Artisan Archive
Thread: So you want to cert harvs? Fine. Here's a proposal you won't like...
Srednii
Sat Jun 19, 2004 6:24 am
#27
I miss Sinist 
. After a while it got to the point where his posts were just hilarious.
. After a while it got to the point where his posts were just hilarious.
Flynn_Nomad
Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:45 am
#28
I have never replied to the Harvestor Certification threads in hopes that they would go away if no one paid attention to them....
Houses, factories, and harvestors are ALL very similar, in that they are structures purchased and used by common players.
If you have a cert for ONE you need to have a cert for ALL.
I could start a whole thread on "Are you a carpenter? Are you a Mason?.Then why the hell should you be able to drop a house or a factory???"
NOT SAYING Certiications for harvestors are COMPLETELY STUPID, there are MANY valid arguments.
BUT the game can only get SO detailed. If you took ALL the crafted items and used your arguments on "who should be able to equip or use them", the game would get too big!
You would need at LEAST the following professions, using your cert arguments....
MINER ( Artisans and Architects make them, why should you know how to use them?)
FISHERMAN (You bought it, but who taught you to use it?)
VEHICLELiscense (Where did you get a liscence to operate a vehicle?)
INTERIOR DECORATOR (Just because an Architect crafted the stuff, it would be cool to have a skill for decorating)
CARPENTER (How do you know how to build a house? An Arch made it, a Carpenter should get paid to build/drop it)
DROID HANDLER (A DE crafted the droid, who taught you how to operate it?)
Weapons have Certifcations, how come armor doesn't? Should you be "in shape" to wear it?
If we certified EVERY darn crafted item in the game, the game would get too big.
I'm personally pissed about Pilot but where do we draw the lines on who can use what?
outtacontrol
Sat Jun 19, 2004 6:09 pm
#29
hey halaster and srednii can you guys at least admit that something is wrong in the basic distribution skill points as it pretains to resource harvesting. I have since day one said that harvester certs may not be the solution I always felt it was like killing a fly with a bazooka. I am all for the issue being addressed however the dev,s see fit, but at least address the problem dayum. you two have probably been the most outspoken opponents of certs and have made some very valid arguments. but yet with all being said the issue of 15 skill points being needed for harvesting creature organics, the further skill point investment needed for ranger to more efficiently locate and harvest. Now when it comes to havesting resouces why is it there is absolutely no check and balance system, none no skill points investment nothing. If miner/farmer were professions i would gladly invest my skill points there. but for the elite combat professionals to weild the ability to kill,loot and harvest all at once is unbalanced. if youlook atdefense stacking, is this not in essencea form of stacking also? these guys reap millions offloots and with cross server trading may have 10-20 harvesters running and pull 20k+ missions all simultaneously and that is unbalanced Stevie Wonder can see that. that fellas needs to be addressed...
Outta
Master Chef
Master Artisan
Master Merchant
Marskman /0/4/0/0
Medic 0/0/0/0
BiancaMinola
Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:22 pm
#30
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
I say you won't like it to those of you whining because the only support I see you using in your whines is that you can't find a way to make money as a Master Artisan. Guess what? IT'S A NOVICE PROFESSION! It's not supposed to make you rich, any more than Master Brawler will enable you to solo a Kimogila.
_________________________________________________________
This is exactly the mentality that makes it impossible to get anything done in this game. This is not about professions, it's about skillsets.
I would agree with your point that Artisans are not supposed to be the 'rich' profession - if this game were designed into the rigid professions that most MMORPGs are. SWG, as the developers have explained it time and time again, is not supposed to be profession based, but skills based.
This is why they have certified weapons. It is why you must be a scout to skin an animal, or move at a reasonable speed on foot. You must expend skill points in certain areas, if you want to reap thereward of that skill. Why is it so difficult for thesame to apply to those skillsets that are supposed to belong to Artisans? Because the majority of players are not Artisans, and they want to reap our benefits for free.
The developers have said that the miner WILL NOT be coming back. That being the case, it makes sense to attach the certifications in the Survey tree (which is fully 1/4 of our 'profession'and is next to worthless.
The arguement isn't about being greedy, or whiny, it's about having the same respect for our skillsets that other classes now enjoy. It's about fairness. It's about having something in the game that you have to consciously choose to sacrifice for. It removes the ability to mine for free from everyone, and gives everyone the choice to trade their skill points for a skillset that will reward them.
Or were you just trolling?
Bianca Minola
Srednii
Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:26 pm
#31
To be honest I don't think there's anything wrong. The way I see it the devs have two choices.
