Artisan Archive
Thread: Limit Harvestors to Artisians
"From reading another thread I realized something. Most of the undercutters on the market harvest their own resources. They can sell their products at less than 3cpu and make a profit independant of the current resource market. That means that there are a lot of people that can sell like this."
Exactly. The problem isn't so much that players are selling at less than the market cost of the resources. The problem is that those players have friends helping them mine their own resources, and are able far outproduce solo players who either rely on their own lots or buy their resources. Some professions (armorsmith and weaponsmith for example) do not feel the effects of this as much, since mining your own resources only gives you about 10% more profit. But other professions, especially the extremely resource hungry Architect and Droid Engineer professions, are hit by this very hard. As an Architect, you either have other people mine for you, or you only sell furniture and harvesters, because that's all you can make a profit from.
By limiting who can use harvesters, and perhaps even what harvesters or how manythey can use at what skill level (similar to weapon certs), those that sell based on what the resources cost them to harvest rather than what the resources cost them to buy will be quite limited in production compared to those who buy their resources. They'll still be able to undercut other people... but if I can make 20 heavy harvesters a week at 700k each, and the undercutter can only make5 heavy harvesters a weekat 150k each, he'll sell out in a day, and I'll have 6 days where I'm the only supplier. It's just like going to a restaurant... I don't care if the food is 50% less expensive for the same food, if I have to wait 3 hours to eat, I'm going somewhere else.
"In the end, the combat professions would not be able to afford the high inflations so everyone would cut prices. It would be a little tight for the combat people for a little while, but it would probably get under control realitively fast(debatable but likely)."
Obviously, the whole idea of this change would be to create more of a seperation between consumers and producers. Since the consumers (combat professions) are currently producing as well, they are relatively unimpacted by the cost of goods and services. Yet, supplying those goods and servicesis theprimary or solepurpose of more than half the professions in this game. The current state of the game is causing a disproportion of consumers vs producers, because the consumers are able to produce as well. Thus, instead of taking up a tradeskill to make money, you just plant some mines and let them make the money for you, and devote 100% of your skillpoints to combat instead. There needs to be a tradeoff here. If you're 100% combat, it SHOULD require more work for you to afford to keep yourself well equipped, because keeping yourself well equipped enhances your character more completely than someone who does some combat and some tradeskills.
There would be a limit to the inflation, obviously. There would also be a greater demand for lower-priced goods, which means there would be a market for non-master tradeskillers. I mean, when was the last time you saw anything other than composite or ubese armor on an armorsmith vendor? It's been a long time for me. What about weapons... see many DLT20a's? I'd wager probably not. There's virtually no market for low-end goods right now. This change would create one, whether its for new people that can't afford the higher level items, or for players who don't do missions often enough to need or afford high-end items.
The other poster talks about the inflated economy... what do you think caused that inflation? Credits only come from two sources... missions and NPC loot. By limiting the miners to tradeskill professions, Combat characters either have to take up these tradeskill professions (thus lowering their ability to introduce new credits into the system, because it's less points spent on combat, and thus, lower quality missions) or rely solely on missions/loot for their income. If they wish to purchase the items they need, as combat professions, that money comes directly out of their surplus. This means that, eventually, combat players would not have a surplus, and would have to do missions to afford their next upgrade. Of course, all of that surplus would instead belong to crafters... so the next great challenge would be finding a way for the game to relieve them of that surplus. Do that, and you'd finally have this economy back on track. The way it's heading right now, new players are getting further and further from being able to afford what they need with each passing day, because there are players in the game with literally hundreds of millions of credits to their name. If you want to see where this game is going, head over to UO. Imagine how different it would be if you could only have one character in UO... you might actually be able to make money as something other than a grandmaster blacksmith for a change.
"1) 95+% of artisans do not mine medical resources and if they do they are too high prices given the high OQ levels required.
a) If this happens what will all of a sudden make them mine medical resources?
b) If this happens what will make the artisans sell them at affordable prices?
c) If this happens what will enforce the answers to a and b since by your good nature your are not doingit today?"
Medics can make their own food and chemical tools. I see no reason why they shouldn't also have limited harvester abilities. If they limited harvesters by skill rather than by lots (similar to vendors for merchants) then medics could get one or two harvesters, and maybe another one or two in doctor and combat medic. Yes, that would mean lower resource output than there is currently... but at around 100-200 resources per item, I don't think that's such a big sacrifice for most medics, doctors, or combat medics.
"2) Given the facts of how the game is played today since these resource are not mined by artisans what is the issue with other people harvesting?
a) How will these resources get into the economy then?
b) What will enforce these resources to get in the economy since artisans are not doing it by their good nature and they make loads of money off the other crafting classes anyway?"
