Artisan Archive

BlackSTR4,

First of all, thank you for agreeing with us that allowing everyone to obtain inorganic resoruces and only scouts/rangers to obtain organic resources seems unfair. When something seems unfair, it usually is.

You ask what non-artisans can do with piles of steel other than sell it. The same thing a ranger without craft skills (and remember how many points the ranger line costs so you can tell me how many points you think that ranger has to master crafts and still be able to actually kill the things he's harvesting). Our proposal would still let non-master artisans use some harvesters...they could use mediums if they took the entire surveying line. But they'd have to get skills to use those harvesters. And those skills are going to come directly out of the character's combat effectiveness so that there is some sort of opportunity cost to being able to be a resource miner.

I don't know anyone who became an artisan to simply sell resources. But the master artisan box and the survey skills box have been reduced significantly in value by allowing anyone with a waypoint to harvest inorganic resources as efficiently as someone who has earned the "miner" title.

Most of us would rather craft. I agree. But often artisans are shut off from good resource locations by folks who are online at the time of the resource shift and who use slots from their non-artisan alternate characters and their guildmates' non-artisan characters to get the best spots. Such that coming a few hours after the shift with surveying skills of 4 is no assurance that you will even get a spot as good and efficient as the melee folks in someone else's guild when it comes to harvesting needed high-quality resources.

Artisans are here for a lot of reasons. Not just crafting. And those reasons include surveying and resource extraction. Who besides an artisan can extract inorganic resources without a machine?

Hehe it was my attempt at good old fashioned revolt!

Honestly if you goto the top 5 thread, the question thread, and this thread and count up all the people that advocate the idea and divide it by the total number of different people posting in the threads you will note that this idea and concern is very much the majority.

Also note that the current top 5doesnt even reflect 5% of our opinions in the last few months. Its like you and 1 other person. So maybebecuase I didnt insult you or break any forum rules this is the EXACT thing im supposed to do to give you maybe a wake up call. You have no rightto say that I should aproachit differently. In fact SOE says ifthe communtiy feels not happy with the current sorrespondant to say so. Im within the rules so please dont tryt o obfuscate theproblem I have with you by making me out to be the bad guy.

Show me Master Artisan Correspondant where our currentt op 5 reflects the majority or our top isuues and I will gladly go there and eitherexpress my ideas or retract my statement thatour top 5 needs to be updated. It definatly isnt on this forum.

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Sinist wrote:

Hehe it was my attempt at good old fashioned revolt!

Honestly if you goto the top 5 thread, the question thread, and this thread and count up all the people that advocate the idea and divide it by the total number of different people posting in the threads you will note that this idea and concern is very much the majority.

Also note that the current top 5 doesnt even reflect 5% of our opinions in the last few months. Its like you and 1 other person. So maybe becuase I didnt insult you or break any forum rules this is the EXACT thing im supposed to do to give you maybe a wake up call. You have no right to say that I should aproach it differently. In fact SOE says if the communtiy feels not happy with the current sorrespondant to say so. Im within the rules so please dont tryt o obfuscate the problem I have with you by making me out to be the bad guy.

Show me Master Artisan Correspondant where our currentt op 5 reflects the majority or our top isuues and I will gladly go there and either express my ideas or retract my statement that our top 5 needs to be updated. It definatly isnt on this forum.

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Guru please be real with me.

Your being way too sensitive to take that as a personal attack. It has nothing to do with you personally. Not alot of time has passed since I have been apart of this community so I maybe am overreacting to the whole idea that our issues dont seem to reflect in ANY way our majority issues. But also the fact you even posted in the first place that I am wrong or my displeasure is innopriate was uncalled for and reflects bad on the job you are supposed to do. Instead of saying im wrong and that pfff my ideas reflected my own and noone elses is clearly a laugh. Go back read the threads and count up all the people. Im not alone and not even in any minority either.

So honestly guru come again? You told me I coudlnt post my displeasure with what you do. You told me that I had the opinion of myself and it wasnt anything in any sort of majority so I had no right to complain that it wasnt being acknowledged. ALl this leads me to beleive your either 1) not paying attention or 2) Just rude.

