Artisan Archive
Thread: So you want to cert harvs? Fine. Here's a proposal you won't like...
Bugbait
Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:19 pm
#79
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
The 4000% profit margin suggestion is in another thread.
Artisan mining for themselves: 0.5cpu (or less). Artisan selling at current market rate for in shift resources: 4cpu (or average). Markup in percent: 800%. Markup in credits: 3.5cpu.
Weaponsmith mining for themselves: 0.5cpu. Weaponsmith resale rate 30cpu (most Valcyn WS's make 50cpu+ so I consider this very conservative). Markup in percent: 6000%. Markup in credits: 29.5cpu.
Weaponsmithbuying resources: 4cpu. Weaponsmith resale rate 30cpu. Markup in percent: 750%. Markup in credits: 26.5cpu.
According to you Artisan's are being greedy by wanting more profit. It's okay for an elite crafter to have a 29.5cpu+ or 6000%+ markup but it's not okay for a novice crafter (Artisan) to watn more than 3.5cpu or 800%? Please explain this logic.
Mastering an elite crafting profession is a joke these days so don't tell me it's about time investment. Time investment in accumulating the best resources? That's a viable argument except there's still a vast profit in buying the best from Artisans. Do I believe elite crafters "deserve" greater profits? Of course, but there's a lot of room for compromise in terms of how much profit the novice and elite crafters get.
There's never been a strong case supporting the "Artisans are being greedy" line of argument.
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
Bianca also noted that the economy would "take care of itself" if resource prices got too high. Meaning that if people saw it as advantageous to themselves, they'd invest the SP to be able to mine.
However, this is a game, not IRL. People will not choose a playstyle that they don't want. Combatants will NOT take up mining. There just won't be any more miners.
With harvester certs, there is no economic "magic hand", because people won't choose what they see as a "job" in the game. Without harvester certs (low barrier to entry), that "magic hand" does exist.
Yes, people will not choose a playstyle that they don't want. I don't agree that combatants would not take up mining. You have supplied no evidence that this would occur. But what evidence is there that they would change I hear you ask? As I've said before, look at the changes that occured after the cap was introduced to primary and secondary combat defences. There was no longer a need to have the highest possible primary and secondary defence since anything over 125is ineffective. This resulted in defence stackers server wide changing their templates. Don't believe me? Do a poll and see how many combat templates have excessive (natively over 125 - ie. From innate profession bonuses only) primary or secondary defences.
The same applies here. Combatants that rely on the sale of resources to suppliment their play style will free the required skill points to maintain a level of harvesting that suits them. For some, dropping from a fleet of heavies to mediums might be sufficient. For others they might insist on maintaining heavies. It's all about balancing the scale. I know several combatants that have never used a lot in all their SWG play time. The thought of automated resource harvesting is so disinteresting that they don't bother. When the "sacrifice" outweighs the benefits then it won't happen. This is the balancing act that every player should have to go through. I would like to harvest animals to suppliment my Doctor but I chose state defences instead. It's a sacrifice that I made in order to gain other benefits. With the current system of open harvesting this decision is not required or made.
People wouldn't take up mining? A lot of people on Valcyn have taken up armoursmithing in recent months. Why? Because it's a very lucrative market. A few large scale producers had a good share of the consumer market. A few months down the track the once dominant AS's have dropped prices and offered new services which they arrogantlyrefused in the past.
Regardless of what happens there will always be miners. The fewer there are the greater the profits and the greater the attraction for others to flock to the profession (ie. The "magic hand" at work). The same applies to combat. Why are there so many Swordsman, TKA's, and Rifleman? Because they are perceived as being more powerful that other professions so people flock to it. The same pattern can be seen everywhere. I reiterate, there will always be miners as long as it's profitable.
The "magic hand" as you call it always exists. The cost versus benefit decision IS the "magic hand" (ie. Human decision making - If I gain 2A by giving up A then I'll do it).
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
Bianca chimed in that she had "billionaires on several servers". I ask you, are these artisans or combatants?
Actually, I said that. The purpose was to prove the game was too easy. Nothing to do with this debate really.
