspondent
Eoto LightDark, MIA, TestCenter
Noeco, Trader (Engineering) Chilastra
Atren, Medic, Chilastra

Srednii

Sat May 15, 2004 1:16 am

#113

I love it, every time I shoot down one of yourillogical arguments you ignore it and change tack. 2 broken links and a webpage about economics doesn't trump what I said.

I'd like to list here some of the illogical and senseless arguments Sinist has put forth.

Sinist: 6% of the people in SWG own 96% of ALL money in SWG. The economy is broken and unbalanced and it allows people to monopolize. this is normal, not broken. and there are no monopolies

Sinist: The crafting professions are ruined not because there is no living to be made but because there is too much of a living to be made. hello! we're ruined cause we're doing too well... um... ok?

Sinist: The crafting profession is broken because there is no competition for prices. Which makes prices higher. never mind that I have a bunch of armorsmiths competing with me. never mind that sinist and his nerf buds want to make for less competition amongst resource sellers. Never mind that decreasing the amount of resources available to armorsmiths would make for less items made, and less competition.

Sinist: sred actually you are in the minority not the majority right now. one thread in the past 11 months about this subject doesn't make it something the majority want

Sinist: I do think prices would come down because it would eliminate mass production on the ridiculous scale. and you paying 100 or 500cu resources is your barter not ours and it shoudlnt reflect the norm. hello! model T? FORD? ring a bell? mass production lowers prices, not the lack of mass production. And my paying 100cpu for some resources is the norm, the norm that you want to change by making resources rarer and more expensive

Sinist:right now the economy is so saturated and people have so much resources that it is ruining the crafting professions well, my proff isn't ruined, and the others seem to be doing ok too. I still havn't gotten any strait answers as to whats ruined, and how it's ruined.

And this is just this page of this thread. I still especially like where Sinist is calling for Factories to require a master artisan cert to use a couple pages back. Never mind that none of the crafting classes can make much of ANYTHING without constant factory work.

Message Edited by Srednii on 05-15-2004 03:52 AM

Message Edited by Srednii on 05-15-2004 03:56 AM

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Sre'dni Vashtar - Bria
sv Armoury -4976, 2712 Corellia

Sinist

Sat May 15, 2004 7:10 am

#114

I made my logical argument. Your just confortable with denouncing it while saying your argument is right. You have shown no proof, no numbers, NOTHING to prove it. You have just said "No thats not the way it is". Anybody can make your argument. I base mine on the way economy and game balance works not by 1 person's personal crusade to come on this thread and denounce everything we have to say because you have posting rights on a forum.

The links werent real I just posted them because I personally think you needed the almost troll and abrasiveness that you give us.

Anybody can say something is wrong like you do but you cant prove anything you say. You have shown time and time again you have really no idea how economy or balance works in the real world or in a video game. EVERYONE has come on to this thread and has agreed with the main goal and just expressed maybe a concern about how it owuld affect other professions. NOONE has disagreed with the idea just wanted to make sure if compensations were needed to other areas of the game if need be. The ONLY one who has failed to come to our enlightenment is yourself and your forum trolling no brain statements that "This is the way it is becuase i say it".

Now I await your typical response in "Well umm you didnt prove your point either". I proved my point with my logic. You proved your point by saying things we all disagree with. You cant back up what you say without being laughed at.

Sinist: The crafting professions are ruined not because there is no living to be made but because there is too much of a living to be made. hello! we're ruined cause we're doing too well... um... ok?

Your inability to even see the problem is brilliant. You cent even use simple logic in comprehending that if there are huge stockpiles and amounts of resources and mass producing going around that the game doesnt have integrity.

Sinist: sred actually you are in the minority not the majority right now. one thread in the past 11 months about this subject doesn't make it something the majority want

Actually Sred I bought SWG on the day it came out and this has been pretty much raised since release and shortly after. And there are about a dozen posts I could link you to in the last month or two alone. Again your not making any kind of argument that can vouch for your sanity here.

Sinist: I do think prices would come down because it would eliminate mass production on the ridiculous scale. and you paying 100 or 500cu resources is your barter not ours and it shoudlnt reflect the norm. hello! model T? FORD? ring a bell? mass production lowers prices, not the lack of mass production. And my paying 100cpu for some resources is the norm, the norm that you want to change by making resources rarer and more expensive

You paying 100cpu for a resource is your personal agenda not the norm. You should be harvesting the resources yourself. You have more then enough harvesters to harvest enough resources to have decent production. The way it is right now there are enough resources for everyone to have insane production. The game doesnt need everyone harvesting resources. The only people who need the resources for the most part are the crafters and they have harvesters themselves so why does everyone need them? This is the point your not evenw illing to comprehend because all you see out of it is more work and elss resources and you rpoducing less. This is where the game balance comes in and you just want to shun this away so you can continue playing a game with no integrity.