So yeah I did send in a PM to thunderheart directing him to this thread and MANY others that clearly relfects on your inability to handle the current poisition on my opinion. I have been the only person to take displeasure with the job you do so Ill leave that up to Thunderheart to make that call or anyone else who wants to chime in here. Its not a personal attack its simply buisness. Like in RL if I didnt buy your product becuase it wasnt as good or cheap as someone elses is not a personal attack, its just the world of buisness. I dont know you in Real Life and you very may well be a wholeheartedly good person, but that has nothing to do with your job here at SWG. Your supposed to reflect the Artisanc ommunity and bring up our concerns with SOE. When you start a personal crusade against one person who disagrees with you and makes up rules saying I cant post that or its innopriate obviously is wrong. If you say that our ideas arent a majority becuase they go against your own personal top 5 issues obviously is wrong.

So you do your job and ill do mine. If you dont do your job well then be sure im going to say something. And well my job is only playing SWG and following the rules set forth by SOE.

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outtacontrol wrote:
first let me say that i am pleased with all the responses to my thread both for and against. and after reading most of them i will still say that the dev's are very capable of working out a solution to this issue. lets look at the facts.

Fact: inorganic resources can be harvested by anyone and in huge quantities unrestricted

Fact: only scouts can harvest animal organics and increased yields with increased skill level

these 2 facts alone make for a long debate. with good points coming from both sides but the strongest in my opinion is balance. the dev's balanced the combat professions I think its the crafting profeesions turn.In my opinion any elitecrafting profession should be able to utilize heavy equipment to collect needed resources. but how is it a combat class player with no invested skills in crafting not 1 skill point be able harvest with same yields as artisan or any of the elite crafting porfessions. ok someone sends a waypoint! ok if I dont have scout you can send me waypoints to all the creatures in the galaxy and i may slay them all but i wont be harvesting not unit of hide,meat or bone without investing skill points into scout. i too have an alt character who i have laying harvesters but is it in the best interest to do so. i think not, resource dealers will always be there but the difference is they will more skill point committed to do so. the second point i want to make is that a pure crafter can not benefit from combat style financial endeavors. in other words the player who is architect/artisan/merchant wont be collecting the loot on a krayt dragon in this lifetime but the master commando/rifleman will and he will be harvesting inorganic resources while he is killing the krayt.How can you not see the imbalance here!
Outta

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1) Most Master Commandos don't have Scouting skills

2) Commandos suck at fighting Krayts and must join in with large groups to do so...leading to a split in the profits...leading to the ability to make more via mineral harvesting and selling then hunting...

Not every combat player has Scouting abilities...Many of us make our income by running missions, selling loot, and harvesting minerials for sale...To gain the big money making loot to sell we often take large damage to our armor, have to be buffed, etc and all this costs money...We are forced to find other means to suppliment our incomes...So many use harvestors...And with so many using this path, Architects do better because they sell more harvestors...If you take the Architect Harvestor sales from what they currently are and reduce them to a tenth of what they currently are (it would actually be more drastic I'm sure) how do you think that profession would react? How manyHarvestors are sold each day on average? Nowask yourself, how many of those are just artisan? If you cut the average Combat Profession Players (some who doesn't hunt and kill Krayts)income, where do you think the money will come from to buy crafted items?

Message Edited by garvin on 05-14-2004 01:48 PM

Guruweaver,

Thanks again for sharing this with the devs. I appreciate it. All anyone should really ask of a correspondent is that he or she share concerns with the people who make the decisions...the devs. I apologize for the rudeness directed toward you by other folks who agree with my concerns regarding certifications.

I note that the commando correspondent seems opposed to not being able to use harvesters any more than an artisan can use a flamethrower. There are flamethrower certifications and even basic marksman certifications for novice marksman (in the commando tree) and for novice brawler (also in the commando tree), right? And Stim A/Stim B use requires novice medic, right?

All credits in the game are either looted or paid out from missions, right? (Aside from those unfortunate duped credits caused by a bug I can't believe wasn't discovered before release of the game.) This generally means that all credits flow through the hands of the combat classes and those other classes who run missions. And if you've done any artisan missions, you will understand that few artisans do those missions. They're very time-consuming for what you get in my experience, though you do figure out how to use a survey tool. Some crafters are ONLY crafters with no combat skills.

Will prices go down if certifications are implemented? I honestly don't know. Perhaps they will. If the combat classes don't have the funds to buy armor, the price of armor will drop. I'm an aspiring armorsmith, but honestly 450k to 1 mil for armor gave me sticker shock when I first looked into the price of good composite. So does 12k for a buff give me sticker shock. Folks can only charge what the combat classes are willing to pay for items used by the combat classes. Right? So I don't think you in the combat classes really have much to worry about as a consequence of the proposed changes. Other than maybe there will be fewer armorsmiths able to make the absolute very best armor in creation because they have fewer of the resources.

