Artisan Archive
Thread: I am reading where folks want med and lg harvesters moved to higher skill levels or master
GrafvonSoden wrote:
1) You can't compare animal harvesting to mineral harvesting...Scouts can harvest hides, bone and meat, but they only thing they can use them for is selling or making traps/camps...the things they can craft with them (traps/camps) can only be used by other scouts...That makes their market very limited...On the other hand, the items that Artisans can craft can be used by other professions beyond just Artisans which opens up the market to selling harvested materials and crafted items...So it's not the same thing...Scouts get their exclusive harvesting rights due to their inclusive crafting abilities...If the price of getting exclusively granting certs for Harvestors to Artisans meant that anything crafted by Artisans could only be used by Artisans, would that be acceptable? That's what would make it the same thing...
Actually Docs and bio engineers can also use creature harvested parts as well as artisans. So the scout market is not as limited as you think.Then there are all the professions that use the productucs form harvested creatures (i.e. combatants using buffs from a doc who used harvested creature parts. combatants using food created by chefs who useBE enhancments created form creature parts for super foods . etc.)So your assumtion of the uselessness of scout's harvested resources is in need of re-examining.
Actually, he notes that scout skills are good for two things:
Selling harvested resources
Crafting camps and traps
There you go, that's it. Scouts have no real market other than scouts for their crafted goods. However, a plethora of other professions rely on scouts for resources, doctors most prominently, due to the need for avian meat for buff packs. But BEs, Chefs, Armorsmiths, Tailors, and Combat Medics need scouts too, My MD/soon to be MCM toon will rely on scouts for key organics: avian meat, herbivore meat, and insect meat, without which a number of pharmaceutical items cannot be crafted.
However, there is an important point here that you both miss:
The scout resources that are most prized are very labor intenstive to obtain. Avian meat, in particular, doesn't drop, with a few exceptions (requiring a group to take on, I might add), in enormous quantities. It takes a lot of time to harvest 10k of avian meat, for example. It take a long time to harvest 10k of Corellian wooly hide for an armorsmith, because the largest creature that drops Corellian wooly hide is a crazed durni, at 17 or so units a durni. You can't place a harvester on top of a kaadu lair and walk away from it while you go dance in a cantina, grind gungan statues, farm stormies in Kor Vella, or finish up the quests at Jabba's palace. You have to go out there and kill kaadus. Lots of them. Don't even get me started on Corellian or Rori avian, which is even more tedious to obtain.
So there is no way to compare scout harvesting with mineral, chemical, floral, or energy harvesting. There's just no way to compare it. Scout harvesting requires the physical presence of the player to perform, be it active or AFK macro. You can't do anything else.
I agree with the idea of harvester certifications and ideally a harvesting elite/specialist profession. Give everyone access to personal harvesters. They reach BER 4 or 5 these days anyway which is what mediums used to be. Give Master Artisans or Survey 4 certified players Mediums (BER 10). Limit the heavies (BER13 to 14) to players with Master Artisan or something in the new, elite profession.
/insert all the whines here
This would control the flow of resources into the currently resource rich economy. Someone who wants to harvest animals needs to spend atleast 15 skill points yet there are those that think anyone for zero skill points should be allowed to harvest in far greater quantities? How is that fair? It's not, it's just that people are used to having a good thing and want to stay on Easy Street.
Artisans and a new harvesting profession would monopolise the market? Well, so do the top Weaponsmiths, Armorsmiths, Doctors, etc. so where's the problem? Oh, that's right the WS, AS, Doc's etc. want to be keep their massive profit margins. If the elite crafters are able to mass harvest everything they need then that's where the money stops and it's very evident on Valcyn and I'm certain every other galaxy as well. The top WS's and AS's are able to mass harvest therefore they keep all the profits to themsleves, there is no flow on or interaction with the rest of the ecomony.
