Artisan Archive
Thread: Harv certs explained...the yes side
Ropik"Again with the Master Arti thing? Isn't it clear enough for you? ANY CRAFTER CAN MINE. Do you need it again?"
do you really think 4 harvestors is gonna make my craftin any better? i need atleast 2 factories to make my supplies to pump out most my units needs specific resources, i need help of my friend thats playin right now in which is not a crafter and does not even wanna craft... if i loose ability to use his slots with my heavys and mediums are ok but doesnt really harvest ammount i need, i can easly have a short fall of resources... tell me how is architech suppose to get the ammount of supplys he needs and if im correct they have to use most resources for there buildings... cost will go up on there stuff and so will others...
Architects do. Tailors do. Both classes use materials where quality doesn't matter.Architects use a TON of materials where quality doesn't matter. So, REAL crafters DO care.
Srednii wrote:
WHO CARES ABOUT GRIND MATERIALS!?!??!?! lol, I know I sure don't. I use em for the few components armorsmiths use where quality doesn't matter, and because theyr'e cheap enough (2cpu-3cpu) I buy em. If they cost 10cpu, hell if they cost 4 cpu I would mine them myself because 4 cpu is too damn expensive for grind crap.
So again, real crafters don't give two craps about the grind resources.
Galdara wrote:
Architects do. Tailors do. Both classes use materials where quality doesn't matter.Architects use a TON of materials where quality doesn't matter. So, REAL crafters DO care.
Srednii wrote:
WHO CARES ABOUT GRIND MATERIALS!?!??!?! lol, I know I sure don't. I use em for the few components armorsmiths use where quality doesn't matter, and because theyr'e cheap enough (2cpu-3cpu) I buy em. If they cost 10cpu, hell if they cost 4 cpu I would mine them myself because 4 cpu is too damn expensive for grind crap.
So again, real crafters don't give two craps about the grind resources.
As a former tailor I can say without a doubt that while yes I was indeed using grind materials, I couldn't care less about this whole issue because 1 personal harvester running a couple days a week would have fullfilled all my resource needs (an exageration but you get the picture).
And architects do? Really? Is it their components that use grind materials? They must need high quality materials for something or they wouldn't be able to experiment harvesters BER up, or make crafting stations with up to 45 effect. And if they use grind materials then they should probably not support the cert nerf since that would effectively super inflate all resource prices.
Srednii wrote:
Galdara wrote:
Architects do. Tailors do. Both classes use materials where quality doesn't matter.Architects use a TON of materials where quality doesn't matter. So, REAL crafters DO care.
Srednii wrote:
WHO CARES ABOUT GRIND MATERIALS!?!??!?! lol, I know I sure don't. I use em for the few components armorsmiths use where quality doesn't matter, and because theyr'e cheap enough (2cpu-3cpu) I buy em. If they cost 10cpu, hell if they cost 4 cpu I would mine them myself because 4 cpu is too damn expensive for grind crap.
So again, real crafters don't give two craps about the grind resources.
As a former tailor I can say without a doubt that while yes I was indeed using grind materials, I couldn't care less about this whole issue because 1 personal harvester running a couple days a week would have fullfilled all my resource needs (an exageration but you get the picture).
And architects do? Really? Is it their components that use grind materials? They must need high quality materials for something or they wouldn't be able to experiment harvesters BER up, or make crafting stations with up to 45 effect. And if they use grind materials then they should probably not support the cert nerf since that would effectively super inflate all resource prices.
Message Edited by Cafa on 05-21-2004 11:35 AM
Cafa wrote:
Then you werenot in demand for atailor. My friend who is the tailor in our city has almost stopped playing her fighter character at all because she is in such demand. She went through 800k of fiberplast last week alone.
As one of, if not the largest volume architect on TEMPEST I use upwards of 2 million units of ore a week. That would be pretty hard to accomplish if it were all the good stuff.
However, being able to buy the crap cheap has let me bank about 8 million units of the finishing ores in the last 9 months, but an architect only uses that in limited quantities.
Obviously you haven't a clue what architects go through to make one structure item. Not coming down on you, most people don't. They whig when I show them an input hopper with more resources than they have ever used and I fill those about every 2 to 4 days.
Fivo Asia
Message Edited by Cafa on 05-21-2004 11:35 AM
I would hazard she's selling components? I stuck to clothing myself.
*shrug*. All I know is that as an armorsmith the grind market doesn't impinge on me at all. All this moaning about how there's a resource glut is 100% concerned with the grind market. Some of the YES people here want harvester certs so that they can sell grind materials for 10cpu, and the big reason I'm against it is because while it may drive grind prices to 10cpu, it would do even worse to the materials that actually matter to me as an armorsmith.A well known tailor with enough factories can easily go over 800k.