Sinist:right now the economy is so saturated and people have so much resources that it is ruining the crafting professions well, my proff isn't ruined, and the others seem to be doing ok too. I still havn't gotten any strait answers as to whats ruined, and how it's ruined.

Actually almost every post we have made has given you more then enough straight answers. As the saying goes "get your head out of the gutter".

Sinist: The crafting profession is broken because there is no competition for prices. Which makes prices higher. never mind that I have a bunch of armorsmiths competing with me. never mind that sinist and his nerf buds want to make for less competition amongst resource sellers. Never mind that decreasing the amount of resources available to armorsmiths would make for less items made, and less competition.

OK since you failed to read all of my lazt dozen posts I will post it again in hope that you will actually READ it. There will be more competition because peoples production will be right in line with everyone else which will lead to more competitive pricing and reduced prices. I dont know about you but im gonna get off my lazy you know what and actually harvest the best resources I can. Because you cant harvest good resources on your own pretty much means that you basically shouldnt be acquiring them anyways. So instead of just spitting out a thread every 5 minutes denouncing what we say why dont you try and PROVE the point instead of just saying it. Learn economy. Learn Logic. And learn game design. And learn the meaning of the word INTEGRITY.

I hoped I proved a point this time and you will read it and not fire off another thread after reading the first 2 sentences to try and save your immoral views of how computer games should work.

Faiereon Exek
Master Artisan

Srednii

Sat May 15, 2004 8:24 am

#115

lol, once again because you say it's so the economys ruined, and there's no game integrity (whatever that means).

Once again without any proof, or in game experience the crafting classes are ruined by your say so.

I do mine most of my own resources, the resources I'm talking about, the ones that I buy, are the ones that I missed cause I wasn't looking for em 6 months ago. They're the ones that havn't spawned with any quality for 6 months on my server (intrusive ore, crism ore, axidite iron, high qual polymer). Because there wasn't enough of these materials mined (ie the existing "glut" you claim miraculously missed these materials)

I also bought generic high qual steel and iron for a batch of psgs (which arn't selling alas). (paid for near shift at 10cpu. and yet somehow combat players with harvs are ruining the resource economy)

I also buy grind stuff when I need to make synth/rfp/fiberpanels, and when I made all the components for my psg run. Bought mostly at 3cpu, some at 2 cpu. Again profit to the miners, some of whom I'm sure were small time single account harvesting operations.

I'm fairly self sufficient because I have access to 3 accounts worth of lots, and you want to take that away from me because according to the word of Sinist the economys broken (devs don't agree), the crafting classes are all ruined (coulda fooled the people who're actually playing those classes), and there are monopolies all over (I'll tell my competitors they're not alowed to make armor anymore cause I'm a monopoly).

After statements of yours like "prices will come down once there's less mass production" I really don't see where you have the gall to claim I have no clue about economics.

My advice to you Sinist, is advance to one of the elite crafting classes, gather resources for a couple months, and join the economy, instead of sitting here whining after a week that you can't compete.

Message Edited by Srednii on 05-15-2004 10:30 AM

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Sre'dni Vashtar - Bria
sv Armoury -4976, 2712 Corellia

Srednii

Sat May 15, 2004 12:25 pm

#116

What monopolies? There are no monopolies. Bria, there's a small handfull of top end weaponsmiths, and then the 2nd tier weaponsmiths of which there are tons.

Armorsmiths, there's 2 or 3 top tier armorsmiths, and then there's a fair number of 2nd tier armorsmiths (I belong in this catagory).

Resource wholesales, scattered all over. There's no one resource shop that gets all the resources sales. There's resource shops in most big (non ghost town) player cities. Big malls almost always have resource vendors.

So where are these monopolies?

I just don't see how reducing the amount of minerals mined by a huge margin will help the little guy. Those rich players (the 6% with 90% of the wealth) will always be rich, they will always be able to buy the resources they need. Do you really think the little crafters will be able to compete with them for a much smaller resource pool?

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Sre'dni Vashtar - Bria
sv Armoury -4976, 2712 Corellia

Sinist

Sat May 15, 2004 12:57 pm

#117

www.deductivethinking.com

www.economy.com

www.gameintegrity.org

Faiereon Exek
Master Artisan

Artisan Archive

Thread: Master Artisan, the Welfare profession?