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
Based on what? The fact that there's been a need for a major combat rebalance since launch? The hideously conceived and implemented TEF system? The poor balancing of encounters? Please, show me the vast, infallible wisdom of the game designers and dev's that convinces us to take their decisions as gospel. Of course they're not perfect which is why your logic aboveis flawed.
I don't need to convince *you*. I need to convince the *devs*. I would wager that the devs are much more logical and in tune with what the server economies really are, and how certs will really impact them, than you are.
Bugbait
Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:20 pm
#80
EDIT: Sorry, double post.
Message Edited by Bugbait on 06-23-2004 02:21 PM
Bugbait
Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:30 pm
#81
Sampling and surveying are not related to mining? In that case why don't they remove the Survey line entirely? If it's not related to mining then it wouldn't matter. If you argue semantics surveying, sampling, and mining are all related by not the same. I'd agree with such a statement. Surveying is about finding the highest concentration. Sampling determines the quality via small quantities. Mining is large scale extraction. Without surveying efficiency of mining would suffer. Sampling also affects the efficiency to a lesser degree (can simply pull up the highest concentration and "hope" that it's good - purely a profitability issue though). Without mining large scale extraction wouldn't be possible. All related even if they are not the same.
Srednii wrote:
: 1 quarter of artisan is related to sampling and surveying. Signifigantly different from mining.
BiancaMinola
Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:58 pm
#82
Srednii wrote:
BiancaMinola wrote:
The Harvesters were nerfed on test, from about 20 to the current rates.
Changes on test are by definition not nerfs.
Fair enough. But the argument was over whether or not the devs could increase harvester efficiency - so my point is still valid, even if nerf isn't the correct word.
BiancaMinola wrote:
However, this is a game, not IRL. People will not choose a playstyle that they don't want. Combatants will NOT take up mining. There just won't be any more miners.
That is one of the most naive statements I have ever seen. How do you explain hologrinding then?
I think the drive to become jedi is a little higher then the drive to become miners for most people.
True, but the point that was being refuted was that people WILL NOT choose a playstyle they don't want in a game. Hologrinding proves that when given the proper reward folks will do all kinds of crazy crap.
And you ignore the fact that I agreed that in a perfect SWG it would be a miner skillset. However there is no Miner, and there will not be anytime soon. It is ILLOGICAL to say that in the SWG system that Artisans are not miners. Fully one quarter of the 'profession' is related to mining. Do you dispute that???
: 1 quarter of artisan is related to sampling and surveying. Signifigantly different from mining.
How exactly is sampling and surveying signifigantly different from mining??? I'm gonna love this answer.
When everyone's a millionaire/billionaire except the noobs and the RPers, there is no economic game. Impress me, and tell me where you think the economic game is.
: The devs said the huge inflation was caused by the duping, that they're slowly draining money out of the economy... so that there will be less millionaire/billionaire's. And really, people accumulate money, we like doing so. We accumulate money in every game we play, it's part of the fun; becoming rich.The devs'd be shooting themselves in the foot if they tried to make everyone poor.
I read the Holocron economic post too, the problem with it is - without the rest of the numbers there is no way to check, you have to trust the devs - and on the economy, well they don't see it as we do. They are talking about inflation of totalcash on the server, the old faucet/sink model - This mindset skews their view of what is going on. First of all, when we are talking about the SWG economy, resources are just as, if not more, important than cash - I would like to see the inflation numbers on resources held. There are not enough resource sinks now, and when hologrinding dies, there will be even more resources available.
What are they going to have to do then? Institute resource decay, nerf harvs, let resources drop in price to 1.25 a unit or so? If the economy deflates, but income is still inflating at 6% most people who honestly want to play as a miner are going to have a tough go at it. I don't care what Holocron says, the economy is not 'fine'.
I am almost never on the boards nowadays, However I can say with absolute confidence that until recently the 'pro-cert'folks held the vast majority - it wasn't even close, unless the non-crafters got wind of a thread.
: It's not the non crafters who got ahold of the debate this time, it's the elite crafters who usually never look in the artisan forum. And even if we arn't "pure" "true" Artisans like you seem to think should only be allowed to vote, we are still artisans.
