Artisan Archive
Thread: I am reading where folks want med and lg harvesters moved to higher skill levels or master
GrafvonSoden wrote:
It would give the bulk of the resources to the few,so no you're wrong. IT WILL screw the economy the first time a phenomenal resource spawns for any crafting profession. Thus driving up the price for everything on the server.
unlike giving the "Uber loot" to the few eh..It will give the resources to the people that HAVE INVESTED SKILL POINTS to get it. So no, you are wrong. It WILL NOT screw the economy. And the sky is not falling. Prices will be derived the same as anything else that is sold in game.
Crafters think you pay a lot now for good resources? Wait until the first "Certified Miner" bends you over the table for your high end resources and doesn't even buy you dinner.
Not like you wont pass on the charges to your customers.
I'd also like to note that I wished for the new creature harvesting droid modules would allow harvesting for non-scouts (albeit not nearly as much) in order to help bring the price of meat, and hide back toa proper level.
Yeah sodid I it would have allowed me ironically to pick up artisan and survey 1 for my doctor.
Funny isn't it? 
Message Edited by GrafvonSoden on 05-18-2004 12:16 PM
GrafvonSoden wrote:
Because the majority of us that dont have a million guildmates and cross server lot trades are tired of trying to compete with thoses of you that do. It will NOT destroy the economy. It WILL make it possible for the single player who has invested in survey tree to gain from it. You dont see harvesting bone, hide, and meat killing the economy do you. Animal harvesting is certified (more or less).No one wants to buy from the regular guy at 3 cpu when they can buy from someone selling millions of units at 2 cpu. The fact that you complaining is exactly my point. It wont bite me in the a$$, as you say. I'll actually do better. Simple fact, if you want to place havesters, then invest skill points to do it. Maybe its time for the other crafts to make credits instead of just armorsmiths and weaponsmiths.
I'm glad to see this discussion is still going...here are my opinions again...
1) You can't compare animal harvesting to mineral harvesting...Scouts can harvest hides, bone and meat, but they only thing they can use them for is selling or making traps/camps...the things they can craft with them (traps/camps) can only be used by other scouts...That makes their market very limited...On the other hand, the items that Artisans can craft can be used by other professions beyond just Artisans which opens up the market to selling harvested materials and crafted items...So it's not the same thing...Scouts get their exclusive harvesting rights due to their inclusive crafting abilities...If the price of getting exclusively granting certs for Harvestors to Artisans meant that anything crafted by Artisans could only be used by Artisans, would that be acceptable? That's what would make it the same thing...
2) It costs 15 skill points to pick up novice Artisan...and some have proposed putting the cert higher up in Artisan then just Novice...so that brings the skill point cost higher...If you understand the hybrid Combat Profession make-ups, you know thata profession like Commando comes with very little defenses...To have the ability to make money (via good loots), a Commando must dabble for defenses...this doesn't leave enough skill points left to pick up artisan (FYI...Commandos use to require a tree of Artisan so we could craft our own grenades...it was dropped due to the lack of skill points to dabble for defenses)...Bounty Hunters as well...they have pretty much the lowest Defenses of any combat profession in game...by the time they hit Master, they have 33 skill points left...they need those skill points to get defenses so they can do their BH Jobs...You can't eek out enough of a living via just creature harvesting...
3) Mineral Harvesting makes more money then running missions or the selling the average loots...It's this money that is used to buy things from various crafters...if you take that source of income away from Combat types, you are in essence taking money out of the Artisan's pockets in that you will be reducing their overall sales...how do you balance Artisans being forced to lower their sale price on items with the obvious higher cost that resources will reach...Do you see the dilema this creates...Resource costs go up, but sales go down...
4) The #1 sale item for the average Architect is Harvestors...Take that away and you hurt that profession...You can add in a decay feature as some have suggested, but even with that, you go from selling harvestors to player in over 30 professions to players in a fraction of that amount...even with decay the sales will be severely decreased...
The central theme here is that you can't take something away without giving something back...you'll only be hurting Artisans more then helping them...
Lot Swaping can be fixed so many other better ways...How about the extreme stance of making Harvestors only operatable by their owners...that would take care of Lot Swapping a lot better then cert'ing Harvestors...
When you look at the big picture, unless there is a better solution for Combat Classes to gain income, the negatives of this cert idea way outweigh the postives...
Ok I'll give you the point on the skill points forthe FWG5 I just happen to like the weapon. But my musician get's buffed regularly and if I'm going to a high level planet to survey I get buffed. Helps me run screaming longer than simply dieing.
