Artisan Archive
Thread: Harv certs explained...the yes side
Why do the elite combat guys bother with resources then?
Well, mainly because when you run high end combat missions you need high end gear.
And you will run through sets of composite, powerups, weapons, buffs, food and spice with an allarming rate. All these things are pretty darn expensive. Since 1) the resources required to make them ain't free. 2) The crafters want to make a living crafting.
Two pretty reasonable facts. But in the end everybody needs to make a bit more money so that they get above break even. That's why people use resource trade. It's an exccelent source of income. It does require a bit of player skill (checking for the best resources, monitoring SWGcraft, setting prices, haggling. And it is a social buissness. You won't get repeat customers if you're an **edit**. But be nice, cut prices here and there to help, give away something for free and you will become successfull.
Kdr_Kane wrote:
There's nothing wrong with the economy that I've seen. Now if they could make the harvesters delete that are owned by deleted characters (as advertised in Publish 8), that would fix the harvester fields out there.
EdOWar wrote:
I had another thought regarding the certing of harvestors. The reason advanced in this thread is that there should be a skillpoint cost associated with harvestors, otherwise anyone can harvest and sell resources.
The SWG economy is supposed to simulate a modern industrial economy (in actual practice it's more like cottage-industrial hybrid economy). However, it lacks one thing that all modern, efficient free-market economies have...a securities and financial instrumentsmarket. Stocks, bonds, certificates of deposit, mutual funds, lines of credit, credit cards or even simple bank loans. None of these things exist in the SWG economy (Sure, you can borrow money from another player, but no one can make a business out of money lending because there are no in-game mechanisms to enforce load repayment, colatteral, etc. At best you could borrow some money from a friend, and it would usually be paid backwith no interest).
In my view, there are parallels between open (i.e. non-certed)resource harvesting in SWG and investing in financial instruments in the real world, and that open resource harvesting serves a vital and healthy function in the game's economy, just like securities instruments serve a vital a health function in the real world economy.
In the real world, anyone can buy stocks or bonds. You'll have to apply for a bank loan, but credit cards are pretty easy to get these days unless you have really bad credit (I'll use stocks for my example from now on, just to simply things). You don't need a government license to buy stocks, nor do you need to take a special class or fill out forms (other than for tax purposes). Anyone with the money can go to a broker and buy a stock on the exchange.
Likewise, anyone in SWG can plant a harvestor and collect resources. You don't need to invest skill points or get anyone's permission. Open resource harvesting is the SWG equivalent of investing in the stock market! All you need is enough money to buy a harvestor and to pay for the maintenance/power for the harvestor.
Just because you can invest in stocks, though, doesn't mean you know which are the best to invest in. That's why many people hire financial consultants and retirement planners to help them. Likewise, just because someone can plant a harvestor doesn't mean that they know the best place to place it or the best resource to harvest. That's why they hire artisans, to help them plan where to plant their harvestors.
Ah, but in the stock market there is risk. Harvesting is guaranteed money! Right? Well, not exactly. All economies have boom and bust cycles. It could be argued that the SWG economy (or at least the resourcemarket)is in a boom cycle right now, fueled largely by holo grinding. Any old toon can plant a harvestor anywhere and almost be guaranteed to sell at a profitwhatever they suck out of the ground, even pure junk resources.
But this is no different from boom and bust cycles in the stock market. Remember the mid and late '90s? All you had to do is put money in a tech stock (especiallyDotcoms)and you were guaranteed to make money. It didn't matter if the company had never made a profit. It didn't matter if the company didn't have a product. It didn't matter if the company didn't have a recognizable business model. If it was a Dotcom, the price just went up and up and up. This is the equivalent of resource harvesting in SWG during the holo-grind boom.
But the inevitable happened and the stock market crashed. Those unprofitable tech and Dotcom stocks were hit the hardest. Anyone who didn't get out in time got slaughtered. They either sold at a loss (probably to some other poor sucker who later lost everything) or if they didn't sell then they lost their entire investment when the company went bankrupt.