Quite simply, they won't. Resources and the production from them, will likely decrease quite a bit. The result will be a more even playing field between a solo player and a player with an entire guild, or even several friends, who are willing to lend him their lots. It will also mean that the value of certain items, especially high resource items, will more accurately reflect the amount of time required to make them, including the time it takes to harvest the resources. When you and your friends have 200,000 resources coming in every day, you don't tend to notice something like a PA Hall or heavy harvester as much as a solo player who has to run his harvesters for two days just to make one.
"3) Explain why just because artisans get survey that also makes them miners. They are the surveyers that will not survey for people for money anyway."
Better yet, explain why they shouldn't be the only miners. They know how to make mines. They know how to find resources. They know how to harvest resources. If a player who does not know how to make mines, find resources, or harvest resources can figure out how a mine works, why can't other players look at dead animals and say "Hey, ya know... that animal skin looks a lot like the hides I use in armor. Maybe I should cut some off" or "Hrmm... this medicine has a pointy thing on the end. I saw a medic stick the pointy end into a guy, and he got all better. Maybe I could do this too." Non-artisans currently mine via the process of "monkey see, monkey do". It's the only money making skill in the entire game that works like that. Every other possible venue for profit requires skill points. Unfortunately, unlike manysuch pursuits, this one is *very* profitable, which is why so many people do it.
"4) Why would the artisan be the only class able to turn on an automated harvester?"
Obviously you're looking for a roleplaying reason here, and not a game mechanic one. Otherwise... why wouldn't any character be able to master the use of a T21 rifle, or be able to figure out how to type in /startdance exotic? Roleplaying-wise, the reason is that there is far more to mining than hitting an on/off switch, and the UI we get for the on-off switch is an abstraction of the sequence of activities that the character must go through to effectively calibrate and activate a harvester. Game-wise, it's for balance reasons... simple as that.
"5) Given there will be far less resource mined what will you do to curb the inflation?"
The same thing we'd have to do to curb the inflation now... drain the economy of surplus credits. What doing this would do is balance out the economy and make it easier to introduce effective money sinks into the game. Combat only characters would only be able to make money through combat related endeavors (loot, missions, etc). Tradeskill only characters would only be able to make money through tradeskill related endeavors (making items, selling resources, etc). Characters who chose both would be able to do both, but at a limited capacity since they would neither have the skill to take on the big game creatures, nor the skill to make the high end items.
"6) If this happens doctors get less resource and cannot afford the resource out there or it will be of poor quality.
a) can everyone live without doctors because of all those that will drop?
b) how many doctors will drop because they would be forced to be Artisan/Doctors and no combat related seconday profression, thus FORCING those that want to stay daoctos into being one template."
If crafting medicines for personal use, a doctor shouldn't need more than 2-4 harvesters at the most. If a doctor is crafting medicines to sell, he'll probably have artisan anyway, so he can place a vendor.
There's no doubt in my mind that this would be a big change with very far reaching implications. It would make dabbling in certain areas far more difficult. Players may have to actually *gasp* get more than novice in Medic because they can't find a steady supply of stim B's to buy, and have to make them themselves instead. People may have to *gasp* farm their own resources, and spend the extra money to buy heavies instead of mediums to keep up with demand... or even switch out and move harvesters rather than leave them in one spot and just harvest whatever's highest. People may even have to do missions for multiple hours in a row just to afford a 64,000 resource PA hall. Now... if any of this sounds just too rediculous for you, just let me know. But so far, it's pretty much answering a lot of the issues I've heard from a lot of the other boards.
Limiting harvesters to artisans, or even bringing back the Miner profession, would benefit the game as a whole, not just the Artisans.
For those folks who keep trying to suggest that they need to spend 15 points on Medic to heal their own damage (and are therefore using that as a relavent argument in this discussion) I would point out that this is certianly not true. Anyone can pay for a secondary stat buff from a Doctor and, in effect, have a Heal Over Time (HoT) effect by getting a faster regen rate. The sam can be accomplished with certain foods and spices. Food and Spice can also be used as a form of temporary heal on a primary, by buffing that stat to the point where it, effectively, provides that much of an instant heal. Anyone could enter into a scout camp and use that as a method of slow wound healing, and the sam could be said of Hospitals and Player City Cantinas. Anyone can also heal what is usually the primary tank for most groups thorugh the use of a Pet Stim.
So there are actually many non-Medic methods for performing some of the functions that a Medic does.