When I was a master tailor (not even that well known), I was making all my personal/vendor stuff, plus crates and crates and crates of trim for chefs, as well as cloth(could have been panels, i forget)for fireblankets, plus custom orders.
As for architects not using grind material... ROTFLMAO! We use crazy amounts of resources. For furniture, houses, structural modules, walls, factories and city structures(and I'm sure I'm forgetting somethings)quality is irrelivent for ALL parts.
A resourceful crafter can make money if they try.
If you wanna make money as an artisan all you have to do is try. I make all the money I need to fund my crazy plans and fun filled shopping rampages.
lol, BAH! 
It seems my tailor experience is out of date. In my day *strokes grey beard* chefs and doctors? didn't need anything from me.
That and we had to walk barefoot to our harvesters! 3 miles! uphill! (bothways) Through driving snow!
I have watched resources move from 2 cpu to in some cases 20 cpu. I cannot pay it. Period. THAT is why I now mine most of my own resources and have nearly stopped buying them. This plan to limit who could harvest would have the net effect of lowering the amount of available resources which would drive prices even higher. Everyone complains when they pay 12K for a good weapon. With fewer available resources that could become 100K .... when you can find it.Is this really what you want?
I had another thought regarding the certing of harvestors. The reason advanced in this thread is that there should be a skillpoint cost associated with harvestors, otherwise anyone can harvest and sell resources.
The SWG economy is supposed to simulate a modern industrial economy (in actual practice it's more like cottage-industrial hybrid economy). However, it lacks one thing that all modern, efficient free-market economies have...a securities and financial instrumentsmarket. Stocks, bonds, certificates of deposit, mutual funds, lines of credit, credit cards or even simple bank loans. None of these things exist in the SWG economy (Sure, you can borrow money from another player, but no one can make a business out of money lending because there are no in-game mechanisms to enforce load repayment, colatteral, etc. At best you could borrow some money from a friend, and it would usually be paid backwith no interest).
In my view, there are parallels between open (i.e. non-certed)resource harvesting in SWG and investing in financial instruments in the real world, and that open resource harvesting serves a vital and healthy function in the game's economy, just like securities instruments serve a vital a health function in the real world economy.
In the real world, anyone can buy stocks or bonds. You'll have to apply for a bank loan, but credit cards are pretty easy to get these days unless you have really bad credit (I'll use stocks for my example from now on, just to simply things). You don't need a government license to buy stocks, nor do you need to take a special class or fill out forms (other than for tax purposes). Anyone with the money can go to a broker and buy a stock on the exchange.
Likewise, anyone in SWG can plant a harvestor and collect resources. You don't need to invest skill points or get anyone's permission. Open resource harvesting is the SWG equivalent of investing in the stock market! All you need is enough money to buy a harvestor and to pay for the maintenance/power for the harvestor.
Just because you can invest in stocks, though, doesn't mean you know which are the best to invest in. That's why many people hire financial consultants and retirement planners to help them. Likewise, just because someone can plant a harvestor doesn't mean that they know the best place to place it or the best resource to harvest. That's why they hire artisans, to help them plan where to plant their harvestors.
Ah, but in the stock market there is risk. Harvesting is guaranteed money! Right? Well, not exactly. All economies have boom and bust cycles. It could be argued that the SWG economy (or at least the resourcemarket)is in a boom cycle right now, fueled largely by holo grinding. Any old toon can plant a harvestor anywhere and almost be guaranteed to sell at a profitwhatever they suck out of the ground, even pure junk resources.
But this is no different from boom and bust cycles in the stock market. Remember the mid and late '90s? All you had to do is put money in a tech stock (especiallyDotcoms)and you were guaranteed to make money. It didn't matter if the company had never made a profit. It didn't matter if the company didn't have a product. It didn't matter if the company didn't have a recognizable business model. If it was a Dotcom, the price just went up and up and up. This is the equivalent of resource harvesting in SWG during the holo-grind boom.
But the inevitable happened and the stock market crashed. Those unprofitable tech and Dotcom stocks were hit the hardest. Anyone who didn't get out in time got slaughtered. They either sold at a loss (probably to some other poor sucker who later lost everything) or if they didn't sell then they lost their entire investment when the company went bankrupt.
In my view, the SWG resource market is in the tail end of a boom cycle fueld by holo-grinding. This boom is slowly winding down as we get closer and closer to the end of holo-grinding.It's still possible to make good money selling to holo-grinders, but the end is in sight. Even though we can pretty much predict when holo-grinding will end (and thus the end of theholo-grinding boom), there are still going to be people who won't change their practices. Either they don't realize what the end of holo-grinding means to them, or they think they'll be one of the lucky ones who can somehow continue to profit in a bust cycle, or they'llsimply be asleep at thewheel and not even realize what's happened.