I'm not sure master artisans will make out like bandits from the proposed changes. I care less about how much money my character makes than I do about game realism and playing the roles of the character you have chosen to become. And of course you can always change your mind about what you want to be.

Many members of the combat classes take some skills in medic even if they don't pursue it too far. If basic personals used at efficiency BER 1 regardless of rated extraction rate were included as a part of novice medic (as some have suggested...the actual certifications seem less agreed on in the thread than the need for certifications) you would still be able to extract some resources.

Did say that it was hard to make money if you are in a Combat Profession, just that it's easier and quickerto do it if you use harvestors...Go look at ever Trade forum for all the proof you need...I belive statistics say that only about 20% of all the players in game use these forums...look at the folks on the trade forums making the big bucks...you tend to see 2 key things:

1) It's typically the same group of people

2) It's typically not Commandos or Bounty Hunters

Because of this,many Combat professions make the bulk of their income from harvestors...what would happen ingame if you removed this key source of income for these professions? How would that inturn effect the crafting community?

When I first started out it took a long time before I could take down the big kills and get decent loot...I used harvestors to suppliment my income so I could keep upgrading my armor and weapons...It would have been a lot slower climb had I been forced to rely on running missions...I would have spent money at a slower pace...not imagine all new players out there in the same boat, spending credits at a slower rate...

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Sinist wrote:

Guru please be real with me.

Your being way too sensitive to take that as a personal attack. It has nothing to do with you personally. Not alot of time has passed since I have been apart of this community so I maybe am overreacting to the whole idea that our issues dont seem to reflect in ANY way our majority issues. But also the fact you even posted in the first place that I am wrong or my displeasure is innopriate was uncalled for and reflects bad on the job you are supposed to do. Instead of saying im wrong and that pfff my ideas reflected my own and noone elses is clearly a laugh. Go back read the threads and count up all the people. Im not alone and not even in any minority either.

So honestly guru come again? You told me I coudlnt post my displeasure with what you do. You told me that I had the opinion of myself and it wasnt anything in any sort of majority so I had no right to complain that it wasnt being acknowledged. ALl this leads me to beleive your either 1) not paying attention or 2) Just rude.

So yeah I did send in a PM to thunderheart directing him to this thread and MANY others that clearly relfects on your inability to handle the current poisition on my opinion. I have been the only person to take displeasure with the job you do so Ill leave that up to Thunderheart to make that call or anyone else who wants to chime in here. Its not a personal attack its simply buisness. Like in RL if I didnt buy your product becuase it wasnt as good or cheap as someone elses is not a personal attack, its just the world of buisness. I dont know you in Real Life and you very may well be a wholeheartedly good person, but that has nothing to do with your job here at SWG. Your supposed to reflect the Artisanc ommunity and bring up our concerns with SOE. When you start a personal crusade against one person who disagrees with you and makes up rules saying I cant post that or its innopriate obviously is wrong. If you say that our ideas arent a majority becuase they go against your own personal top 5 issues obviously is wrong.

So you do your job and ill do mine. If you dont do your job well then be sure im going to say something. And well my job is only playing SWG and following the rules set forth by SOE.

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Garvin if harvester certifications went in its not going to be hard to make like a automatic decay rate slower then then the normal condition you have to maintain with maintenance fees. This will still make people buying harvesters all the time. Like if every 3 weeks you had to replace your harvesters.

I agree with you ever combat class doesnt have scout and cant harvest the best organic resources but they can also kill NPC's and do kill missions. And not all rare loot are harvested materials. Some items drop off NPC's like maybe a rare weapon or etc. No scouting skills needed.

With no numbers gavin I dont think you can sway my opinion with your argument. How much do you on average loot off a high end NPC? How much on average do you make off single or grouped combat missions? What are the daily costs on average for a commando? How frequent are useable and valuable loot items dropped? How do faction missions pay(yes I know not everyone belongs to a faction)? Without arguiing these points and more numbers like how much are armor repairs etc its kind of mute in my opinion.

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Sinist wrote:

Garvin if harvester certifications went in its not going to be hard to make like a automatic decay rate slower then then the normal condition you have to maintain with maintenance fees. This will still make people buying harvesters all the time. Like if every 3 weeks you had to replace your harvesters.

