Artisan Archive
Thread: Artisans want harvestor certifications. Please Read and submit your comments.
Alciril wrote:Just to show you the state of resource harvesting on Starsider (and I'm sure it's the same on many other servers), look at one excerpt from our galaxy trade forums:
SLAGS BULK RESOURSE ORE 1.5 CPU! OVER 20 MILLION UNITS STOCKED! ALL other grinding resourse 1 PER!
I have nothing at all against Slag. In fact, he's making the most of what's available to him. But just take a look at his signature and see what's possible with cross-server lot trades and unchecked harvester certifications:
"MASTER RESOURCE MINER- OPERATING 370+ BER 13 MINERAL HARVESTERS - ABLE TO DELIVER 10MIL+ RESOURCE WEEKLY! SEND TELL /or/ EMAIL INGAME TO SLAG FOR ORDERS. "
Something really needs to be done.
What needs to be done? He sells in volume, keeping the price to 1.5 per. Most on Intrepid go for 3-5 per. If I were a crafter, I'd nominate Slag for pope!
My Alt is a Master Artisan and I still don't think Cert'ing the harvestors is a good ideas...there are more negatives in game then postives to this idea...so here are a few suggestions to think about instead (and I've also seen plenty more good ideas floating out there)
How about:
- Allow artisans with survey skills to find the more rare deposits easier...or when a mineral isn't spawning, allow someone with survey skills to still find random pockets that can only be surveyed by hand...
- Raise maintenace costs (power and credits) on all harvestors, but lower the costs for Artisans with Survey Skills
- Give Artisans a harvest bonus rate for using harvestors
- Give Artisans a hand survey device with a larger collection rate (since it takes a survey device to find the best concentrations)...
- Allow an Artisan to chemically enhance certain harvested materials to create better versions (like combining 2 different types of Aluminum to create a hybrid average of the two)...
And to deal with cross server lot swaping:
- Make it so that only owners can put in maintenance and power into a harvestor
- Or...Make it so that only owners can access the harvestor output area
- Or...Make it so that only owners can turn a harvestor on (since they turn off everytime a run stops)
- Or...Make it so that a player can be owner on up to 10 harvestors and only be an admin on 5 harvestors...set a max on admin #s
- Or...Make it so that admins can only access the output box...the owner has to do everything else...
- Or...Remove the maintenance cost and replace with a decay...
- Or...Create limited use Harvestors (can only harvest so many times before be used again to harvest).
- And so on...there are tons of ideas that people have tried to share...
Anyway...the harvestor cert idea was a good idea, but the people don't seem to support it mainly because it would do more damage to those outside the profession then it would do good inside the profession. And even inside the profession of Artisan, many can see the negative results it would lead too...
Anyway...that's my final 2 cents...And I want to personally thank all those out there who participated in a friendly dicussion of both sides of this issue and kept things civil.
Master Artisan have a 5% or 10% bonus on top of the concentration, so if the harvestor is OWNED by a MA he does harvest 10% more than all the others.
As for maintenance cost, I'm against reduction for artisan.
Merchant are the one that have maintenance reduction, and that should stay that way.
Alciril wrote:
Saabotage wrote:
Artisens complain to D.A.M.N.E.D. MUCH. Im a smuggler with 0 artisen skills!!!
I use metals and chemicals in my drugs as well as hides, oils, and other resources!
Why should you control the prices of my resources? You know Molecular clamps are not cheap to make honestly, not unless i harvest my own resources! If i did not i wouldn't be able to put clamps on teh bazaar for sale because they would cost to much to make to be within the 6k cap!
Further more, I have made 200k a week the last 2 weeks selling droid batteries. I get an artisen to make me a schematic then i load about 20k of ore into MY FACTORY, (ohh how about me useing factories for crafting, you selfish b,astards?), make about 40 crates of droid batteres and then sell crates at 6k per crate on the bazaar. THE ONLY REASON YOU DON"T MAKE MONEY IS BECUASE YOU DON'T TRY!
And to think as a master smuggler i was pushing for artisens to be able to harvest glitterstim ore from the ground.....Screw that idea NOW!
The only reason you're against artisan harvester certifications is because among others, you've been spoiled by the free use of harvesters.