Similar arguments fall into place for scout skills with the new "pull anywhere" rules that allow pulling out pets and vehicles without the need for a camp. Not to mention the abilities that will be provided by some of the Artisan and Chef foods that provide skill boosts (such a Terrain Negotiation).
Many skill sets in the game,have ways to emulate skills using other abilities or are simply given directly to another profession and, as such, are non-exclusive.
I would also add that Harvesters are likely one of the better money making buildings that Architects make (and even Engineers, for that matter) and reduction of the population who could use them would also mean a reduction in potential market and income (a situation the Medical Professions are all too familiar with, since our products are only usable by other medics, and it is generally NOT a lucrative market.)
I, personally, think you'd just find far too many ramifications from pulling away harvesters from general use. And trying to cover those ramifications would mean a massive coding effort to rectify. I think the situation is not so simple as it's been made out to seem here.
Ok,I will try one more time:
As a Doctor I have to harvest my own resources because of several reasons.
1. The resources are very specific and are not usuable by many other professions. We mainly compete with chefs and bio-engineers for resources.
2. Some of the resources we need don't always spawn, can you say Dolovite Iron. Some resources spawn with very poor values and have to mass harvested when they do spawn well.
3. All our products are consumable. When a stim-pak or rezz kit is used, a certian amount of resources are gone forever. How many elite level artisian products are like that? Mainly Chef items and repair kits. This means a higher volume is needed to supply the market and prices cannot be too high as the item is a consumable.
If harvesters are limited to artisians then don't whine when I charge you 20K to rezz your sorry butt when you get killed on your way to your harvester. Limiting harvesters will result in inflation so high it will be rediculous. You may think that the resources will come back down once people stop buying them, but that will only start a new cycle. High quality resources will really drive the market. How are novice medics going to advance when they can't afford the resources?
Bad idea.
"1) 95+% of artisans do not mine medical resources and if they do they are too high prices given the high OQ levels required.
a) If this happens what will all of a sudden make them mine medical resources?
b) If this happens what will make the artisans sell them at affordable prices?
c) If this happens what will enforce the answers to a and b since by your good nature your are not doingit today?"
"2) Given the facts of how the game is played today since these resource are not mined by artisans what is the issue with other people harvesting?
a) How will these resources get into the economy then?
b) What will enforce these resources to get in the economy since artisans are not doing it by their good nature and they make loads of money off the other crafting classes anyway?"
Quite simply, they won't. Resources and the production from them, will likely decrease quite a bit. The result will be a more even playing field between a solo player and a player with an entire guild, or even several friends, who are willing to lend him their lots. It will also mean that the value of certain items, especially high resource items, will more accurately reflect the amount of time required to make them, including the time it takes to harvest the resources. When you and your friends have 200,000 resources coming in every day, you don't tend to notice something like a PA Hall or heavy harvester as much as a solo player who has to run his harvesters for two days just to make one.
Ok so a non anser here. The medical resource won't get mined basicallty. Doctors cannot afford to pay you all 10-20 per for a resource that is 900+OQ that you mine for .5 per. This answer does not address the issue
"3) Explain why just because artisans get survey that also makes them miners. They are the surveyers that will not survey for people for money anyway."
Better yet, explain why they shouldn't be the only miners. They know how to make mines. They know how to find resources. They know how to harvest resources. If a player who does not know how to make mines, find resources, or harvest resources can figure out how a mine works, why can't other players look at dead animals and say "Hey, ya know... that animal skin looks a lot like the hides I use in armor. Maybe I should cut some off" or "Hrmm... this medicine has a pointy thing on the end. I saw a medic stick the pointy end into a guy, and he got all better. Maybe I could do this too." Non-artisans currently mine via the process of "monkey see, monkey do". It's the only money making skill in the entire game that works like that. Every other possible venue for profit requires skill points. Unfortunately, unlike manysuch pursuits, this one is *very* profitable, which is why so many people do it.
That has been explained all througout the thread. Please read all the posts. One very good point is just look at your skills. Artisan is a Basic Profession to get the basic skills needed to move on to the elite crafing professions. There is no mining profession at present and one was eliminated from the BETA because it did not work. Calling an "artisan" a minor is just simply incorrect. Master Artisans that elected not to proceed to an elite crafting profession decided that the resourece selling market was an easy way to make money and are now calling themselves "miners". Having the ability to survey does not imply a mining skill.
Also to your analogy. How many miners tthat you know that know how to make mining equipment. so to your analogy artisanns can make them so thet can use them. Guess we need to make it so Architects can only live in houses because they can make them. Or only Armorsmiths can wear armor cause they can make them.
"4) Why would the artisan be the only class able to turn on an automated harvester?"
