Artisan Archive
Thread: I use 20 crates of Power ups a day and...
The "resource glut" argument doesn't pan out - sorry. It's too late in the game to change something like this. By abruptly choking supply, you will cause two successive and devasting events to the world (game) economy ... depression followed shortly by hyper-inflation.
Depression because the 'glut' you're so worried about will be sold off at fire sale prices and there will be massive hoarding by a small % of the player base. I don't mean just resources, I mean EVERYTHING because there would be a mass exodus of current crafters.
After the dust settles, prices will skyrocket to ridiculous levels. Two very distinct classes will emerge ... elite (can afford the ridiculous prices) and the new or poor class. Middle class (income players) are a very small % in a hyper-inflation economy. Once the economy is like this, its virtually impossible to fix. You can see that right now in the game - anytime there is a hint that supply is being crimped on something or deemed remotely rare, prices skyrocket.::::cough::::: Avian Meat ::::cough::::::
SOE most likely knows this will happen and won't (CAN'T) allow for itTO happen tothe game because it will be frustrating for new players joining - therefore, choking their potential subscription growth.
You need to see the big picture and not cut off your nose to spite your face. If any changes happen to certs, it has to be done GLOBALLY reflecting ALL professions and player classes. In fact, it may be that if certs were to be introduced, it shouldn't be just artisans but all crafting professions. Whatever the case, it's not a ARTISAN issue ... its a game economy issue and should be address GLOBALY (if its deemed necessary, which is unlikely).
Personally, my only issue is cross-server lot trades of which I believe do damage to the economy - not certs. This can resolved without introducting certs however.
I agree that it would cause a depression and hyper-inflation as you call it but I don't see it as a bad thing. I've already addressed this in another post or maybe a few by now so not going over it again. I suggest you brush up on your economic theory. At the end of the day you can't charge more than what people are willing to pay. You can stand there all day and tell someone why your armour is worth 2 million credits but if no one can pay 2 million it won't sell. What will happen is a differentiation in the market place as you've stated but I see this as a positive move. There will be those who cater for the elite or rich, the middle class (bulk of players), and the poor (new players). This is better than a system where the bulk of players can afford to shop with the best which is where the current market sits.
Sevardos wrote:
The "resource glut" argument doesn't pan out - sorry. It's too late in the game to change something like this. By abruptly choking supply, you will cause two successive and devasting events to the world (game) economy ... depression followed shortly by hyper-inflation.
Depression because the 'glut' you're so worried about will be sold off at fire sale prices and there will be massive hoarding by a small % of the player base. I don't mean just resources, I mean EVERYTHING because there would be a mass exodus of current crafters.
After the dust settles, prices will skyrocket to ridiculous levels. Two very distinct classes will emerge ... elite (can afford the ridiculous prices) and the new or poor class. Middle class (income players) are a very small % in a hyper-inflation economy. Once the economy is like this, its virtually impossible to fix. You can see that right now in the game - anytime there is a hint that supply is being crimped on something or deemed remotely rare, prices skyrocket.::::cough::::: Avian Meat ::::cough::::::
SOE most likely knows this will happen and won't (CAN'T) allow for itTO happen tothe game because it will be frustrating for new players joining - therefore, choking their potential subscription growth.
You need to see the big picture and not cut off your nose to spite your face. If any changes happen to certs, it has to be done GLOBALLY reflecting ALL professions and player classes. In fact, it may be that if certs were to be introduced, it shouldn't be just artisans but all crafting professions. Whatever the case, it's not a ARTISAN issue ... its a game economy issue and should be address GLOBALY (if its deemed necessary, which is unlikely).
Personally, my only issue is cross-server lot trades of which I believe do damage to the economy - not certs. This can resolved without introducting certs however.
Bugbait wrote:
No matter how much you stockpile you will eventually run out of the best materials and that's how it's meant to be. If they wanted everyone to always make the best quality ofgoods there wouldn't be resource shifts. Or the resource quality wouldn't be random but instead slowly increase in quality over time. This is not the case. I hope you can agree on that logic. The problem is that every crafter thinks they should be able to make the best items all the time. This is what pushes the prices on out of shift and rarer materials up. Do you pay 10cpu+ for materials that are in shift? I sure hope not.