1) have a elite miner proffession with everyone else only having access to personals (tho even that would be a bit much with the BER 4 personals being so easy to make). or
2) have all harvesters usuable by everyone.
And since I think the game is more fun without artificial shortages, I like having mining open to all so that there's a reasonable number of resource available to buy. (I don't give two rat's asses about the grind crap that seems to be everywhere. I'm talking about high quality/high price materials)
And since the devs have chosen not to have the elite miner class (which I would take in a heartbeat) then we have what we have now, mining open to all. Certs are never going to happen because the certs would be for the elite miner class, which the devs don't want.
And there's a vast vast difference between harvestables, and minables. The amounts of various minerals I need could never in a million years be supplied by the half assed supply that we have for hide/bone and meat.
You say you think it's unfair that combat people can run their missions for money, while looting uber loot to sell, all while harvesting minerals for sale.
But that's no different from crafters.
Crafters can craft their goods for sale, all while harvesting minerals at the exact same time for sale or use.
Nobody in the game right now has spent any skill points on mining because the devs took the miner out of the game. To me it's either what we have now (open mining) or the elite miner class. calls for Cert's given to basic artisan (lol), or even all the elite crafters (including docs/cm's/be's/ect or not) just arn't the solution I think is vaible.
Oh and on a side note... if Miner was added... I'd want at master miner to have the terrain constraints on harvesters lifted, or at least eased a bit. That would be the best bonus of all for me, the ability to place heavy's on terrain that non miners couldn't.
HalasterTheBlack
Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:28 pm
#32
Outta, no, I won't admit that because I see no problem with the way resources are drawn. The only problem I have is x-server harvester trades.
Bianca, if you cert harvesters on the survey line, you will cut resource influx to 5-10% of what it is now. Think about what that will do to the economy. It is one thing to be consistent. It is another thing entirely to be so blindly consistent that it ruins the game.
Again, this was not me saying I wanted the devs to implement Miner (though I do). This was an alternative that I set forth to prove that the whiners at the time were all about greed.
Srednii
Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:30 pm
#33
BiancaMinola wrote:
This is why they have certified weapons. It is why you must be a scout to skin an animal, or move at a reasonable speed on foot. You must expend skill points in certain areas, if you want to reap thereward of that skill. Why is it so difficult for thesame to apply to those skillsets that are supposed to belong to Artisans? Because the majority of players are not Artisans, and they want to reap our benefits for free.
Mining isn't a skillset that belongs to artisan, it belongs to the Elite Miner proffession... which they removed and arn't adding back into the game.
Artisan isn't even remotely the logical choice for this skill set to be applied to. If I thought they'd add certs I think they would be best given to the merchant proff.
(and survey is hardly worthless)
HalasterTheBlack
Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:31 pm
#34
To expand on a point that sred made...
Yes, combat professions make a LOT more money than artisans doing their missions. But they have to be AT THE KEYS to make their money.
Me, my factories are running RIGHT NOW even though my Weaponsmith is in logout land. My vendors are selling stuff RIGHT NOW even though my merchant is fast asleep, nowhere near thinking about logging in.
So, yeah, give the combat profs their mission cash and then some. They work hard for it. And then they pay *us* with the cash they earn while we sleep.
Velisimner
Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:37 pm
#35
I totally like this proposal you have made. Though some minor changes need to be implemented.
oh yea and when in the hell did this whole issue involve being a master artisan? the skill tree in question is surveying.
Granted Artisan is a novice profession. however, if everyone can pull up resources you create a saturated market. and prices go down way down and eventually miners just stop because harvesters cost too much due to resource gouging and they cant sell there product for anything.
I know there is a balance that can be reached between the players and the players that enjoy the mining aspect. I say bring on the miner profession, use this guys model as a basis for it. a miner profession, if done right, would be an amazing attribute to the in-game player economy. however this whole entire debate isnt really a huge matter to the devs who are concentrating on JTL and the combat rebalancing and such.
The current resource market is shot, due mainly to the "holo-grind" i dont forsee the market stabalizing, even after publish 9. something needs to be done.
Commandos and Bounty Hunters should make their money from something related to their profession, and let the Artisans do the same.
BiancaMinola
Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:43 pm
#36
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
Bianca, if you cert harvesters on the survey line, you will cut resource influx to 5-10% of what it is now. Think about what that will do to the economy. It is one thing to be consistent. It is another thing entirely to be so blindly consistent that it ruins the game.
Surveying - AND harvesters have already been nerfed because they were 'too efficient' before. If I believed that there wouldn't be enough resources with certs (which I don't - how many of us don't even bother to mine anymore) I would also be able to believe that the devs would 'un-nerf' them.