In my view, the SWG resource market is in the tail end of a boom cycle fueld by holo-grinding. This boom is slowly winding down as we get closer and closer to the end of holo-grinding.It's still possible to make good money selling to holo-grinders, but the end is in sight. Even though we can pretty much predict when holo-grinding will end (and thus the end of theholo-grinding boom), there are still going to be people who won't change their practices. Either they don't realize what the end of holo-grinding means to them, or they think they'll be one of the lucky ones who can somehow continue to profit in a bust cycle, or they'llsimply be asleep at thewheel and not even realize what's happened.
These people will continue to harvest resources, but they will find it increasingly difficult to sell those resources. They'll have to sell at lower and lower prices; some resources they may not be able to sell at any price. Eventually they will reach a point where they either a) conclude that resource harvesting isn't profitable enough for them to stay in it and so they will find something more fun/profitable,or b) lose all their money and thus can't continue to maintain their harvestors (the equivalent of going bankrupt). When they leave resource harvesting they will have to either give their accumulated resources away (if they can find someone who wants them) or destroy the resources in order to make room in their inventory/houses. This will be the SWG equivalent of loosing your shirt in the stock market--instead of worthless shares of stock we'll have worthless stacks of junk resources that no one wants.
I can understand your argument here, but I don't necesarially agree. People will never have a "hard time" selling a resource that was smart to harvest in the first place. People will always need steel, people will always need power, people will always need ore. If these people who are riding the resource bubble to the end they will not (if they have been selling the things the holo grinders are using anyways) have a problem getting rid of resources. They might be forced (after not selling much for a shift or two) to sell high quality resources, and give up their get rich quick on cheap resource schemes, but if they have been selling to these holo grinders for even a few weeks, they will have enough money saved up to learn that lesson, even the hard way! As long as you don't harvest a low quality resource that is only used in very high quality applications (such as something that is forfinal assemblies of high end products, T21s for example) then NOTHING is unsellable, but these people already know this, as the holo grinders are not grinding on T21s. There will be people buying grinding materials always. If I am a retired commando for example, and I decide I want to move onto master weaponsmith, do I want to grind my barrels out of steel that costs me 10 cpu, or 2? Yes there will be a deflation of the market, but the end of hologrinding will help stabalize the market. I think those who call for the certs shouldwait until the dust has settles. Who knows, before long with many people leaving the resource selling market (which undoubtably many will)prices may rise to a level where you do make a decent profit.
Stocks give average people a stake in large public corporations, and a larger stake in the economy beyond being merely a consumer. In the same way, resource harvesting gives non-crafters a larger stake in the SWG economy, beyond the role of being mere consumers for crafter goods. Every crafter has encountered a customer who treated the crafter like he/she was little more than a highly interactive NPC vendor who's sole purpose was to serve their needs. Crafters shouldn't make the same mistake of thinking that non-crafters exist only to buy our goods. Resource harvestingserves asa "democratic" (democratic in that anyone can do it) means of ensuring that everyone in the game has a larger stake in the economy. It doesn't matter whether this was the Devs intentions or not; all that matters is that this is the way it is now. To changethings now would cause incredible harm to the economy, beyond even the resultant increase in resource costs. Instead of a healthy economic flow between crafters and non-crafters, we would have an "us vs. them" economy, with one tier being the producers and the other relegated to being only consumers.
Now, before anyone jumps in and says "stocks and resources aren't the same", I'm not saying that they are exactly the same thing. I'm onlysaying there are parallels between investing in stocks and open harvesting in SWG, and that in both cases it serves a healthy and vital part of the economy.
Thanks for reading such a long post.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Edit: Typos and spelling errors
Message Edited by EdOWar on 05-21-2004 07:20 PM
Something along the lines of: Novice skill in basic professions that craft can place 5 harvestors. Masters 10. Novice in elite crafting get 15 lots, masters get 20. (these are not cumulative across professions)
Unless something like this is done, well, none of the reseans I've seen in this threed seem strong enough to implement certs. As an extra note, not all fighting profs do missions for cash. Some of them like to do bunkers and dungeons, or pvp, which does not get them cash.
Theros Ironfist