These people will continue to harvest resources, but they will find it increasingly difficult to sell those resources. They'll have to sell at lower and lower prices; some resources they may not be able to sell at any price. Eventually they will reach a point where they either a) conclude that resource harvesting isn't profitable enough for them to stay in it and so they will find something more fun/profitable,or b) lose all their money and thus can't continue to maintain their harvestors (the equivalent of going bankrupt). When they leave resource harvesting they will have to either give their accumulated resources away (if they can find someone who wants them) or destroy the resources in order to make room in their inventory/houses. This will be the SWG equivalent of loosing your shirt in the stock market--instead of worthless shares of stock we'll have worthless stacks of junk resources that no one wants.
Stocks give average people a stake in large public corporations, and a larger stake in the economy beyond being merely a consumer. In the same way, resource harvesting gives non-crafters a larger stake in the SWG economy, beyond the role of being mere consumers for crafter goods. Every crafter has encountered a customer who treated the crafter like he/she was little more than a highly interactive NPC vendor who's sole purpose was to serve their needs. Crafters shouldn't make the same mistake of thinking that non-crafters exist only to buy our goods. Resource harvestingserves asa "democratic" (democratic in that anyone can do it) means of ensuring that everyone in the game has a larger stake in the economy. It doesn't matter whether this was the Devs intentions or not; all that matters is that this is the way it is now. To changethings now would cause incredible harm to the economy, beyond even the resultant increase in resource costs. Instead of a healthy economic flow between crafters and non-crafters, we would have an "us vs. them" economy, with one tier being the producers and the other relegated to being only consumers.
Now, before anyone jumps in and says "stocks and resources aren't the same", I'm not saying that they are exactly the same thing. I'm onlysaying there are parallels between investing in stocks and open harvesting in SWG, and that in both cases it serves a healthy and vital part of the economy.
Thanks for reading such a long post.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Edit: Typos and spelling errors
Message Edited by EdOWar on 05-21-2004 07:20 PM
Cafa wrote:
"Why? Because I just don't believe you. THIS IS a power play, not advocacy. Your reasons for cert systems are fundamentally founded in selfishness for a novice profession, IMO. Artisans need more things to make, not activities that totally upheave the entire economy for another freaking 6 months."
Fivo Asia
Why is it that people are calling those in favor of balancing the deck selfish?Also we are called whiners and greedy.
lets make some examples:
Question: How isit that a combat professional with absolutely no skill points invested in any craft what so ever be able to harvest resources on a Industrial scale? Can he harvest one unit of meat/bone or hide from creatures without scout?(scout being a starting profession i might add)
Now this same elite combat professional who can draw and complete20-40k missions, reap the benefits of having the ability to slay high level creatures and NPC's with little or no help looting items that sell for literal millions (tissues,scales,crystals,etc.) and all the while the player is hunting and adventuring for these priceless loots he is harvesting resources at 13 units a minute. Now i ask who is really being greedy here?
My character is a Master Artisan/Chef/Merchant and i would be lucky to draw a 3k mission the best loot i will ever see i had to buy +10 chefexpermintation for a 900k and that was a deal. If attempt to take on a high level creature or NPC its only to get to the nearest town fast because thats where the cloning center is.
This is not about power it is about balance, did the devs not balance the combat professions because of defense stacking and such? Sure they did because with right combinations some where nearly invincible.
Most who are in favor of certs want a well thought balanced to solution to the this issue. Not a monopoly. I too have an alt that is a combat i would gladly relinquish his ability to mine to see this issue addressed. No one with any sense is advocating only artisans be able to mine thats crazy. But Elite Combat Professionals need to make a choice on how they want to use their skill points to earn their credits.
As for prices sure there will be a ripple effect but not great depression that everyone seems to be eluding to. Being a resource dealer i can tell you that High Quality minerals and such only come every so often and believe me every crafter is all over it stockpiling every unit he/she can because only God and the Dev's know when something as good will come around again thats why if you notice the best crafterswith the best merchandise have been crafting for months if not since they started and they have deeper stock piles of high quality materials to use ofr their merchandise. the rest of the resources are mediocre at best. with the holo craze ending there will be little use for mediocre to crappy resources. I say not having some balancing here would keep the market completely and hopelessly saturated with materials.
A WELL BALANCED SOLUTION TO A UNBALANCED PROBLEM
Outta Control
Master Merchant/Chef/Artisan
Apprentice Gunfighter