Part of the current problem is the mindset of the elite crafters that their products should always be improving.The point of random quality, quantity, and types of shifts is that the quality of products will and shouldfluctuate over time. Knowing this, the best of the best consumables should carry a premium. At the moment, I'm guessing they don't. Crafters always want to use the best materials they can for mark ups and reputation. I would argue this is not how the economy is meant to behave. The point of shifts is so the quality of crafted goods will fluctate over time adding another dimension to the game. The abundance of resources has allowed elite crafters to accept nothing less than the best for too long.
I wasn't talking to you there Bugbait, I was trying to explain to AudioOrgana why there is no resource glut. AO seems like they may actually be reasonable about it, and so I have hope they'll be swayed by sound argument.
You on the other hand just seem to be a slightly more coherent Sinist clone, arguing endlessly that harvester certs are needed because of some elusive "balance" or "integrity" that for some reason only you see is lacking in the game. There's no point arguing with you cause you're just as fanaticall as sinist.
Translation: Couldn't find a fault in my logic. Thanks for trying though
Srednii wrote:
You on the other hand just seem to be a slightly more coherent Sinist clone, arguing endlessly that harvester certs are needed because of some elusive "balance" or "integrity" that for some reason only you see is lacking in the game. There's no point arguing with you cause you're just as fanaticall as sinist.
.
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
>> The abundance of resources has allowed elite crafters to accept nothing less than the best for too long.
Would you rather drive a '89 Yugo, '98 Ford, or '05 Mercedes?
What if they were all the same price, or priced within 10-20% of each other?
Defconn wrote:
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
But tell me, why do you sink to the level of insult when you were actually able to provide reasonable logic to refute the poster you replied to? That sort of thing is normally only done when one expends his ability to reason yet still doesn't want to give up on the argument.
Sinmple. Because the original poster insults our intelligence by making eroneous claims and expects us to be stupid enough to believe it. Unfortunately, gross exagerration, and the ability to only view one side of the coin is rampant on this forum. People will say anything, because in a non-"face-to-face" forum, they don't feel accountable. I will call BS, BS when I see it simply because it is, and I favour the blunt, direct approach.
No-one uses 20 crates of power-ups a day consistently. I make them for a living, and I have records of all my customers (I'm one of those without a life, so I keep a database).
The highest consumption rate I have seen so far, and this is intermittent, is about 6 crates a day (an average maintained for 4 days) from a hologrinder grinding out a melee combat profession (TKA or MHS). I have about 30 customers who buy exclusively from me, and their average consumption rates are about 2 crates from Mon - Fri, and about 5 crates over the weekend. They usually restock fortnightly.
The highest consumption of power-ups are by people grinding melee professions and using area attacks. Ranged attackers fire a single shot at a time, hence my math is sound in this respect.
Also, on the assumtion that a TKM or MHS is grinding missions for credits, mobs spawn at the average rate of 3 per cycle (the common exception being the Geo Caves where spawn rates can double or triple or hunting NS on Dath), 10 crates of powerups is 10,000 seconds. Assuming you are capped on speed, this will lose you 3 charges per second or 3,333 attacks. At speed cap, this is 2.78 hours, far longer than the duration of an entertainer's buff, unless you double buffed, in which case the entertainer's buffs would last you 4 hours. These calculation are made WITHOUT taking into consideration going back for missions, looking for NS spawns on Dath, or the respawn time of 3 mins at the Geo Caves.
A bug, unless detected, and reported should not be used as an argument. And no professions should be reliant on a bug for income. So far, the hipothetical bug of increased power-up consumption has not been officially reported, nor proven. Hence the math provided by SOE is the only official reference.
With 2 outlets operating in high population areas of the galaxy, my average sale of powerups is at around 250 crates a week of 3 major types @ an average of 2k per crate (I pay commissions to the owner of the 2nd outlet) or 500k credits a week. Not too bad, hence I maintain the product range. But solo missions on Dath make me a mil every 2 hours anyway, so I only do this for fun. It is not a business that can sustain a player.
