Artisan Archive

Here is a responce for Scooter.

If I have to pay 15 skill points to stick myself with a needle, or cut the meat/hide from a dead animal, and if the DEVs are soo sure they want things like droids to require the use of skill points..... Why not limit everyone, Only an artisian can place a heavy harvester.

If you want to keep your heavy harvesters for free, then let me be able to stick myself with a needle for FREE, let me cut meat from animals for FREE.

That's not what the DEVs want, they want us to spend our skill points, to reduce the number of people that can do things, so reduce harvesters and the DEVs get what they want, everyone will be novice professions just so they can do what anyone in our world can do.

Make the ability to use a speeder into a novice profession, make it cost us 15 skill points like everything else.

Make using shuttleports and spaceports into a skill that requires us to pay 5 skill points to get it.

The fact is that the DEVs have said they want us to use our skill points, free harvesters don't do that.

I say let everyone use harvesters, all of them, and let EVERYONE use stimpack a's, and let EVERYONE be able to harvest meat from critters they kill, just give the Artisian classes bonuses with the harvesters, medics bonuses with the meds, and scouts bonuses with the harvesting of corpses.

There, one star me all you want, but the fact is I can stick myself in the arm with a needle, I can fire a rifle, I can drive a car, I can build a desk, I can do a lot of things.... And I never once had to "forget" how to do something just so I could learn somthing else. Make the forgetting of skills into negative modifiers or make the basic professions novice levels cost less skill points. I think paying 5 points to stick myself with a needle or cut meat from an animal would be fair, and it would help the economy, not hurt it.

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Hell_Bane wrote:

B) Reduce lot limit to 5 for non-artisans; +1 every step up surveyor screen. This allows for3 harvesters, a house, and a partridge in a pear tree.

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Jahandar wrote:

No you don't, Ashrid. All you have to do is look for other people's harvesters and put one beside it. Then there are always the websites, word of mouth, etc.

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Have you ever tried this? It is a royal PITA. You see a bunch of mineral harvesters. But what are they harvesting? Gems? Ore? Steel? Iron? Copper? Aluminum? Andeach classof material have 5-6 sub types. Not to mention quality of the material.

Youdon't need to be an architect to place a house.I don't see why you need to be an artisian to place a harvester. However,really need to be aartisan with survey4 to use harvesters effectivly. Otherwise your justusing the shotgun approach.

Here is a response for spiritdrake

The issue is not that doing some things requires skills, the issue is the taking away of something that can be done by everyone and placing it in the hands of a very small minority that has vast economic impacts that will effect everyone.

Earlier (on page 3) I listed 6 issues that would need to be addressed. As of yet no one has. Your points have been interated all through this thread and there is nothing new here except more rambling.

What is needed is the issues addressed that this would cause. The affects to the crafting classes is too severe not to address them beforehand. Architects alone would lose 80-90% of their sales. And dont forget there are crafting classes not based off the artisan tree which will be severely impacted.

What is needed are hard facts on who is actually doing the mining in each galaxy.

I think you will find it is elite crafters getting their own needs and very few master artisans just mining. And whgat will stop the greed factor.

Without hard statistics form SOE anything said on that is pure speculation.

Hard facts are required.

However I can tell you this. If the current mining system is left alone and Artisans or a mining profession just recrieve bonuses and additional skills like refining there will be a positive ecconomic impact.

In fact you will probably findmost elite crafters would rather stop mining so they can concentrate on their crafting. As I have stated before crafters and especially the medical profession mine from necessity and not because they wish to do it. So why force something away that is needed and shoot the economy in the head. Take the positive approach and remove the need by just asking for bonuses for artisans/miners.

This taking away things is basiclly control issues on the part of a few. The economics facts is if you remove the need with bonuses and in fact if the prices fall and the positive impact is retrieved you will find the elite crafters will stop mining on their own.Now if the bonuses do not work and reduce the price and increase the quiality the economy that affects everyone will not suffer.

Placing the economy in turmoil with no hard facts is not the answer

I have found that I'm am starting to really be opposed to the limitation of mining instillations. Granted the artisans want their skill points to be worth more and its sort of a slap in the face that everyone can use harvestors but not everyone can use medicin or harvest meat. I think the use of stim A's and maybe stim B's should be usuable by all, but thats for another forum.

I do think the artisans should be givent a significant bonus to harvesting because of their investment in skill points. Furthermore the mining profession should be added on top of that with skills that increase efficiency, BER. Also I would like to see the introduction of breakdowns, transportation and alloys. Breakdowns force more effort to mine, which has both a good and bad aspect but also it could allow for continuning architect involvement in mining. Automated transportation would be loved by all and make a use for BLL. Alloys would also be loved by all elite crafting professions. It would be much better to have someone make a good, rare resource, than have to wait weeks and pay through the teeth.

Also ith the introduction of the miner and while not liming the harvesting of resources to artisans, the price of resources would drop drastically making everyone happy. Miners would have the advantage because they would be selling in bulk at low rates.

So, don't limint harvestors, in the end it makes everyone happy.(everyone being people who buy resources

From reading another thread I realized something. Most of the undercutters on the market harvest their own resources. They can sell their products at less than 3cpu and make a profit independant of the current resource market. That means that there are a lot of people that can sell like this.