When have I ever argued anything as a 'pure' or 'true' artisan? I'm the one preaching skillsets not professions. In this discussion I am referring to Artisans in general, not just the class. The only 'elite' artisans who don't have survey 4 are those who have chosen to invest their points elsewhere, or those who were fed resources when leveling.
Let's run a poll for one week in the BH forum asking whether or not non-BHs should be able to take BH missions. Whatever the result, I'm sure the BHs would get their panties in a wad that itwas even suggested, And would be even more upset if it were taken seriously by their correspondent.
I'll give you the point that the majority who voted were anti-certification, and the most popular movie of all time is Titanic. Popular doesn't mean right. I am arguing because I believe I am right.
Bianca Minola
Korlan
Wed Jun 23, 2004 5:39 am
#83
BiancaMinola wrote:
True, but the point that was being refuted was that people WILL NOT choose a playstyle they don't want in a game. Hologrinding proves that when given the proper reward folks will do all kinds of crazy crap.
I agree....
How exactly is sampling and surveying signifigantly different from mining??? I'm gonna love this answer.
I agree... if anyone out there knows a RL miner (or prospector) like I do.. and you ask them (in a general answer and question) how they do their work... they will tell you that they don't just slap down a mine where every they want... Frist they sample.. and survey the area.... before mining... hence.. in my eye... an artisan is more or less a miner via the survey skill box.
And no I'm not a "wanna get rich" artisan... I'm a "stick the skill box" artisan... and surveying and sampling is mining hence it should be the line that allows you to place harvestors for all crafting that requires harvestor material.
also... I'm sick and tired of some joe blow asking me to "survey" for "x" amount of cash, so he can place his harvestors.... its just not right....
: It's not the non crafters who got ahold of the debate this time, it's the elite crafters who usually never look in the artisan forum. And even if we arn't "pure" "true" Artisans like you seem to think should only be allowed to vote, we are still artisans.
When have I ever argued anything as a 'pure' or 'true' artisan? I'm the one preaching skillsets not professions. In this discussion I am referring to Artisans in general, not just the class. The only 'elite' artisans who don't have survey 4 are those who have chosen to invest their points elsewhere, or those who were fed resources when leveling.
Let's run a poll for one week in the BH forum asking whether or not non-BHs should be able to take BH missions. Whatever the result, I'm sure the BHs would get their panties in a wad that itwas even suggested, And would be even more upset if it were taken seriously by their correspondent.
I'll give you the point that the majority who voted were anti-certification, and the most popular movie of all time is Titanic. Popular doesn't mean right. I am arguing because I believe I am right.
I agree...
Bianca Minola, I really enjoy hearing your thoughts. To me you have hit the mark more so then most. Keep up the good fight... I know I got ya back.
Scoooter
Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:59 am
#84
BiancaMinola wrote:
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
What? Perhaps you missed the thread in which Guru asked for votes on harvester certs as a top 5 issue, where the idea was voted down by a 9:1 margin?
Until THAT POLL, when someone raised a furor among the non-artisan community about this issue, the opposite was true. Imagine the ire that would be raised if a chef were to suggest that eating should be required, and that got out into the wild before the issue was thoroughly debated. The exact same arguments would be made in the chef forum (they are whiners, greedy, etc.) - the pro-eating crowd would ask the fairness question, fight the economic sky will fall folks' idiotic predictions of imminent failure of the whole system, and any poll conducted would be skewed in a direction that does not accurately reflect the views of Chefs.
Or perhaps you missed the current top 5 post where Guru invited harvester cert proponents to author an appendix to the top 5 list supporting their point, GUARANTEED TIME IN FRONT OF A DEVELOPER, and nobody has yet?
As a former Artisan Correspondent, I'll let you in on a little secret. The developers do not read, or give coherant replies to any Artisan requests or lists. Last week's developer 'answer' is a great example of this point. You can read my reply to TH's 'answer' if you really want to know how I feel about it.
Guaranteed time doesn't mean squat to me. A guaranteed class review, just as we were promised when vehicles went live, is what is necessary.
I think you're confused about what the word "fact" or "majority" means...
And I'm pretty sure you are having problems with the word 'debate'.
Bianca Minola
Yes there was a poll that got soundly defeated. Do a search.