Also, we can assume that not all of us have the RL money or time to have 6 accounts, with 5 grinding out saleable products to sustain a single combat account. So, whatever "solution" to the Artisan dilemma has to accomodate the lowest common denominator, i.e. 1 single account. That means...investment in points to make Master Artisan, plus being able to do combat occassionally to farm credits. Not too difficult and definitely doable.
BUT to only make the argument that Master Artisan is enough because there are so many things we can make that others need is pretty silly, as is posted in another thread. Let's see...
a) Droid batteries - I was sooo excited about selling my 10th crate...after producing them about 3 months ago.
b) Crafting tools - everyone uses one. And everyone can make one very early in the artisan profession. Which is why there are probably 500 or more on the bazaar at any one time.
c) Personal Harvesters - see b) above.
d) Vehicles - maybe when they re-introduce force powers to the NS on Dath, some of these may actually blow-up. As it stands, they are repairable to full condition, and will last forever unless their condition reaches zero.
e) Vehicle Customization Kits - the only people who actually bother about customization are the AV-21 drivers, and these are few. There is a small market for individual kits, and sell at about 2 crates a week at my 2 outlets. Perhaps I should make them lower quality i.e. less charges, then perhaps I would sell more? This nets me about 135k per week.
f) Electronic GP modules, memory modules and other Master Artisan electronics - I remember making a single schem of each (2 types) for a crafter (don't remember what type) 2 months ago, and selling them at 3k per crate. I believe he is still using them today. Droids aren't exactly flying off vendors, and not everybody buys stun batons by the crate. These products produce 0 turnover at present.
g) Travel packs - "Armoursmiths go through this like water" was stated in another post. So, Armoursmiths use packs to sell complete suits of armour, usually the high quality kind that goes for 250k per suit. Since packs are easy to make, and let's say that an armoursmith sells 100 high quality suits a week, that's 4 crates @ 250 credits per pack per week or 25,000 credits per week on travel packs. It is highly unlikely that the Armoursmith would sell more, as this already nets him/her 25 mil credits a week, and he would cap in a month. As it stands, making travel packs are more a bother than a profitable business. Only good for converting small lots of leftover resources.
h) Then, we have the all the interesting but absolutely useless schems like the Nemoidian Bird Cage, Chance cubes, daggers, survival knives, cdef weapons, etc.
I'm not extremely interested in joining the debate as to whether harvester certification is the way to go. BUT insulting artisans by calling them a starting profession, saying that they have enough and should have no more is stupid when any player irrespective of whether he has invested time and points or not, can pull resource out of the ground and make credits with no effort other than to add maintenance and power.
I remember one player who asked me for assistance to identify minerals to mine, since his friend had equipped him with a fleet of mineral harvesters. I pointed him in the direction of swgcraft for data. His response was,"That's no good. They don't give me a waypoint". I think the Master Artisan is more deserving of respect than this idiot.
Message Edited by Defconn on 05-21-2004 02:44 PM
- Market driven economy. Supply shrinks, demand grows in comparison, prices increase.
- Prices will increase a *lot*. Certain rare materials on Naritus already go for 100-1000 cr per unit. WITH everyone able to mine. Make them all that rare and it will be HUGE.
- When supply drops 5%, prices increase 50% (insidea similar but"real" economy).
- When supply drops over 50% (as it will when you whack all "big" harvesters that aren't owned by artisans), prices increase over 5000%.
- Want to pay several million credits for a suit of composite? No. Nobodydoes. Nobody CAN.
Bugbait wrote:
I agree that it would cause a depression and hyper-inflation as you call it but I don't see it as a bad thing. I've already addressed this in another post or maybe a few by now so not going over it again. I suggest you brush up on your economic theory. At the end of the day you can't charge more than what people are willing to pay. You can stand there all day and tell someone why your armour is worth 2 million credits but if no one can pay 2 million it won't sell. What will happen is a differentiation in the market place as you've stated but I see this as a positive move. There will be those who cater for the elite or rich, the middle class (bulk of players), and the poor (new players). This is better than a system where the bulk of players can afford to shop with the best which is where the current market sits.