Obviously you're looking for a roleplaying reason here, and not a game mechanic one. Otherwise... why wouldn't any character be able to master the use of a T21 rifle, or be able to figure out how to type in /startdance exotic? Roleplaying-wise, the reason is that there is far more to mining than hitting an on/off switch, and the UI we get for the on-off switch is an abstraction of the sequence of activities that the character must go through to effectively calibrate and activate a harvester. Game-wise, it's for balance reasons... simple as that.
Good try. Since Miner did not work in the beta because they saw the need for free flowing resource they made the running of automated harvesters a "free" skill. You need to come up with the argument on why it should be taken away.
"5) Given there will be far less resource mined what will you do to curb the inflation?"
The same thing we'd have to do to curb the inflation now... drain the economy of surplus credits. What doing this would do is balance out the economy and make it easier to introduce effective money sinks into the game. Combat only characters would only be able to make money through combat related endeavors (loot, missions, etc). Tradeskill only characters would only be able to make money through tradeskill related endeavors (making items, selling resources, etc). Characters who chose both would be able to do both, but at a limited capacity since they would neither have the skill to take on the big game creatures, nor the skill to make the high end items.
Money sinks are being intorduced. the only arguments I have seen is tomake the "Artisan" a money sink. However you do not address simple supply and demand. the demand will eb there with less supply.
"6) If this happens doctors get less resource and cannot afford the resource out there or it will be of poor quality.
a) can everyone live without doctors because of all those that will drop?
b) how many doctors will drop because they would be forced to be Artisan/Doctors and no combat related seconday profression, thus FORCING those that want to stay daoctos into being one template."
If crafting medicines for personal use, a doctor shouldn't need more than 2-4 harvesters at the most. If a doctor is crafting medicines to sell, he'll probably have artisan anyway, so he can place a vendor.
Most stim vendors keep artisan long enough t get the vendor and drop it. And since SOE lets you keep the vendor thats what they do. Or like me I can sell plenty by using the bizzarre or just simply taking crates of stims to Coronet or Theed and just hawking them at the starport and sell several crates in no time.
And 2-4 will not cut it just because of the variety of resource required. Basically we have 10 lots and there should be no limit except what we place on ourselves. I for one have a 3 lot med center and have 7 for mining. I do not borrow lots, but I use my own.
Azmodean wrote:
[snip]
Medics can make their own food and chemical tools.
No they cannot. Food & Chem tools are grated in the Artisan Engineering branch at level 1. The other tool that could be used by medics is a Generic Crafting tool craftable only by having at least Novice Artisan. (Not that this is a big deal, mind you, just wanting to make that clear is all.)
Better yet, explain why they shouldn't be the only miners. They know how to make mines. They know how to find resources. They know how to harvest resources. If a player who does not know how to make mines, find resources, or harvest resources can figure out how a mine works, why can't other players look at dead animals and say "Hey, ya know... that animal skin looks a lot like the hides I use in armor. Maybe I should cut some off" or "Hrmm... this medicine has a pointy thing on the end. I saw a medic stick the pointy end into a guy, and he got all better. Maybe I could do this too." Non-artisans currently mine via the process of "monkey see, monkey do". It's the only money making skill in the entire game that works like that. Every other possible venue for profit requires skill points. Unfortunately, unlike manysuch pursuits, this one is *very* profitable, which is why so many people do it.
Since this seems to be brought up in several other arguments, I though I would point out that there is at elast enough support in the Medic community that some form of "Universal Stim A" is in the Top 2/3rds of Medic Issues. So while some Medics would likely agree that Stims As should only ever be usable by those who spent skills on the Medic profession, there are quite a few Medics out there that actually do supportthe concept of making that particular heling ability universally available. And as I mentioned in my previous post, there are lots of ways outside of Medic to simulate medics skills with other abilities.
"4) Why would the artisan be the only class able to turn on an automated harvester?"
Obviously you're looking for a roleplaying reason here, and not a game mechanic one. Otherwise... why wouldn't any character be able to master the use of a T21 rifle
Not a good example, really. Anyone CAN use a T21 rifle. They just can't use it as well as a "trained professional" can. Which to some extent is understandable. Funny thing is the Vibroknucklers. With a really good set of VKs you are better off as an Unarmed Brawler without the VK cert to use the VKs anyways because you'll do more damage with them, despite not having the cert. So it's not quite the best analogy to use in this instance, I would think.
If crafting medicines for personal use, a doctor shouldn't need more than 2-4 harvesters at the most. If a doctor is crafting medicines to sell, he'll probably have artisan anyway, so he can place a vendor.