Artisan Archive
Thread: So you want to cert harvs? Fine. Here's a proposal you won't like...
Srednii
Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:59 pm
#40
heh, the one star whiner is back, frantically trying to accomplish whatever it is the people who one star try to accomplish.
My money's still on Joined 
tho that bianca chick seems bitter enough to be a contender.
tho that bianca chick seems bitter enough to be a contender.(and weren't personal's BER 2 before? or were they BER 1? I can't remember it was so long ago, and I do so love my BER 4 personals)
HalasterTheBlack
Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:02 pm
#41
I really don't think it's Joined. He has the abilty to articulate clear thoughts, apply logic, at least make a good argument.
He doesn't need to resort to one-stars.
BiancaMinola
Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:10 pm
#42
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
BiancaMinola wrote:
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
Bianca, if you cert harvesters on the survey line, you will cut resource influx to 5-10% of what it is now. Think about what that will do to the economy. It is one thing to be consistent. It is another thing entirely to be so blindly consistent that it ruins the game.
Surveying - AND harvesters have already been nerfed because they were 'too efficient' before. If I believed that there wouldn't be enough resources with certs (which I don't - how many of us don't even bother to mine anymore) I would also be able to believe that the devs would 'un-nerf' them.
Would that be the nerf where they increased the max BERon a heavy rig from 10 to 13?
If you missed the survey nerfs, do a search - it used to be THE item in this forum. You didn't contradict my point here, that means you gave it to me, right?
Let's suppose that the resources did dry up, and take a jump in price. Those of us who believe in the 'magic hand' of economics wouldn't be worried, The market will set a fair value - and if resources are higher that FV, more people will choose to invest their points in the skillset,the supply will increase, and those who choose to invest their skill points wisely will reap a financial reward.
Except if the resources are so constrained that enough CANNOT enter the economy. This is NOT a IRL economy where people HAVE to do stuff they don't like to get by - food, shelter, etc. If you make a BH take Artisan, he's gonna quit the game.
Noone HAS to survey here - it is a choice. My subscription is up the end of July - SWG loses me if Artisans don't get some respect by then. Using your logic, why don't all the artisans quit because they have to spend some skill points in weapons skills so they aren't killed by bunnies or gang members when they are out trying to do some "artisan related" thing in the wilds? I will give this point to you if you begin to campaign for artisan relief from unwanted PvE.
I would be a little more concerned about market fluctuations if people were starving with the price of corellian wheat being so high, but since this is a game, and the economy is supposed to be a part of the game - and noone has to eat to live in the game - the panic of virtual inflation is a little whiney if I may use your term.
It is? Can you name anyone who wants to pay 2.5 mil for a suit of composite armor? 170k or more for a T21? 1.5mil for a single harvester (they'd probably be more higly impacted, so more like 15 mil for one). Where are people going to get that money?
Maybethey can just set up terminals that spit out cash whenever you push a button, seeing as how there is no way for a combat centered character to make money other than Harvesting <sarcasm>. The relation between resources used and price is vague at best, except for the architects.
Bianca Minola
Why not just let everyone do anything they want??
Because at that point SWG loses it's value as a game, and becomes a fancy chat room with griefers.
Bianca Minola
HalasterTheBlack
Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:18 pm
#43
BiancaMinola wrote:
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
BiancaMinola wrote:
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
Bianca, if you cert harvesters on the survey line, you will cut resource influx to 5-10% of what it is now. Think about what that will do to the economy. It is one thing to be consistent. It is another thing entirely to be so blindly consistent that it ruins the game.
Surveying - AND harvesters have already been nerfed because they were 'too efficient' before. If I believed that there wouldn't be enough resources with certs (which I don't - how many of us don't even bother to mine anymore) I would also be able to believe that the devs would 'un-nerf' them.
Would that be the nerf where they increased the max BERon a heavy rig from 10 to 13?
If you missed the survey nerfs, do a search - it used to be THE item in this forum. You didn't contradict my point here, that means you gave it to me, right?
Are you talking about the survey nerf where they reduce the number of resouces you can draw hand-sampling? Who cares?
Let's suppose that the resources did dry up, and take a jump in price. Those of us who believe in the 'magic hand' of economics wouldn't be worried, The market will set a fair value - and if resources are higher that FV, more people will choose to invest their points in the skillset,the supply will increase, and those who choose to invest their skill points wisely will reap a financial reward.
Except if the resources are so constrained that enough CANNOT enter the economy. This is NOT a IRL economy where people HAVE to do stuff they don't like to get by - food, shelter, etc. If you make a BH take Artisan, he's gonna quit the game.