LOL! How is that? I have 1 medium mineral Harvestor. 1 BER9 chemical harvestor, a chemical factory, equipment factory, 2 personal wind generators, a crafting house, and a storage house.
How ever if you like I will be happy to make 6 cross server lot swaps to ensure that i drive prices down to 1:2 credit/ore if you like!
You mentioned that you're a smuggler. No one complains that smugglers charge what the market will bear for providing their slicing services. Hypothetically, let's pretend that up to this pointsmuggler-craftedmolecular clamps were usable by anyone to slice their weapons. So rather than requiring the services of a slicer, someone only needs to buy a crate of clamps and then apply the slice themselves. Somewhere along the line, a smuggler suggests that smugglers, and smugglers alone, be the sole class that applies slices to items. Their reasoning is simple: slicing shouldn't be available to the general public and that giving it to smugglers just "makes sense". Would people complain? Of course they would. Complaining always happens when something is taken away--even if the change would be better for the game.
ok first LMAO!!! Ok, if you knew the meager living we a high level profession makes on slices, and spices, and how infrequently we acctually get to use our unerworld tree, and how much it cost US to use the underworld IV you wo7uldn't even bother saying this artisen is NOT a mining profession! its ONLY PART of your profession. You can sale droid batteries (im making a killing off them because artisens don't bother makeing them), bikes(lost 3 last week),power ups for weapons. On TOP of collecting the highest resources of ore, way easier then anybody could plop down a harvestor and do (it does cost money to redeed them).
And as for even if the change would be better for the game , that would be YOUR opinion. I dont think i want to give up any power/rights/playablity to socialist artisens, who want nothing more then to consolidate power into their own hands.
We're facing the same situation with harvesters. People who were in beta know that the last few months of testing were hectic and rushed. Professions were removed and their abilities distributed among other classes. Some things slipped through the cracks (the miner's harvester certifications were given to everyone, as were the industrialist's factory certifications). It's time to redistribute these privileges to the appropriate classes. No your not! And as calling you artisens socialist , well lined in red (nice color isn't it) is exactly what you think of ALL other professions. YOUR A BASIC PROFESSION DEAL WITH IT!
Personal harvesters are enough for any non-artisan class to fill their own personal resource needs. If you need medium or heavy harvesters in order to keep up with demands, then you need to make a career choice. Will the income from mastering artisan or an elite crafting profession be worth it? Or is it a better decision to keep your current combat skills? In fact, it's the same choice that I made as a tailor. Do I want to harvest my own hides? Or would I rather keep my tailoring/armorsmith skills? I decided to forego scout/ranger and dedicate myself to crafting. I now buy my hides. These are the types of choices that define our characters and make interdependency work. At 50 steel and 40 copper PER MOLECULAR CLAMP thats 40k in copper and 50k in steel to make a full run of clamps, further more it breaks any chance at smugglers NOT being relient on you, see we have to take master marksman, brawler 4-0-0-0, in order to use harvestors then you would say that we have ot use OUR LITTLE REMAINING SKILL POINTS, to get artisen, well i GOT NEW FOR YOU, we dont get any KIND OF COMBAT SKILL MODS like accuracy, so we HAVE TO have other combat professions, if we want to have a chance, this would force us to be eityher social or combat and not to be a hybrid like WE ARE SOPPOSED TO BE!
And why is there panic about resource prices going through the roof? Remember when medium harvesters had a spec rate of 4 and heavies had a spec rate of 7? They didn't cost any less to run back then and resources were still being sold at 3 credits per unit. With cross-server lot trading, it's not uncommon to see miners in charge of fields of heavy harvesters (sometimes 100+ in the extreme cases). On Starsider, some resources have even fallen below the 1 credit mark. Harvester certifications would fix this and would bring the prices of resources back into line.
You think that any of this is gonna happen before or after the space expation? IT WON'T because every player will need ALL the steel he can get to make space ships. And do you really think that cross-server lot swapping will decrease? Its like the real life war on drugs BILLIONS of dollars spent and nothing is accomplished except to make matters worse. indeed i would get as many lots as possible and SO WOULD EVERYBODY ELSE, if their was money to be made in minerals. See resources be it hides, bones, minerals, or real life oil is called a PRICE TAKER MARKET. meaning you can ohly sale unlimited amuonts of a perticular product if you are saleing right above market value, also RIGHT ABOVE marginal cost...
