Artisan Archive
Thread: Harv certs explained...the yes side
outtacontrol wrote:
Question: How isit that a combat professional with absolutely no skill points invested in any craft what so ever be able to harvest resources on a Industrial scale?
Srednii wrote:
I've always felt it's up to the nerf callers to prove their case, not the people getting nerfed. And so far the nerf callers calling for harvester certs havn't.
/agree
I've yet to see a cognitive argument on why a heavy harvester cert should fall under master artisan. If certs were to be implemented at all, they should go into the survey line alone, as it's the closest to a mining prof this game has anymore.
Ropik wrote:
Most of these incoherant rants could be eliminated if everyone was on the same page.
Topic: Certifications for Harvesters.
Point 1: Noone that isfor this(me for example) is saying that MA's and ONLY MA's are allowed to use them. That's ludicrous.
The proposal: All can use personals, Crafters can usethe bigguns. If you craft anything. Docs, Smugs, DE's, Chefs, whatever.
This outta stop about half of the ignorant "MA's only for certs sucks" posts.
Point 2: The "valid argument" that those opposed keep questioning and wondering where it is
The argument: Why do YOU deserve the right as a non crafter of any type( remember to READ point one before you doctors and such chime again) to run a machine designed to collect resources? As a non crafter you have absolutly NO business with resources. It is not intrinsic to your profession in SWG thus you have NO business with them. Non crafters want them to sell or give to your alts/guildies. Period.
Point 3: The price of goods and resources climbing.
The state of the economy: Yes. Prices will undoubtedlyrise across ALL crafting professions. To astronomical levels? Not likely. There are billions of stockpiled junk resources on every server. Holo grinding is ending if not already over for most. That demand will be GONE very soon. Prices will level out.
There are a ton of different suggestions and ideas about what to do with different aspects of this proposal. This is NOT merely an Artisan issue. This is not even a Crafters issue. This would affect every profession in SWG. This is a global issue.
This ultimatley ends up being a problem with non crafters and some crafters. The non crafters because they want access to easy dollars with no skill investment. The "some" crafters because of their reasons I don't understand.
I have a TKM/Swordsman and a Master Wep Smith/Master Arti on the same server. I wouldsurrender my harvs on the noncrafter if need be.
Hope with this thread we can get away from the crap "MA's only are you crazy? thats a crock!!! What a load" because frankly that is getting annoying.
Perhaps this will find it's way to a Global or game issue board. I don't know. Perhaps it will just filter away with the rest of the garbage on here...
I completly disagree with this, as a smuggler. See, in my eyes, if anyone should get the cert for a heavy, it should be either an Architect with the skill box ro make them, or a master Architect. The sole reason for adding these certs is for a novice profession, that already makes alot of the base equipment and can be very profitable, is to give them a huge profit with little to no work.
The way harvesters are right now allow for everyone to get ahold of the cheap resources they need and search out the expensive ones.
TechBoss wrote:
.... Lions and tigers are not killed so their tissue can be used to enhance weapons.
There needs to be certification on harvesters. As a master weapon smith I cannot compete in market. Do to the over whelming weapon smiths that have 20+ lots and millions or stored recourses allotted to them threw lot sharing in the past with the combat professions. Thus making the there supplies of resources depleting eventually and an even game playing field.
When I can go do a 30k mission or loot a 2-mill skill tape as an artisan then the combat professions can start telling me that it is not fair. When the developers went to the loot system the way it is now it cut me out of the game as a crafter.
I not saying that the combat profession cannot extract minerals they just cannot use heavy miners, only personals. Or make it like doctor meds use a good architect can spend his or her experimental points on the level that a miner can used at making the extraction rate allot lower and the cost of maintenance go up. This making architect credits again trying to make a better product.
Lot sharing can still take place on storehouses and factories making your lots free up to mine. But it makes you a little more protective in who you give you keys to watch your stuff. Instead of losing a miner you lose a lot more.
We all know if you have fleet ber 13 you can pull enough recourse for your self if your not trying to supply the severe you are on. If you are trying to over produce then your going have to buy recourses and this is way your against certification of harvesters. The only crafting profession that cannot do this is architect. Just in real life though how many architects get there hands dirty. None they contract the work out.