Until THAT POLL, when someone raised a furor among the non-artisan community about this issue, the opposite was true.
I really don't know where you have been, but every time this has been proposed alal elite crafters have had a united front on this and that front is reflected in that poll. Because other than the medical profession all other elite crafters are artisans also. And many of the medical professions have alts that are MA's like me.
All the threads in the elite professions on this do show a resounding NO
joined42904
Wed Jun 23, 2004 11:59 am
#85
I may be wrong about this...
But I suspect that the elite profession folks who oppose this change just want to keep down the price of resources. And some folks, including some I am sure who sincerely believe it, have scared these people into believing that resource Armageddon will occur if harv certs and no-admin are adopted.
The lower the price of resources, the higher the markup of an individual crafter.
Without certs, the elite crafter can rent lots and have his or her combat friends place heavy harvesters on important spawns. This makes the life of the elite crafter easier.
Some elite crafters do not want to mine. Notice what some of the "miner" threads say. They have the temerity to ask why elite crafters should feel that they have to mine.
Would there be some kind of resource price increase if certs and no-admin were adopted? Certainly. Could the elite crafters pass this increase on (not as a percentage but as a flat increase) to their customers without too much increase in the price of goods if they were so inclined? Certainly. Would they want to do that? I don't know.
Even if resource prices were to increase by 300% or so, that increase if passed on credit for credit to the consumer (without a percentage multiplier) would be trivial in terms of the price of finished goods.
As St. Gabriel consistently points out, a crafting utopia is created by more scarce resources. A large supply of "the best" resources devalues crafting.
But the elite crafters don't see it that way. And I wager that the successful elite crafters who have dominant positions in their servers' markets are over-represented on the crafting boards. Their monopolies and oligopolies might be threatened if the price of resources were to increase and they chose not to exercise their perogative to mine because perhaps they don't like that aspect of the game and prefer to buy resources.
Certification and a no-admin rule will help new crafters enter the game as low-cost providers of crafted goods. And I find that an environment that is welcoming to new players is healthy for the long-term survivability of a MMORPG or even just a MMOG.
Giamai
Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:29 pm
#86
joined42904 wrote:
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
Certification and a no-admin rule will help new crafters enter the game as low-cost providers of crafted goods. And I find that an environment that is welcoming to new players is healthy for the long-term survivability of a MMORPG or even just a MMOG.
Certification will inhibit new crafters from entering the game by limiting the volume they can produce because they can only afford to produce goods for which they can mine themselves. It will further hinder their entry into the crafting game because they will not be able to afford to buy from miners. But ultimately what it will do is force them to be miners instead of crafters, because that's where the money is.
But... if you bought the game to be a Weaponsmith or Shipwright, are you really gonna keep paying for it if you're forced to be a Miner instead?
LOL I still haven't figured how to quote only part of a post. Or maybe that isn't possible so that things aren't taken out of context...I don't know.
I primarily want to address your lfinal contention regarding new crafters. If each crafter were limited to what that person could personally mine plus what they could pay a somewhat higher price for resources to produce...that would be good for the new crafter. Because an oligopoly of established crafters could not dominate the market. This would enable many people to have a lot of fun playing crafters. That would be good for the game. (I think St. Gabriel has said much of this already in another thread but it bears repeating.)
if new players entering the market are limited to the minimum that they can personally mine than the result will likely be a decreased number of people in the elite crafting professions, not more. the new players simply will not be able to compete, limited resource selection means that the more established crafters are making better stuff cheaper. if the wall is too great, people will simply not bother to enter the field or quit very early on when they realize the level of competition that they are up against. this is a game after all and people will either quit or take an easier road if the game starts seeming morelike work.
it is in all our best interests to pay attention to the newbies, the veterans seem to quit on a regular basis.
and Scooter is absolutely right, doctors are often required to mine for themselves and be very selective in doing so. only a few resources are generally available to buy and that will mostly be those few resources that are necessary in other crafting trees, like dolovite iron. unless you contract someone to go get it, you must mine yourself, you must be selective in doing so and you do need many lots with heavy harvs to handle the loads to keep the business going. with limited lot numbers for houses and factories this is not an easy thing to do. most of the proposals i've seen forgetthe "mixed breed" crafters or include them as an afterthought. so just reminding y'all that we exist
HalasterTheBlack
Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:42 pm
#87
Bianca, what's your point in pasting my WS resource auction here?