Test me on cross server lot swapping! I WILL DESTROY VALCYNS ECONOMY IF THIS GOES THROUGH!
Alciril wrote:
Saabotage wrote:
Artisens complain to D.A.M.N.E.D. MUCH. Im a smuggler with 0 artisen skills!!!
I use metals and chemicals in my drugs as well as hides, oils, and other resources!
Why should you control the prices of my resources? You know Molecular clamps are not cheap to make honestly, not unless i harvest my own resources! If i did not i wouldn't be able to put clamps on teh bazaar for sale because they would cost to much to make to be within the 6k cap!
Further more, I have made 200k a week the last 2 weeks selling droid batteries. I get an artisen to make me a schematic then i load about 20k of ore into MY FACTORY, (ohh how about me useing factories for crafting, you selfish b,astards?), make about 40 crates of droid batteres and then sell crates at 6k per crate on the bazaar. THE ONLY REASON YOU DON"T MAKE MONEY IS BECUASE YOU DON'T TRY!
And to think as a master smuggler i was pushing for artisens to be able to harvest glitterstim ore from the ground.....Screw that idea NOW!
The only reason you're against artisan harvester certifications is because among others, you've been spoiled by the free use of harvesters.
LOL! How is that? I have 1 medium mineral Harvestor. 1 BER9 chemical harvestor, a chemical factory, equipment factory, 2 personal wind generators, a crafting house, and a storage house.
How ever if you like I will be happy to make 6 cross server lot swaps to ensure that i drive prices down to 1:2 credit/ore if you like!
You mentioned that you're a smuggler. No one complains that smugglers charge what the market will bear for providing their slicing services. Hypothetically, let's pretend that up to this pointsmuggler-craftedmolecular clamps were usable by anyone to slice their weapons. So rather than requiring the services of a slicer, someone only needs to buy a crate of clamps and then apply the slice themselves. Somewhere along the line, a smuggler suggests that smugglers, and smugglers alone, be the sole class that applies slices to items. Their reasoning is simple: slicing shouldn't be available to the general public and that giving it to smugglers just "makes sense". Would people complain? Of course they would. Complaining always happens when something is taken away--even if the change would be better for the game.
ok first LMAO!!! Ok, if you knew the meager living we a high level profession makes on slices, and spices, and how infrequently we acctually get to use our unerworld tree, and how much it cost US to use the underworld IV you wo7uldn't even bother saying this artisen is NOT a mining profession! its ONLY PART of your profession. You can sale droid batteries (im making a killing off them because artisens don't bother makeing them), bikes(lost 3 last week),power ups for weapons. On TOP of collecting the highest resources of ore, way easier then anybody could plop down a harvestor and do (it does cost money to redeed them).
And as for even if the change would be better for the game , that would be YOUR opinion. I dont think i want to give up any power/rights/playablity to socialist artisens, who want nothing more then to consolidate power into their own hands.
We're facing the same situation with harvesters. People who were in beta know that the last few months of testing were hectic and rushed. Professions were removed and their abilities distributed among other classes. Some things slipped through the cracks (the miner's harvester certifications were given to everyone, as were the industrialist's factory certifications). It's time to redistribute these privileges to the appropriate classes. No your not! And as calling you artisens socialist , well lined in red (nice color isn't it) is exactly what you think of ALL other professions. YOUR A BASIC PROFESSION DEAL WITH IT!
Personal harvesters are enough for any non-artisan class to fill their own personal resource needs. If you need medium or heavy harvesters in order to keep up with demands, then you need to make a career choice. Will the income from mastering artisan or an elite crafting profession be worth it? Or is it a better decision to keep your current combat skills? In fact, it's the same choice that I made as a tailor. Do I want to harvest my own hides? Or would I rather keep my tailoring/armorsmith skills? I decided to forego scout/ranger and dedicate myself to crafting. I now buy my hides. These are the types of choices that define our characters and make interdependency work. At 50 steel and 40 copper PER MOLECULAR CLAMP thats 40k in copper and 50k in steel to make a full run of clamps, further more it breaks any chance at smugglers NOT being relient on you, see we have to take master marksman, brawler 4-0-0-0, in order to use harvestors then you would say that we have ot use OUR LITTLE REMAINING SKILL POINTS, to get artisen, well i GOT NEW FOR YOU, we dont get any KIND OF COMBAT SKILL MODS like accuracy, so we HAVE TO have other combat professions, if we want to have a chance, this would force us to be eityher social or combat and not to be a hybrid like WE ARE SOPPOSED TO BE!