But Artisans will get all the money instead! No, since every class will still have access to personal havresters for no skill expenditure and mediums with minimal skill expenditure. Compare this layout to Merchants and it will start making sense. Merchants as an elite profession get more vendors, cheaper maintenance, and better marketting tools (eg. Signs, world map registry, etc.). Why shouldn't harvesting be the same? Give non-Artisans/Havresters 5-6 starting lots. Expand this to 10 or 12 for Master Harvesters or whatever you'd like to call them. Give Master Artisans 8-10 so most master, elite crafters will still be able to manage some of their own resources.
Let's break down the basic professions:
- Novice Medic: Required for any injury and wound packs beyond A's.
- Novice Marksman: Required for anything beyond CDEF weapons.
- Novice Scout: Required for even the most basic level of animal harvesting.
- Novice Entertainer: Required for battle fatigue healing of any kind.
- Novice Artisan: Not required to place even heavy harvesters.
That doesn't seem fair now does it? I would strongly argue personal harvesters are the equivalent of CDEF's and Stim/Wound A's. Given current experimentation levels I'd say personal harvesters are far better given they can reach BER 4 or 5. I find it perfectly reasonable and balanced that templates that lack even Novice Artisan should not have access to medium and heavy harvesters. A master crafter can't fight so a master fighter shouldn't be able to harvest or craft.
GrafvonSoden wrote:
Why does everyone think the artisans will automatically change into some greed monster ? I've seen more greed comming from those selling "Uber Loots" than crafters raising resource prices.
And you cant blame the Avian meat price on artisans.
No Avian meat is an example I used because my first Elite was Doc. Here's one:
Lidium Extrusive Ore
Level VI item storage modules. On Starsider we're on month 3 or 4 of a drought. In fact Trade boards I see an occasional MDE beg for it. When it did spawn back then it was afer a 5 month droght and spawned for 4 days.
That's it.
It's already expensive how much more will it go up when the ability to harvest it is gimped even more? Doesn't even matter on the OQ of this stuff by the way, just the fact it's a named resrource that is also apparently a rare spawn for starsider. How about rare WS resources most mineral, most very rare and more often than not crap quality when they do spawn.
These prices are already high, regardless of this "resource glut" how much do you think a "Miner" is going to hesitate to jack the price when he knows he's one of the few on the server with any appreciable quantity?
Message Edited by Aeron-Blackthorn on 05-18-2004 01:16 PM
yes blackthorn, As a MDEI know of lidium. But you seem to think its the artisan selling for theses outrageous prices. No , its the very people you say needs harvesters to keep prices down. They see they have something thats needed and in demand, so guess what, there goes the price.
And believe me, I am not underestimating anything - especially the fight I have ahead of me on this issue.
Message Edited by GrafvonSoden on 05-18-2004 03:31 PM
GrafvonSoden wrote:
I see you are the Commando correspondant so maybe you'll understand ifI say, why shouldnt every one be able to use a flame thrower ? Its just another weapon. But you know it's not. It's a tool or your trade. As harvesters are of mine.
You actually bring up a point that I was waiting to come up...Everyone can use a Flame Thrower...As a Commando I can just use it better then everyone else...
So instead of pushing for Harvestors to be cert'd...why not get Harvestor enhancements...
And I agree with the last post...my FT is a tool...like your survey devices...It allows me to kill a target...and there are plenty of other tools like this in game, yet I don't access to other ways to survey in game as a Non-Artisan...What if I could use survey devices, but to a lesser degree as a Non-Artisan?
Don't get me wrong...you may have also noticed that my Alt is a Master Artisan / Master DE / Master Architect...and I agree that the Artisan Profession needs love...but think about it this way...
The cert idea is a cool idea, but the negative effect is greater then the positives unfortunately....
Aeron-Blackthorn wrote:
<<I see you are the Commando correspondant so maybe you'll understand ifI say, why shouldnt every one be able to use a flame thrower ? Its just another weapon. But you know it's not. It's a tool or your trade. As harvesters are of mine. >>
No.
Your tool is your ability to find those resources not the harvester itself.If you feel that is is the only tools that makes a master artisan competetive then you are underestimating your master artisan items severely in my opinion.