HalasterTheBlack
Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:48 pm
#88
BiancaMinola wrote:
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
Actually, it means the resource conglomerate that I buy from can mine sufficiently to keep the price of resources in the realm of comfort for me, and thus the price of my crafted wares in the realm of "good deal" for my customers.
I doubt your sincerity here, Halister. How many Millions of units of resources are you right now, as we speak, auctioning in your server forum? With a buyout price of 8 cpu?
Several million actually. Do you know where I got those resources? How much I paid for them? Why I had them in the first place? I'll post a story below.
I find it curious that you are concerned about the woe and tragedy that would be released on the economy if certs were introduced - when you are obviously benefiting from the system as it stands, in such a HUGE way.
You jump to idiotic conclusions.
I also find it curious, that you have once again changed the subject from the debate at hand to another 'the sky will fall' argument.
The sky won't fall. People will just stop playing. /shrug
Are you sure you have the debate thing 'down cold'?
Yep. And you've got the "jump to conclusions with zero data" thing down colder.
Bianca Minola
Ah, now I see...
OK, a while ago, a friend of mine retired from Weaponsmith. I thought it might be fun to take up the craft, so I asked him if he'd consider assembling some resources for a starting WS and sell them to me in one fell swoop. I paid a pretty penny for all of them.
Then I pursued other resource sales on my server, buying up resources to be able to diversify the range of weapons I made. Again, I spent plenty of money on them.
The only resource in that list that I mined myself was the Polymer. The rest was purchased, mostly from retiring weaponsmiths.
The resources you see listed are top 3 in class on the server. Many are top in class. Some I purchased for significantly greater CPU than they wound up selling for, because between the time I bought them and now, better has spawned.
Ultimately, I'll wind up taking a significant loss on the lot.
Oh, and I'm selling that just for the reason I state in the post - I'm getting out of the *ranged* weapons business. Not because I don't like it or because I can't compete, but because I simply don't have the time to devote to doing it right.
So anyway, what exactly was your point? That I'm some hypocritical miner or something? Have I answered that accusation sufficiently yet?
And, BTW, could you imagine the price of, say, the Otoo gas if only 10% of what was mined could have been mined? HOLY MOLEY! No noob could ever afford to compete!
Message Edited by HalasterTheBlack on 06-23-2004 08:20 PM
BiancaMinola
Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:57 pm
#89
I just thought I'd jump on the ignore the debate and throw in useless information bandwagon your side always uses.
Besides, it was nice to be able to give some insight into the 'if you dare ask more than 3 cpu for resources, you are greedy" argument that you keep making.
What about the debate? Did you give up on it? Where are your facts and logic 'proving' that you are right about certs? My points are still sitting out there, unanswered - and the only thing your sidecan fall back on are your illogical, protect the status quo, everyone will quit arguments.
The fact that you have millions of units in hand supports the position that there are too many in the economy - the main reason that I support certs. You are not the only one, I have my share too. So do thousands of other PCs.
To completely ignore the debate -and stick to your talking points, to complain that you are having difficulty mining 'enough' resources without your alts - while you are holding millions of resources, to say that you are arguing for the little guy - when you are one of the big guys arguing for the status quo, strikes me as being pretty full of it.
Bianca Minola
HalasterTheBlack
Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:05 pm
#90
I'm sorry, I must have missed your facts and logic. You don't like millions of units of resources in an economy that supports tens of thousands of people? Sounds silly.
Any others?
Bah, don't bother. I'm gone for a week. Once I'm back, I'll probably post up a reasonable alternative to cross-server lot trades, which seems to be what the devs want to attack.
And Certs won't combat that. They'll only serve to enhance its lure.
If you can drag a statement out of a dev that supports your theory that too many resources are entering the economy and will continue to do so after x-server trades are addressed, I'll be happy to provide thoughts addressing that as well. Again, upon my return.
Ciao!
BiancaMinola
Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:15 pm
#91
LMAO, kinda sucks having your head handed to ya, eh?
Have a nice trip,
Bianca Minola