These options make it comparable to the amount of credit we see from doing missions and loot system. There has to be some leaving of game play to crafters and combat professions. With the way the game is going now if you cant kill or have the credits to buy the loot you are going to be broke crafter.
cadof wrote:
repost___
...
With the way the game is going now if you cant kill or have the credits to buy the loot you are going to be broke crafter.
You are a Master Weaponsmith?
Do you make guns? You know you can sell those right?
Don't try to be the biggest and badest WS on the block. Make stuff and sell it. You guns might not go for the highest prices on your server, but they should still sell.
Use WUK's to make your money. I know there are plenty of Smugglers on my server that are always looking for them.
Look around, there is bound to be a gap in the Weaponsmith community on your server. Find a weak point and fill it.
cadof wrote:
repost___
There needs to be certification on harvesters. As a master weapon smith I cannot compete in market. I wantmoremoney.
When I can go do a 30k mission or loot a 2-mill skill tape as an artisan then the combat professions can start telling me that it is not fair. When the developers went to the loot system the way it is now it cut me out of the game as a crafter.
I not saying that the combat profession cannot extract minerals they just cannot use heavy miners, only personals.Or make it like doctor meds use a good architect can spend his or her experimental points on the level that a miner can used at making the extraction rate allot lower and the cost of maintenance go up. This making architect credits again trying to make a better product.
Lot sharing can still take place on storehouses and factories making your lots free up to mine. But it makes you a little more protective in how you give you keys to watch your stuff. Instead of losing a miner you lose a lot more.
We all know if you have fleet ber 13 you can pull enough recourse for your self if your not trying to supply the severe you are on. If you are trying to over produce then your going have to buy recourses and this is way your against certification of harvesters.The only crafting profession that cannot do this is architect. Just in real life though how many architects get there hands dirty.
These options make it comparable to the amount of credit we see from doing missions and loot system. There has to be some leaving of game play to crafters and combat professions. With the way the game is going now if you cant kill or have the credits to buy the loot you are going to be broke crafter.
cadof wrote:
Like most of the combat professions I want the best of both styles of game play but I cannot make money in combat as a combat class can make credits in crafting. Is that right no! Combat professions can go drop ten heavy miners pull go kill some a npc that drops uber loot that goes for 200k on the action boards and missions 80k a day. Then a week passes go to the miners that they have drop off and pull up 1000000k at 2 CPU. And you call me greedy, whiner and complainer. Come on. If you want to be a minor give up the skill points and extract minerals then do so.
Pasting the same reply in multiple posts is called spamming.
And what are you complaining about? Combat characters can make lots of money off missions and loot, and crafters can make tons of money off selling crafted items. And both can make lots of money selling harvested resources.
Combat proffessions can go drop ten heavy harvs after they've gotten a waypoint from someone, then they can go kill npc's for uber loot. Meanwhile a Crafter can drop 10 heavies and go craft some goods that sell for tons, just like loot does.
Seems fair to me.
cadof wrote:
Come on. If you want to be a minor give up the skill points and extract minerals then do so.
Srednii wrote:
And the balance argument is only used by people who've run out of real reasons for a nerf. Once all their arguments get chopped up and refuted people who call for nerfs always fall back on "oh it's for Balance". The totally subjective, unmeasurable, Balance. Balance which is different for each person who looks at it.
I've always felt it's up to the nerf callers to prove their case, not the people getting nerfed. And so far the nerf callers calling for harvester certs havn't.
Balance can be measured. I provided an example of all things being equal in another post. Yes, balance is largely subjective but it can and has been quantified. It's still not objective of course but it's quantifiable which is a step in the right direction.
People being nerfed will never agree with those that are calling for the nerf. It's selfish human nature at it's best.
What is constantly ignored in every rebuttal is that people are permitted to master 3.5 professions. That's enough to get a good mix but it was never intended for someone to be an effective Jack-of-all-trades. Remember the "give me more skill points" arguments? If their wasn't a limit on the number of skills you could obtain everyone would be master of all and their wouldn't be a viable player economy. How many combat templates don't have Novice Medic in them?