Noone HAS to survey here - it is a choice. My subscription is up the end of July - SWG loses me if Artisans don't get some respect by then. Using your logic, why don't all the artisans quit because they have to spend some skill points in weapons skills so they aren't killed by bunnies or gang members when they are out trying to do some "artisan related" thing in the wilds? I will give this point to you if you begin to campaign for artisan relief from unwanted PvE.
LOL. My Weaponsmith has zero... ZERO... combat skills. He hasn't been killed ONCE in all the time I've had him out surveying waypoints and standing about waiting for other toons to arrive to drop harvesters. If you suck, don't take it out on the entirety of the playerbase. And Artisans have plenty of respect. Powerups. Vehicles. Comps that DE's and WS's MUST have to produce some of the top tier stuff they produce. What more could you want from a BASE profession? To hold the elites hostage COMPLETELY for resources? I say NO.
I would be a little more concerned about market fluctuations if people were starving with the price of corellian wheat being so high, but since this is a game, and the economy is supposed to be a part of the game - and noone has to eat to live in the game - the panic of virtual inflation is a little whiney if I may use your term.
It is? Can you name anyone who wants to pay 2.5 mil for a suit of composite armor? 170k or more for a T21? 1.5mil for a single harvester (they'd probably be more higly impacted, so more like 15 mil for one). Where are people going to get that money?
Maybethey can just set up terminals that spit out cash whenever you push a button, seeing as how there is no way for a combat centered character to make money other than Harvesting . The relation between resources used and price is vague at best, except for the architects.
Why make such a device when you can have those combat characters spend a portion of their playtime contributing to the economy by harvesting resources that the crafters need to make them guns and ammo, and then buying said guns and ammo back from the crafters? Ford pays Rouge Steel for body panels. Rouge steel pays the mining company for metal. Rouge Steel and the Mining Company pay their employees for their work. Said employees buy Ford cars and trucks. That's an economy. That's what we have. Let's don't screw it up just because you can't figure out how to survey without dying.
Bianca Minola
Why not just let everyone do anything they want??
Because at that point SWG loses it's value as a game, and becomes a fancy chat room with griefers.
Bianca Minola
HalasterTheBlack
Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:19 pm
#44
People who one-star are incapable of presenting articulate, logical arguments. That would rule you out.
Didn't say it was a *good* argument, just an articulate one based upon logic. 
Message Edited by HalasterTheBlack on 06-20-2004 12:20 AM
BiancaMinola
Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:36 pm
#45
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
LOL. My Weaponsmith has zero... ZERO... combat skills. He hasn't been killed ONCE in all the time I've had him out surveying waypoints and standing about waiting for other toons to arrive to drop harvesters. If you suck, don't take it out on the entirety of the playerbase. And Artisans have plenty of respect. Powerups. Vehicles. Comps that DE's and WS's MUST have to produce some of the top tier stuff they produce. What more could you want from a BASE profession? To hold the elites hostage COMPLETELY for resources? I say NO.
You are using the profession argument again, tsk-tsk.
My playing abilities aside, If the arguement is so absurd from the Artisan POV, why is it not from the BH's?
Why make such a device when you can have those combat characters spend a portion of their playtime contributing to the economy by harvesting resources that the crafters need to make them guns and ammo, and then buying said guns and ammo back from the crafters? Ford pays Rouge Steel for body panels. Rouge steel pays the mining company for metal. Rouge Steel and the Mining Company pay their employees for their work. Said employees buy Ford cars and trucks. That's an economy. That's what we have. Let's don't screw it up just because you can't figure out how to survey without dying.
And Rogue Steel has absolutely no qualifications for their employees? Any idiot can walk in off the street and run their equipment as well as a veteren without seriously damaging it, themselves, or other employees? Well then, once again using your argument,why can't any idiot pick up a gun, and shoot someone for the same damage as the Master BH?
Bianca Minola
Bianca Minola
HalasterTheBlack
Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:40 pm
#46
Rouge Steel certainly has qualifications for their employees. Well, training at least.
But my point is, Rouge Steel is not the MINER. Rouge Steel (and Ford) are the ARTISANS.
They get training or are certified in turning raw materials into components or products. They do not get training nor are they certified in mining.
ARTISANS ARE NOT MINERS.
BOUNTY HUNTERS ARE NOT MINERS.
If you want certifications, let's put them where they belong - in a Miner class.
Toplace themsolely in Artisan(Survey or not)is to both be illogical AND to make Artisan far more powerful than it should be.