Let's suppose that the resources did dry up, and take a jump in price. Those of us who believe in the 'magic hand' of economics wouldn't be worried, The market will set a fair value - and if resources are higher that FV, more people will choose to invest their points in the skillset,the supply will increase, and those who choose to invest their skill points wisely will reap a financial reward.
I would be a little more concerned about market fluctuations if people were starving with the price of corellian wheat being so high, but since this is a game, and the economy is supposed to be a part of the game - and noone has to eat to live in the game - the panic of virtual inflation is a little whiney if I may use your term.
Bianca Minola
HalasterTheBlack
Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:44 pm
#37
Velisimner wrote:
I totally like this proposal you have made. Though some minor changes need to be implemented.
oh yea and when in the hell did this whole issue involve being a master artisan? the skill tree in question is surveying.
Surveying, with heavies at Master Artisan seems to be the most popular. This will reduce resource influx to 5-10% of what it is now, by my estimation. This is a Very Bad Thing.
Granted Artisan is a novice profession. however, if everyone can pull up resources you create a saturated market. and prices go down way down and eventually miners just stop because harvesters cost too much due to resource gouging and they cant sell there product for anything.
Hmm.. let's see. One aspect of a saturated market is low prices. Prices at or approaching cost. For minerals, resource cost hovers around 0.5cr per unit (edit: on current spawns). On my server, miners are getting up to 5.00cr per unit. That is NOT saturated. And everyone can draw now. What do you think would happen to the prices if only Artisans could mine? Note, I haven't even begun the argument that most artisans haven't the capacity to mine because their lots are pretty full of factories and houses...
I know there is a balance that can be reached between the players and the players that enjoy the mining aspect. I say bring on the miner profession, use this guys model as a basis for it. a miner profession, if done right, would be an amazing attribute to the in-game player economy. however this whole entire debate isnt really a huge matter to the devs who are concentrating on JTL and the combat rebalancing and such.
Agree, but it was dropped due to time / resource constraints in early beta. It isn't coming back, no matter how many of us might really like to play one.
The current resource market is shot, due mainly to the "holo-grind" i dont forsee the market stabalizing, even after publish 9. something needs to be done.
Please explain how it's "shot". See above - miners are making a nice profit still...
Commandos and Bounty Hunters should make their money from something related to their profession, and let the Artisans do the same.
Artisans craft stuff. Let them (us) make their (our) money crafting. Miners mine stuff. THERE ARE NO MINERS IN THIS GAME. Let's put it this way. Artisans are like Ford Motor Company. Ford makes cars. Ford does NOT mine metal. Mining companies mine metal and sell it to Ford. Or to Ford's suppliers. In the absence of a miner class, the devs have enabled us ALL to mine. It was a good call. Changing it to certs the way most seem to want them will be hugely detrimental to the economy.
Message Edited by HalasterTheBlack on 06-19-2004 11:49 PM
HalasterTheBlack
Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:47 pm
#38
BiancaMinola wrote:
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
Bianca, if you cert harvesters on the survey line, you will cut resource influx to 5-10% of what it is now. Think about what that will do to the economy. It is one thing to be consistent. It is another thing entirely to be so blindly consistent that it ruins the game.
Surveying - AND harvesters have already been nerfed because they were 'too efficient' before. If I believed that there wouldn't be enough resources with certs (which I don't - how many of us don't even bother to mine anymore) I would also be able to believe that the devs would 'un-nerf' them.
Would that be the nerf where they increased the max BERon a heavy rig from 10 to 13?
Let's suppose that the resources did dry up, and take a jump in price. Those of us who believe in the 'magic hand' of economics wouldn't be worried, The market will set a fair value - and if resources are higher that FV, more people will choose to invest their points in the skillset,the supply will increase, and those who choose to invest their skill points wisely will reap a financial reward.
Except if the resources are so constrained that enough CANNOT enter the economy. This is NOT a IRL economy where people HAVE to do stuff they don't like to get by - food, shelter, etc. If you make a BH take Artisan, he's gonna quit the game.
I would be a little more concerned about market fluctuations if people were starving with the price of corellian wheat being so high, but since this is a game, and the economy is supposed to be a part of the game - and noone has to eat to live in the game - the panic of virtual inflation is a little whiney if I may use your term.
It is? Can you name anyone who wants to pay 2.5 mil for a suit of composite armor? 170k or more for a T21? 1.5mil for a single harvester (they'd probably be more higly impacted, so more like 15 mil for one). Where are people going to get that money?
Bianca Minola
HalasterTheBlack
Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:55 pm
#39
Is that the best retort you got? One star.
What a Loser.