This is not Rolemaster, you don't need a skillpoint to define everything in this game. By that logic the "new" or never coming droid certs would have everyone running around with MSE droids. FEAR THE LEET MOUSE! 
Actually what would happen if I didn't buy the doc resrouce at the prices? I'd be a poor, POOR doc, I'd be an architect with no harvestors and I'd be well... DE's don't do quality so much so I'd at least have MSE droids.. Trust me I'm not rolling in credits either. I've broken 1 million one while playing and it was actually for a HUNTING contract not a Doc line buffing. That's like the "let's not buy gas on this day" crap I always see. All that does is surge gas prices the day before and honestly? There is always someone out there willing to spend more to get what I need to my job.
Face it capitalism is one giant circle jerk. Heck even economists will tell you that. The economy doesn't collapse because a cert moved on a pistol. But the economy DOES start to heat up when you create an OPEC like environment with resources and that is a bad thing. When you look at it really that's what it does. It's put the majority of the resources stores in the hands of the few.
How much is gas right now?
<< Lot Swaping can be fixed so many other better ways...How about the extreme stance of making Harvestors only operatable by their owners...that would take care of Lot Swapping a lot better then cert'ing Harvestors... >>
I would go for that ANY day over harvestor certs.
This would give most "normal" people just a few extra admin slots so they can do things like manage a friends house or factory while they are away (or their apt burnt down and they have no computer or next connection for 3 weeks), or manage a few guild or city structures. It has the benefit of not eliminating a working game mechanic entirely (admin granting & access), wouldn't entirely elimate the option of "renting" a couple lots from someone to cover some extra factories or a house for storage, but would put some type of limit on how extreme one can go currently with lot swapping.
But certain folks speaking the loudest on this topic seem dead set on only their proposals so I don't seem much reason to spend effort bringing them back down to a rational place where other potential solutions could be discussed.
Heated debating is generally a good sign that a vital topic has been broached. Seems that this is a polarizing issue.
I guess I can toss in my 2.19 cents.
First off... I have a Master Artisan, a Master Weaponsmith, a Novice Chef and a Novice Bio Engineer.
My G/F has a Master Architect, a Master Tailor and aNovice Armorsmith. We share resources. We share harvesters. We generally have 15-25 out at any one time.
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Let's not limit this topic to Artisans. Artisans don't need to dig nearly as much stuff as other crafting professions. Artisans are NOT miners. (ok.. toss in your 2 cents to that statement.)
All crafting professions that requires some form of diggery should have certifications for harvesters. The types and size of the harvesters could actually vary by profession.
For example.. what does a Master Architect need the most of? Lo Grade ore, right? By the tons.
How much gas does he require? Much less. Organics? Chemical? Scale harvester certs by need.
Not to get specific on the sizes here.. but perhaps Architects could achieve a cert for a heavy mineral harvester at a level 2 in their skill tree for such things.. But at Master, he/she can only use a medium gas processor.
Weaponsmiths require a lot of materials, but not a lot of volume.. so they could possibly be limited to medium harvesters at master level.
Tailors.. Chemicals.. perhaps mediums. They seem to require less in terms of volume. Armorsmiths.. perhaps heavy chemical..
Well.. the balance could be interesting to toss around.
A Master Artisan.. hmmm.. what do they dig? Bits of stuff. So limit them to mediums at best. Perhaps they are the ONLY profession to be certified in Mediums for all types of materials.
1) You can't compare animal harvesting to mineral harvesting...Scouts can harvest hides, bone and meat, but they only thing they can use them for is selling or making traps/camps...the things they can craft with them (traps/camps) can only be used by other scouts...That makes their market very limited...On the other hand, the items that Artisans can craft can be used by other professions beyond just Artisans which opens up the market to selling harvested materials and crafted items...So it's not the same thing...Scouts get their exclusive harvesting rights due to their inclusive crafting abilities...If the price of getting exclusively granting certs for Harvestors to Artisans meant that anything crafted by Artisans could only be used by Artisans, would that be acceptable? That's what would make it the same thing...
Actually Docs and bio engineers can also use creature harvested parts as well as artisans. So the scout market is not as limited as you think.Then there are all the professions that use the productucs form harvested creatures (i.e. combatants using buffs from a doc who used harvested creature parts. combatants using food created by chefs who useBE enhancments created form creature parts for super foods . etc.)So your assumtion of the uselessness of scout's harvested resources is in need of re-examining.