An example of a popular and very effective combat template: Master Rilfeman, Master Teras Kasi, Pistol 0/0/4/0 (Techniques), and Medic 4/1/0/0. If harvesters were certified such a template could be rearranged to drop Pistol completely. That frees up 34 points. Novice Artisan + Survey 4 is only 29 points. This would barely effect the template outside of PvP. If PvP was more important then changes could be made elsewhere. The harvesting capability of such a templatewould beunchanged assuming certifications took the path of: Personal - All, Mediums - Novice Artisan, Heavies - Survey 4.
I think it's a fair and reasonableassumption that the majority of elite crafters that harvest their own resourcesalso have Survey 4. This means that their personal, direct harvesting would not be impacted. The biggest impact based on the more reasonablearguments put forward indicate that the concern is centered around loss of lot sharing. Would it also be fair and reasonable to assume that most shared lots are offered by server swaps and pure combat types?
Server swaps are easy. Instead of creating a blank character server swappers would have to get Novice Artisan + Survey 4. That's not even one night's work so I wouldn't anticipate a major loss of harvetsing power here.
Combat types? Well, they loose some "ubahness" but potentially remain very effective. As is, the combat in SWG is largely trivial, any master combat profession has to admit that (except maybe Bounty Hunters but that's for another board and thread). People are still constantly soloing mobs(ie. Krayts and Ackley) designed as group encounters. The combat rebalance has been in the works for the longest time to address the very issue of players overpowering NPC's with little effort.
Even the most skill hungry profression, Master Bounty Hunter has 33 skill points remaining. This is enough for Novice Medic and Novice Artisan with one box in either. Every other template has the ability to "spare" 29 skill points with little to no impact on combat effectiveness.
This is why I don't buy the doom and gloom predictions about resource prices skyrocketting. Resource quantities may decrease but I doubt it will be by much. The combat types who claim they rely on the income generated from harvesting will still be able to both effectively fight and harvest as illustrated above.
Srednii wrote:
outtacontrol wrote:
Question: How isit that a combat professional with absolutely no skill points invested in any craft what so ever be able to harvest resources on a Industrial scale?
For the same reason a non combat professional can harvest resources on an industrial scale without spending any skill points. They took the elite miner proff out of the game for their own reasons, and equitably split it's abilities up amongst the whole community.
At this stage of the game they're not going to recreate the miner proff inside existing crafters.
And the balance argument is only used by people who've run out of real reasons for a nerf. Once all their arguments get chopped up and refuted people who call for nerfs always fall back on "oh it's for Balance". The totally subjective, unmeasurable, Balance. Balance which is different for each person who looks at it.
I've always felt it's up to the nerf callers to prove their case, not the people getting nerfed. And so far the nerf callers calling for harvester certs havn't.
If the argument of balance is totally subjective and unmeasurable, why is it that the DEV's rebalanced the combat professions? why because balance is not some infinite phantom open ended word as it applies to gameplay in SWG. Just as there were several changes that were made in beta that have returned to some extent to rebalance gameplay currently. No one in their right mind can say that when an elite combat professional can run 100-200k an hour in missions with the ease of going to the corner ATM while the pure crafter/merchant has to compete with this same elite combat professional in the resource market yet lacks the skills and the means to achieve the combat professionals rate of economic growth. Pure Crafter/Merchants do not wield the capacity to make that amount of money at will and the ones that do are extremely rare. So indeed sir the subject of balance is well suited for this issue. AS for balance being purely subjectiveit usuallytends to be that waywhen one finds themselves on the unweightedend of an unbalanced equation. Thegame manual clearly states that one put thought into his/hercareer choices. Elite Combat Professionals will just have to re think the way they have invested their skill points. I find it amusing the arguments that opponents of this issue so fervently defend are exactly the same as they are accusing the proponents of. Ok so I guess we all need to be Combat Elites then 200k an hour will no longer be an issue. A few hours of gameplay and I can buy an uber krayted rocket launcher as well as 90% resist set of armor and go solo ten more mokk missions every hour until i make my money back.
Outta Control
Master Artisan/Chef/Merchant