Bingo! A Artisan's tools are his/her schematics that he/she knows ...not the harvesters used to make the items. How the materials are aquired doesn't really matter except in figuring the cost to produce the item.
Lets put it this way: In terms of rare resources, would you rather it not be available for purchase when you need it the most or available for purchase but at a high price you could shrug off to the buyer?
I seriously doubt my artisan or even myBH could use a flame thrower to any effect. Or you would see them being used by everyone. The same for the T21 rifles. But yet anyone can use a harvester to its maximum effect, so they ARE used by everyone.
I'm sorry, I can only see certs helping artisans. But I have been accused of being very bull headed 
I do respect you opinions, but feel strongly about this issue. So please understand my continuous posting in reference to it.
GrafvonSoden wrote:
yes blackthorn, As a MDEI know of lidium. But you seem to think its the artisan selling for theses outrageous prices. No , its the very people you say needs harvesters to keep prices down. They see they have something thats needed and in demand, so guess what, there goes the price.
I don't want to jinx us but it's nice to see a polite debat that looks at points and counterpoints rather than who is uber or not.Message Edited by Aeron-Blackthorn on 05-18-2004 02:23 PM
atimes wrote:
Just cert harvesters at novice artisan and be done with it.
I've got a better idea.
Don't.
I'm not sure where the idea of "lavish" income for resources gathered came from, but when I was mining for a living (while grinding BH), I made enough money to pay Weaponsmiths, Armorsmiths, Medics (when they actually healed in med centers), Master Docs (buffs), Master Musicians / Dancers ( again, buffs and heals), Master Chefs, travel fees, and maintenance on harvesters.
Money flowed out as quickly as it came in. A majority of it going to crafters, or those who have crafting lines as a strong part of their professions, who buy equipment and items and whatnot from other crafters and Artisans.
How is this not cutting off your nose to spite your face?
Limiting the ability of others to make money isn't promoting fairtrade. It's sour grapes.
The game's called a massively multiplayer game for a reason. Get out and network
Aeron-Blackthorn wrote:
GrafvonSoden wrote:
yes blackthorn, As a MDEI know of lidium. But you seem to think its the artisan selling for theses outrageous prices. No , its the very people you say needs harvesters to keep prices down. They see they have something thats needed and in demand, so guess what, there goes the price.
Thus why I used the example,the explanantion was to calrify for non DE's on this board.
No.. you're misinterperating my words toa certain extent. By certifying harvesters you are creating an OPEC like atmosphere, where the bulk of the resrouces are available to the few. It's simple economics that dictates for that reason alone the price of something will go up and affect the economy accordingly.
*rolls eyes* Seriously where do you people live? If the resources are only in the hands of the poeple who NEED the resources how will prices go up? Ponder that one and make your argument from there.
The last thing we need this economy in this game to do is speed up. Contrary to popular belief there are times that is a bad thing. It causes inflation down the line and affects the total economy driving prices even higher.
Do me a favor, find a busy street and run across it without looking both ways. Your essentialy throwing out a prayer and hope you survive.
And you contradict the arguments here to a certain extent. Argument one was that it's these people that aren't certified and flood the market making it impossible for a master artisan to compete (even though they get dibs because they can find spots in most cases). Then you turn around and say it's these people that drive up the cost of resources as well. You cannot have it both ways here. Either they flood the market or they hold the market high. There is no in between here.
If you want to slow the resource market down, which is the impression I'm getting, then the idea of owner only units is great. But the magical MUST SPEND SKILL POINTS thing is not a viable argument with the way SOE has the world MOBS and complementary skill trees set up.
I do have to say this is a wonder, albeit stubborn debate. I mean really you guys got me to shift slightly on the owner only harvesters and that's a feat.
Message Edited by Aeron-Blackthorn on 05-18-2004 02:23 PM
Whatever you seem to not totally disagree which will save you from humiliation and assimilation. You may go now.