Srednii
Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:45 pm
#47
I die occassionally as a crafter , just a couple days ago on endor in fact. On my way back from checking my crism ore mines I got killed at the outpost as I stepped off my speeder. It seems someone had lured a super battle droid there and it killed me so easily that it didn't even damage me (or at least no damage showed in my combat chat window), I can only assume it gave me a nasty look and I dropped dead from fright .
, just a couple days ago on endor in fact. On my way back from checking my crism ore mines I got killed at the outpost as I stepped off my speeder. It seems someone had lured a super battle droid there and it killed me so easily that it didn't even damage me (or at least no damage showed in my combat chat window), I can only assume it gave me a nasty look and I dropped dead from fright .Teach me for blindly assuming the outpost was safe just cause I'd never seen anything agro there before .
.
HalasterTheBlack
Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:58 pm
#48
Heh, I hate those things. Even on my "uber" adventurer, the best I can do is ignore them while they try to hurt me (they fail, at least). Can't damage them at all... Nasty, boringcritters.
Now run my WS into one of THOSE... yeah, toast. Guess I'm lucky I haven't ported into one of them yet.
BiancaMinola
Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:09 pm
#49
When I was Correspondent, the revival of the miner was a long-standing wish of the community.
The devs said NO. They wouldn't even discuss it.
So giving you the point that certifications 'belong' in a miner profession, does not change the fact that certifications would breath some life into the economic 'game' of SWG. So would a commodities market, the ability to make contracts, rent lots from each other...etc.
While we are here bickering over one of the many ideas that have been forewarded to make SWG a more interesting game, we are forgetting the fact that the developers have not, and apparently will not discuss anything with the Artisan community.
We all have different ideas about what the game needs - I think Harvester Certification is a good, and FAIR idea. Take that for what you will.
The REAL problem that is plaguing Artisans is an absolutely apathetic Dev. team responce to anything and everything that is not combat/jedi related.
Bianca Minola
Srednii
Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:45 pm
#50
BiancaMinola wrote:
The REAL problem that is plaguing Artisans is an absolutely apathetic Dev. team responce to anything and everything that is not combat/jedi related.
Bianca Minola
I agree with you here 100% unfortunately 
, but it gets to the point where you gotta ask yourself if you're having fun or not. Quit or stay. It's the devs game and they can code how they want to. Nothing we want will make a difference to them without us backing it up by quiting.
, but it gets to the point where you gotta ask yourself if you're having fun or not. Quit or stay. It's the devs game and they can code how they want to. Nothing we want will make a difference to them without us backing it up by quiting.I'm still having fun. The devs are the most heartless, money grubbing, evil bunch of non gamers I've seen. They care about the bottom dollah, not the players, not the game, and we have no chance of changing that. But I'm still having fun. For now.
I'm satisified with the way resources are mined. I think a miner class would be neat (mostly cause I'd take it myself and thus be even more independant then I am now), but I don't think there's a chance in hell the devs will add it. I don't like the idea of harvester certs cause it hurts me with my 2 accounts. I also don't think the devs will add certs, so in this instance their pathetic inability to do more then frantically try to finish the game a year after realease works in my favor.
If I did think the resource harvesting system was horribly broken I wouldn't get all up in arms about harvester certs, mostly cause there's no point. I'd evaluate if I was having fun and either quit or stay.
The devs don't care about us
outtacontrol
Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:40 am
#52
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
To expand on a point that sred made...
Yes, combat professions make a LOT more money than artisans doing their missions. But they have to be AT THE KEYS to make their money.
Me, my factories are running RIGHT NOW even though my Weaponsmith is in logout land. My vendors are selling stuff RIGHT NOW even though my merchant is fast asleep, nowhere near thinking about logging in.
So, yeah, give the combat profs their mission cash and then some. They work hard for it. And then they pay *us* with the cash they earn while we sleep.
I clearly stated that an elite combat professionals abilty to draw high paying missions is a earned ability. But how is it that they too can mine when they are fast asleep. And yes they have to be at the keyboard but 200k an hour then OMG I just looted +8 armor experimentation tape( 3-6 million on the trade forums) what crafter is pulling that kind of money? Also crafters need to be at the keyboard to experiment. and you make it sound as though your vendor is the Walmart of SWG no vendor has a steady stream of customers yes there are some good days when your logged off and you make a nice piece of change but those are random. Open mining is probably here to stay but that dont make it fair. Iike the lady said every aspect of the game is skill/experience based but when it comes to mining anyone can do it and not only can they do itsome of these same combat guys are running 20-40 harvesters while they sleep. they also put the uber loots on the forums while they sleep. Someone please call out the calvary to disrupt this preception of free enterprise gone wild(just wanted to throw that in). In reality it is enuf to make one give up his crafting and join em
Outta