Sevardos wrote:
The "resource glut" argument doesn't pan out - sorry. It's too late in the game to change something like this. By abruptly choking supply, you will cause two successive and devasting events to the world (game) economy ... depression followed shortly by hyper-inflation.
Depression because the 'glut' you're so worried about will be sold off at fire sale prices and there will be massive hoarding by a small % of the player base. I don't mean just resources, I mean EVERYTHING because there would be a mass exodus of current crafters.
After the dust settles, prices will skyrocket to ridiculous levels. Two very distinct classes will emerge ... elite (can afford the ridiculous prices) and the new or poor class. Middle class (income players) are a very small % in a hyper-inflation economy. Once the economy is like this, its virtually impossible to fix. You can see that right now in the game - anytime there is a hint that supply is being crimped on something or deemed remotely rare, prices skyrocket.::::cough::::: Avian Meat ::::cough::::::
SOE most likely knows this will happen and won't (CAN'T) allow for itTO happen tothe game because it will be frustrating for new players joining - therefore, choking their potential subscription growth.
You need to see the big picture and not cut off your nose to spite your face. If any changes happen to certs, it has to be done GLOBALLY reflecting ALL professions and player classes. In fact, it may be that if certs were to be introduced, it shouldn't be just artisans but all crafting professions. Whatever the case, it's not a ARTISAN issue ... its a game economy issue and should be address GLOBALY (if its deemed necessary, which is unlikely).
Personally, my only issue is cross-server lot trades of which I believe do damage to the economy - not certs. This can resolved without introducting certs however.
Mass exodus of crafters? No, if anything I think it will encourage crafters. With the disparity in prices and quality not everyone will be able to afford the best quality so they will look for the best value instead. This opens the market for people to sell goods that are 80% as good for half the price or less and they will likely do very well. There are 2 basic ways to make a profit, markups or volume.
Ummm.... considering what I do for a living, my Economic theory is just fine thank you very much. You can try to insult my intelligence as much as you like, it's just a standard board-troll tactic to disguise the fact you don't have an intelligent response.
People will pay - just not everyone .... thats what hyper-inflation is. Can I personally afford (in RL) a 10,000 sq. ft house? Nope. Do 10,000 sq. ft houses sell? Yes. Hyper-inflation in a gaming economy takes that kind of situation and artificially amplifies it because it's not real money. Where else can you buy a house cheaper thana gun than in a gaming economy.
Hyper-inflation is NOT a good thing and suggesting that it is clearly demonstrates you're speaking out of your behind. Hyper-inflation is the #1 killer of MMPRPG gaming economies and its what Devs are always concerned about (deflation as well, but thats a whole new discussion).
Hyper-inflation morphs the gaming economy into 2 ecomonies - the elite economy, where a smaller % of the player base can afford all the new toys, latest greatest armour, etc selling amongst themselvesconstantly- and, for the lack of better word, a welfare economy.
Now, since you conveniently ignored the big picture angle, I'll say it again. It's too late for a disruptive and devasting change like this. If they were to do it, it should have been donewithin6 months of the games release. If they try to do it now it will hurt SOE where it hurts most... attracting new subscribers and growing the subscriber base. And with the expansion coming, that would be the least thing they would want to risk.
Sevardos wrote:
Now, since you conveniently ignored the big picture angle, I'll say it again. It's too late for a disruptive and devasting change like this. If they were to do it, it should have been donewithin6 months of the games release. If they try to do it now it will hurt SOE where it hurts most... attracting new subscribers and growing the subscriber base. And with the expansion coming, that would be the least thing they would want to risk.
I hope you do better in real life than you make out here. You're assuming the player base is static and wouldn't adapt to any changes in the game. You're assuming if the prerequisites for harvesters change that no one will adapt and simply accept the fact they can no longer harvest as they used to. That's a huge assumption. Whatdo you do in real life when the tax laws change? Anyone with half a brain reorganises their portfolio and investment strategies. This is what I believe would happen here. The nature of SWG allows for rapid and responsive changes in professions. Once again I draw attention to the defense changes. People and the economy do and will continue to adapt tochanges in game mechanics. What do you think will happen when the combat rebalance finally hits? If they get it even half right combat templates will change all over to adapt.