And why is there panic about resource prices going through the roof? Remember when medium harvesters had a spec rate of 4 and heavies had a spec rate of 7? They didn't cost any less to run back then and resources were still being sold at 3 credits per unit. With cross-server lot trading, it's not uncommon to see miners in charge of fields of heavy harvesters (sometimes 100+ in the extreme cases). On Starsider, some resources have even fallen below the 1 credit mark. Harvester certifications would fix this and would bring the prices of resources back into line.
You think that any of this is gonna happen before or after the space expation? IT WON'T because every player will need ALL the steel he can get to make space ships. And do you really think that cross-server lot swapping will decrease? Its like the real life war on drugs BILLIONS of dollars spent and nothing is accomplished except to make matters worse. indeed i would get as many lots as possible and SO WOULD EVERYBODY ELSE, if their was money to be made in minerals. See resources be it hides, bones, minerals, or real life oil is called a PRICE TAKER MARKET. meaning you can ohly sale unlimited amuonts of a perticular product if you are saleing right above market value, also RIGHT ABOVE marginal cost...
Test me on cross server lot swapping! I WILL DESTROY VALCYNS ECONOMY IF THIS GOES THROUGH!
Saabotage wrote:
Test me on cross server lot swapping! I WILL DESTROY VALCYNS ECONOMY IF THIS GOES THROUGH!
Gee, we're all quaking in our boots. That's about as disturbing as a 4 year old telling me he hates the colour of my Porche.
And for 100K generated, for the moment there is about 150K destroyed.
And dev plan to keep it that way for a little while, to reduce the inflation.
No, the ecomony IS player driven but it's governed by the Dev's. The Dev's have the power to influence the balance just like governments in real life but the day to day operations are still determined by the players/people. For every 100k generated, 150k is destroyed? Where you you pull this rubbish from? If that really was the case why are people complaining there is nothing to spend credits on? Why are people paying million upon millions for rare items? Because they can, ie. High levels of disposable income. Reduce inflation? Yes, I agree the Dev's would like to but frankly I don't think they know how. If only they listened to suggestions regardless of how unpopular they were.
Gavvot wrote:
Actually, this economy is not player driven, it is managed by the dev.
And for 100K generated, for the moment there is about 150K destroyed.
And dev plan to keep it that way for a little while, to reduce the inflation.
Bugbait wrote:
At present there is an abundance of resource evidenced by the fact theyonly sell for 2.5cpu to 5cpu on average (based on Valcyn) whilein shift.
garvin wrote:
My Alt is a Master Artisan and I still don't think Cert'ing the harvestors is a good ideas...there are more negatives in game then postives to this idea...so here are a few suggestions to think about instead (and I've also seen plenty more good ideas floating out there)
- Allow an Artisan to chemically enhance certain harvested materials to create better versions (like combining 2 different types of Aluminum to create a hybrid average of the two)...
Srednii wrote:
Considering 2.5cpu is a hefty hefty profit, how do you conclude that there's too many resources being mined?
If there were too many resources being mined... wouldn't prices drop below costs?
You consider 2.5cpu a hefty profit? Maybe when compared to the 0.5cpu or less it costs to harvest it but not when compared to the 25cpu+ that it can turn into when crafted into goods. Let's see, 0.5cpu to 2.5cpu. Wow, a whole 2cpu profit or 500%. Not too shabby. Now compare 0.5cpu to 25cpu for an even heftier24.5cpu profit, now that's looking much healthier isn't it? A good repair kit can sell for 1000 to 5000+ (for 100% kits). That's 66cpu or more. So how is 2.5cpu a good profit?
Mining would stop before it dropped below cost unless the server is populated by fools. You don't have to wait until the market is completely saturated to conclude that resoruces are in abundance.