2) It costs 15 skill points to pick up novice Artisan...and some have proposed putting the cert higher up in Artisan then just Novice...so that brings the skill point cost higher...If you understand the hybrid Combat Profession make-ups, you know thata profession like Commando comes with very little defenses...To have the ability to make money (via good loots), a Commando must dabble for defenses...this doesn't leave enough skill points left to pick up artisan (FYI...Commandos use to require a tree of Artisan so we could craft our own grenades...it was dropped due to the lack of skill points to dabble for defenses)...Bounty Hunters as well...they have pretty much the lowest Defenses of any combat profession in game...by the time they hit Master, they have 33 skill points left...they need those skill points to get defenses so they can do their BH Jobs...You can't eek out enough of a living via just creature harvesting...
I believe the majority want personal harvestorsto be able to be used at novice level, and medium and heavy harvesters to be place appropriately higher in the skill tree. My BH is well aware of skills needed to master it. But that is a choice. Be a "Combatant" or not. Please do not use the excuse that "Combatants cannot make any credits". Thats just not so. A Commando or BH has no business harvesing resources, unless they want to sacrifice some other skill to INVEST in the ability to harvest. The same as my MDE cant hunt "Night Sisters" unless he sacrifices some artisan skills to be "Combat Viable". It came down to "Choices".
3) Mineral Harvesting makes more money then running missions or the selling the average loots...It's this money that is used to buy things from various crafters...if you take that source of income away from Combat types, you are in essence taking money out of the Artisan's pockets in that you will be reducing their overall sales...how do you balance Artisans being forced to lower their sale price on items with the obvious higher cost that resources will reach...Do you see the dilema this creates...Resource costs go up, but sales go down...
I doubt you'll be taking money away from artisans. In fact, you will be impowering them to make a decent living. Combatants will still want what is created from the resources. And competition will still dictate prices. And I dont remember too many Combatants complaining about artisans not being able to get holocrons when they were selling for multi-millions as are the AV-21s my MDE cant get either.
4) The #1 sale item for the average Architect is Harvestors...Take that away and you hurt that profession...You can add in a decay feature as some have suggested, but even with that, you go from selling harvestors to player in over 30 professions to players in a fraction of that amount...even with decay the sales will be severely decreased...
Yes, it will hurt the architects. But no more so than not having master artisan would hurt my MDE. And decay is needed for machines as well as cloths, droids etc. But being required to be an artisan in order to be an architect, they may decide to also invest in survey if they havent already done so.
The central theme here is that you can't take something away without giving something back...you'll only be hurting Artisans more then helping them...
I believe the theme is "You cant give something to someone without them first paying their dues" skill point wise. And as I've already stated, you'll be helping the artisan, not hurting him.
Lot Swaping can be fixed so many other better ways...How about the extreme stance of making Harvestors only operatable by their owners...that would take care of Lot Swapping a lot better then cert'ing Harvestors...
I would like this too, but I'm more set on Certifications first.
When you look at the big picture, unless there is a better solution for Combat Classes to gain income, the negatives of this cert idea way outweigh the postives...
Please stop usuing this obscene argumentthat Combatants cannot make credits. My BH is just 3/3/3/4 and makes way more credits that my MDE and has been doing so since the marksman profession.
Message Edited by GrafvonSoden on 05-18-2004 01:37 PM
1) You can't compare animal harvesting to mineral harvesting...Scouts can harvest hides, bone and meat, but they only thing they can use them for is selling or making traps/camps...the things they can craft with them (traps/camps) can only be used by other scouts...That makes their market very limited...On the other hand, the items that Artisans can craft can be used by other professions beyond just Artisans which opens up the market to selling harvested materials and crafted items...So it's not the same thing...Scouts get their exclusive harvesting rights due to their inclusive crafting abilities...If the price of getting exclusively granting certs for Harvestors to Artisans meant that anything crafted by Artisans could only be used by Artisans, would that be acceptable? That's what would make it the same thing...
Actually Docs and bio engineers can also use creature harvested parts as well as artisans. So the scout market is not as limited as you think.Then there are all the professions that use the productucs form harvested creatures (i.e. combatants using buffs from a doc who used harvested creature parts. combatants using food created by chefs who useBE enhancments created form creature parts for super foods . etc.)So your assumtion of the uselessness of scout's harvested resources is in need of re-examining.
Message Edited by garvin on 05-18-2004 11:56 AM