I didn't ignore the big picture I just don't assume the majority of players areidiots. Your projection onlyholds true if peopleare assumed to behave in afixed or static manner. I believe the players are smart enough to see past the "nerf" calls and formulatenew and equally effective strategies. Fear of taking unpopular action is just as big a game killer. Too late to fix it? The longer you allow a mistake to continue the harder it gets to clean up.
EDIT: Some typo's.
Message Edited by Bugbait on 05-22-2004 12:10 AM
Bugbait wrote:
Sevardos wrote:
Now, since you conveniently ignored the big picture angle, I'll say it again. It's too late for a disruptive and devasting change like this. If they were to do it, it should have been donewithin6 months of the games release. If they try to do it now it will hurt SOE where it hurts most... attracting new subscribers and growing the subscriber base. And with the expansion coming, that would be the least thing they would want to risk.
I hope you do better in real life than you make out here. You're assuming the player base is static and wouldn't adapt to any changes in the game. You're assuming if the prerequisites for harvesters change that no one will adapat and simply accept the fact they can no longer harvest as they used to. That's a huge assumption. Whatdo you do in real life when the tax laws change? Anyone with half a brain reorganises their portfolio and investment strategies. This is what I believe would happen here. The nature of SWG allows for rapid and responsive changes in professions. Once again I draw attention to the defense changes. People and the economy do and will continue to adapt tochanges in game mechanics. What do you think will happen when the combat rebalance finally hits? If they get it even half right combat tamplates will change all over to adapt.
I didn't ignore the big picture I just don't assume the majority of players areidiots. Your projection onlyholds true if peopleare assumed to behave in afixed or static manner. I believe the players are smart enough to see past the "nerf" calls and formalutenew and equally effective strategies. Fear of taking unpopular action is just as big a game killer. Too late to fix it? The longer you allow a mistake to continue the harder it gets to clean up.
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
I think more than all that, he's assuming that people who are paying to play a game don't want to have to scrounge for in-game money.
Introducing hyper-inflation will create a huge group of people who can't afford the basics.
Do you think the guy who really wants to play a rifleman or bounty hunter or jedi is really going to want to create an artisan just to survive financially in the game?
Or do you think he's just going to say "to hell with SW:G" and take his subscription money elsewhere?
Finding ways to make money is part of the gaming experience for most. Sure, there are those who would never leave Easy Street but I would argue most gamers appreciate thechallenge. Why do you think new contentis so popular? Why do people like the Corvette? Because it's new and challenging (well, probably other reasons too). For a lot of gamers being able to solo everything isn't all that fun.
Hyper-inflation applies to a minority. It is not applicable or sustainable at a mass scale. It's already present now where the ultra-rich minorityare almost guaranteed to purchase anything they really desire. I agree with Sevardos on that point. Yes, it would likely happen. However, the few do not dictate the game or subscriptions for that matter. At the end of the day people can and will only pay what they think something is worth. If all the top WS's and AS's on a server decided to collude and fix prices there would come a day when a new group would snag the "lower" end of the market by offering more value oriented weapons. This applies to all profession be they novice or elite. I've seen this exact behaviour of Valcyn and I doubt it's the only server or example.
You don't have to be a harvester to survive. Maybe if you're not very imaginative but I know many, wealthy to extremely rich players that don't harvest or rent lots. They're purely hunters. They find out what the rich want and get it for them. My real life friend who plays a bounter hunter has never useda harvester in hisSWG lifeor rented out lots. He's not extremely rich but he has more than enough to get by and very comfortably. He has top quality Composite armour, an arsenal of weapons, some Krayt. He hates harvestingbut loves hunting marks.
Fickle poeple will always be fickle. I know a few in real life. When the going gets tough in games and they don't get spoon fed they give up and quit. Very hard to please such people and it's frankly not worth trying. Quitters will always give up at the first hint of an obstacle.