I agree with you ever combat class doesnt have scout and cant harvest the best organic resources but they can also kill NPC's and do kill missions. And not all rare loot are harvested materials. Some items drop off NPC's like maybe a rare weapon or etc. No scouting skills needed.

With no numbers gavin I dont think you can sway my opinion with your argument. How much do you on average loot off a high end NPC? How much on average do you make off single or grouped combat missions? What are the daily costs on average for a commando? How frequent are useable and valuable loot items dropped? How do faction missions pay(yes I know not everyone belongs to a faction)? Without arguiing these points and more numbers like how much are armor repairs etc its kind of mute in my opinion.

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Well...let me give you some numbers from my experiences BEFORE heat resists started working in a location I use to get my best loot from...I use to frequent the Aakuan Caves a lot...It would take me maybe 45 minutes to an hour to clear the cave on average...With each clearing I'd typically average 1 or 2 decent skill mods (nothing higher then a +6) and 1 or 2 Enhance Aakuan items (clothing or rings)...These skill mods were never any experimentation for any profession, so no big bucks there....The hottest Item for resale value is the Rings (typically sell for around 250K each) but they only drop maybe one out of5 times you clear the cave. The cave then would take about 30 minutes up to an hour to re-pop...On average I would say I made (including money that comes from just looking in a loot box) about 25K after selling things on average (more if I got a ring or 2)...Then you have to subtract what I spent in stim packs and other items used...In a day, if I was lucky to get a ring, I could clear a nice amount...

Now you have to factor in that it wasn't long before I wasn't the only one visiting this cave...that meant I was lucky to get any good loot at all during a day with many people clearing the cave and then camping for the next pop...so somedays I'd make nothing...

Using Harvestors I could sell items to friends or put things on bazaar vendors...I made a much better profit there then I ever did looting up until that point...

I have a Master Architect/Master DE/Master Artisan as my alt and I can assure you that my Crafter makes much more then my Commando does easily...and I play my Commando more then my Crafter...All the proof I need is right there...

Here is another consequence I see of certifications: With dual elite melee classes like master commando/TKM not using major harvesters...there will be fewer resources actioned by them and their guilds. As it is now, auctioned resources are purchased by the established carftsmen/women at prices they (since they have the money) can afford. With certifications, younger craftsmen will have the ability to acquire new resources at not too far behind the rate of the established crafters, and the established folks will probably pay more for resources due to having to buy them from folks who are foregoing their own use of the resources at a future date. I have nothing against the established crafters. Trust me...there's plenty of markup in 450k for a suit of composite to come down a bit if the crafter wants to or to pay a bit more for the resources required to make it.

Garvin, my other toon is an aspiring bounty hunter. So I know exactly what economic forces you are talking about. And I sympathize. (Due to the duping bug that operates to the detriment of new players like myself, I sort of wish SOE had devalued the currency when this was discovered...add a zero to all mission payouts and maintenence charges that haven't already been paid, all travel costs, etc....it wouldn't have taken long to equalize and new players wouldn't suffer.) Of course I'm on the Kauri server, where folks are very friendly and I have been helped a lot by more experienced players who just enjoy showing new folks the game. I imagine some of this goes on everywhere.

I think the solution to commandos and bounty hunters is a combat revamp, not letting them place harvesters. And any profession that gets "squeezed" financially during the change will probably have more attention paid to their issues by the devs. Personally, I think how good your profession is in combat overall should be directly proportional to the points you had to spend to get there. Or is that a newbish notion? I've heard that master dancer/TKM beats MBH and MCommando but I haven't actually seen it. If you can't solo Krayts and some other profession can, that is what is out of balance...and I think that's what commandos and BHs should be more concerned about than getting to continue usingharvesters.

I think having harvester certificationsWILL makemaster artisan considerably better. Mostcrafter-types keep ourmerchant tree and our engineering tree as those are pre-reqs tomany other professions and to having vendors/getting on the overhead map.Theyusually eventually drop the survey line. And not everyone ever takes the domestic arts line. Master Artisan (unlike master marksman)as a whole isn't a pre-req for any other profession...so it's supposedly an end in itself. More people wouldprobably keep master artisan if survey-line relatedharvestercertifications were added.

Isn't there a reason to keep all the skill trees in the commando line?And keep in mind please that it's our surveying skill tree that lets us efficiently extract resources from the ground. The connection of this line withharvester certificationsseems obvious.