This bring upa goodpoints:

Restricting mining to artisan survey line would mean that resource prices would go up, but less people would be able to mine all their own resources due to the lack of lot swaping. If less people are mining their own resources they would have to buy resources at market price and sell at higher to make a profit. Granted their would be the few who would still mine their own resources, but it would cause the products to inflate along with the resources. In the end, the combat professions would not be able to afford the high inflations so everyone would cut prices. It would be a little tight for the combat people for a little while, but it would probably get under control realitively fast(debatable but likely).

The game was designed to develop interdependancies. By restricting harvestors this makes some people develop these relationships. Fighters are dependant on weaponsmiths, weaponsmiths are dependant on miners and miners are in turn dependant on weaponsmiths and they are in turn dependant on fighters. The fighters are really the ones that inject the money into the economy. With the mining restricted to artisans or miners it focuses this chain down so the fighters are less likely to be on both ends of the chain. The mininers might be able to inflate the prices and make a killing but the crafters will in turn raise their prices above the market cost., and because there will be less crafter miners then the undercutting will be brought under control and the crafters can sell above market resource price.

The limiting facter is on where the money is injected into the system. Combat professions control that flow. So I really can't see how the miners could take control of the economy, they are the ones that should be most effected by it, not in control of it.(to an extent)

Guess I changed my mind again, but I have a better argument this time

Also, this isn't a wine about not making profits, this is a discussion about if and how to make the game more fun for the crafting professions.

Dosadi,

How in the heck is that a better argument.

What economics class did you take.

"If less people are mining their own resources they would have to buy resources at market price and sell at higher to make a profit. Granted their would be the few who would still mine their own resources, but it would cause the products to inflate along with the resources."

Causing inflation in an inflated economy is a good Idea?

"It would be a little tight for the combat people for a little while, but it would probably get under control realitively fast(debatable but likely)."

How would it get under control? More credits in the game? Printing more money does not make inflation go away.

"The limiting facter is on where the money is injected into the system. Combat professions control that flow. So I really can't see how the miners could take control of the economy, they are the ones that should be most effected by it, not in control of it.(to an extent)"

How would combat professions control that. There is only so many credits a combat profession can earn since because of time constraints there are only so many missions that people can do. What will you do ask SOE to increase mission payouts. Economics 101 says "Printing more money does not make inflation go away". Heaven help the bnoob coming into the game, but that's ok SOE can just start them of with a million credits.

What will you tell the combat professions. "Hey commando you cannot do PvP or be involved in in the GCW because you need to spend all your time at the mission terminal". That will not fly.

"From reading another thread I realized something. Most of the undercutters on the market harvest their own resources.

Umm yes using heavy harvesters you can mine at .5 credits per unit. So why are you all selling stuff at 5-10. Selling stuff at 3 is a 600% profit.

If this is about being undercut does that als mean that maybe you all are participating in the cause of infaltion and there is a little greed here.

First like I have been saying. Address the issues with hard facts. You will find that positive economic approaches work the best in the real world and they will work here. read up on some economics and the ways inflated economies have been cured. This isn't it.

You limit supply demand goes up and the ripple affect happend.

You have no hard facts on how many "true" miners are out there today and not crafters mining what they need. When if you talk to most people tey mine for their own crafting byt woould rather not. That tells me right there that there are not enough "true" miners to take up a mining profession and mine for the galaxy.

How many will be miners?

Find the facts and bring them to the table

They can sell their products at less than 3cpu and make a profit independant of the current resource market. That means that there are a lot of people that can sell like this.

There is no mining profession at present. Everyone can mine. Artisans are designe to give the base skill sets to move to th eite crafting professions. Which includes a skill called survey (not mining) so you can get resources for crafting. This whole Idea that Artisans are miners is ludicrous to begin with. Look at your skills.

The resource market is something invented by players who want to make money selling something people need.

Well that is fine, that is how market driven economies work.

You limit supply however and you cause inflation.

You increase supply however with a positive approach of bonuses you will find crafters saying "is mining worth my time" and you will not see inflation.

Again, please bring facts to the table and not speculation.

First of all, sorry I'm not an economics major.

Its not the inflation thats good, its the leveling of the playing field thats good. It forces more people to feel the effect of the inflation. Solo crafters can dominate the market because they mine their own resources and use lot swaping to increase their production. They can flood the market with cheap goods. Liminting mining capability will allow people who can't, mine, let alone lot swap, to suceed and acutally make a profit. Granted the inflation will take place but it will effect people more evenly.

There are money sources and money sinks in the game. Miners are directly related to the largest money sink, harvestors. Combat profession have access to the main money source, missions. Its a direct flow. Fighter takes a mission, gets money. He then pays the weapon smith for a gun. The weaponsmith pays the miner for resources. The miner puts money into his harvestor. This so called inflation is occuring because there is constantly money entering the system. Its where money comes from in this game. From the very start, combat profession made the money and spent it on crafted goods. They control the money flow. If they won't pay the high prices the craftsmen have to drop their prices and respectively so do the miners.

However, the way it is now solo crafters don't feel the inflation and other crafters have to sell at a very low profit margin(if any at all) to compete.

IIts a different approach to fixing the economy. But it has a much chance of working as adding bonuses to the survey line. As for the facts, its all speculation. No market analysis is widely available for us to really analyze and determine what should be done. It would be cool if we could get SOE to release some of the data that we could do some analysis. Ohh well, have fun ripping this apart.