Artisan Archive
Thread: I use 20 crates of Power ups a day and...
Bugbait wrote:
Srednii wrote:
The only arguments put forth so far in support of certing harvesters have been claims of some mythical resource glut, claims that too many items are being made so nobody can make any money on crafted goods, claims that large scale resource mining operations are making people uber rich, claims that somehow the game's economy is ruined, the crafting proffs are ruined, and the game lacks integrity. All because everyone can use harvesters.
And amazinglymost of the people who've actually mastered an elite crafting class have refuted those arguments.
some mythical resource glut
I didn't argue this. I don't think it's of relevance to the discusion either. This is part of the "barking up the wrong tree".
too many items are being made so nobody can make any money on crafted goods
Didn't argue this either. Once again, barking up the wrong tree.
large scale resource mining operations are making people uber rich
It's not about wealth. I mentioned wealth a few times because I don't think it hurts to spread it around but that's not a key point either. Personal fortunes have very little to do with the arguments being presented. Refer to barking up the wrong tree.
claims that somehow the game's economy is ruined
I did imply this. The economy is ruined but not due solely to harvesting. The glut of money is actually in the the pockets of elite crafters because their profits are so much higher than costs. There are many factors to this of which open harvesting is just one player.
the crafting proffs are ruined
Didn't even mention this. Not even relevant outside of all the crafters having a whinge.
and the game lacks integrity
This is a given but not relevant to get into detail here about it.
All because everyone can use harvesters.
You're generalising and thus missing the point. It's the freedom of harvesting that's the issue (ie. Everyone can use heavy harvesters) not harvesting itself. I suggest you reread the arguments presented because you've demonstrated you have little understanding of what the debate is really about.
And amazinglymost of the people who've actually mastered an elite crafting class have refuted those arguments.
No, they haven't refuted the arguments at all. They've screamed louder and bitched more but there's been limited real rebuttal. Refer to my "nerf" comments. Of course elite crafters are upset, it means they will likely have to pay more for resources and this affects their profit margin. They're looking after themselves. How hard was that to deduce?
You're not the only one arguing for harvester certs Bugbait, AudioOrgana and Sinist both seem to be taking the resouce glut approach to try to argue for this. Thos Sinist's reasons change every post as people counter his arguments. Well... he either changes his argument, or he resorts to calling us all poo poo heads.
You seem to want certs for the sole reason that you don't think people should be allowed to use harvesters without spending skill points.
I and many others dissagree. Certing harvesters would only serve to restrict the flow of resources, a lot of people purchase lots from combat players on which to place their own harvesters to fullfill their own resource needs. Large resource sellers all borrow lots in order to mine enough to have a decent resource shop. A lot of combattypes buy waypoints and place harvesters for themto sell resources from.It would funnel down all the current resource for sale production to a handfull of people who would charge out the ass for their resources.
We feel that having anyone able to mine resources is a more equitable then having a mere handfull controlling the market. Everyone can run missions for money, mining for resources for money shouldn't be limited to a small number of people.
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
I could go through 20 crates of melee powerups a hell of a lot more quickly than5.5 hours. When I was grinding up TKA, I ate 10-12 crates in a buff cycle, which at the time was measured in Entertainer's 2-hour buffs. If I recall correctly, at least 15 minutes of that buff cycle was spent traveling, too.
But tell me, why do you sink to the level of insult when you were actually able to provide reasonable logic to refute the poster you replied to? That sort of thing is normally only done when one expends his ability to reason yet still doesn't want to give up on the argument.
Insults aside, his maths was correct, the speed cap for attacks is one per second and each attack uses one use of a hundred use powerup that means just over 5 and a half hours of continuous fighting to use 20 crates of ten power-ups.
How did you go through 10,000 attacks worth of power-ups in less than 10,000 seconds of hitting things?
I'd like to know how power-ups change time
Srednii wrote:
You seem to want certs for the sole reason that you don't think people should be allowed to use harvesters without spending skill points.
I and many others dissagree. Certing harvesters would only serve to restrict the flow of resources, a lot of people purchase lots from combat players on which to place their own harvesters to fullfill their own resource needs. Large resource sellers all borrow lots in order to mine enough to have a decent resource shop. A lot of combattypes buy waypoints and place harvesters for themto sell resources from.It would funnel down all the current resource for sale production to a handfull of people who would charge out the ass for their resources.
We feel that having anyone able to mine resources is a more equitable then having a mere handfull controlling the market. Everyone can run missions for money, mining for resources for money shouldn't be limited to a small number of people.
You're assuming people wouldn't adapt. How many defence stackers changed their templates when the cap was introduced at 125? I'm guessing all of them. Same thing here. You and others are assuming that templates wouldn't change to adapt to any certification changes. Yes, large resource sellers borrow lots but so what? They do that to take advantage of the current system. Nothing wrong with that since it's perfectly within the current rules of the game. However that by itself is not enough reason to justify not changing the system in an attempt to better balance it.
It would be great if I didn't need Novice Medic in my combat template to use Stim B's but I live with it because it's fair. In fact I think med use for Stim B's should be increased but that's an argument for another thread.
Everyone can run missions for money? Sure, a pure crafter can run survey missions or other equally lameactivities but they don't paynearly as well as combat missions on adventure planets. What you're arguing for is biased towards combat professions. A combat profession can mine just as effectively as a crafter as well as hunt? Wow, great for them. A crafter can't hunt nearly as well as a combat profession. Ifa combat type can mine as well as a crafter then why can't crafters fight as well as combat professions? You do understand the menain of "fair" don't you?
Seeing a lot of "best of both worlds" syndrome in the rebuttals.
lisasdarren wrote:
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
I could go through 20 crates of melee powerups a hell of a lot more quickly than5.5 hours. When I was grinding up TKA, I ate 10-12 crates in a buff cycle, which at the time was measured in Entertainer's 2-hour buffs. If I recall correctly, at least 15 minutes of that buff cycle was spent traveling, too.
But tell me, why do you sink to the level of insult when you were actually able to provide reasonable logic to refute the poster you replied to? That sort of thing is normally only done when one expends his ability to reason yet still doesn't want to give up on the argument.
Insults aside, his maths was correct, the speed cap for attacks is one per second and each attack uses one use of a hundred use powerup that means just over 5 and a half hours of continuous fighting to use 20 crates of ten power-ups.
How did you go through 10,000 attacks worth of power-ups in less than 10,000 seconds of hitting things?
I'd like to know how power-ups change time
AudioOrgana wrote:
Just as the way the introduction of the Hologrinding economy totally ravaged the economy, so is it's departure will as well. However, when all is said and done, the initial problem (which was partially compensated for by Hologrinding) remains of too many resources that are too easy to get...
What I fear more than a glut of resources is a glut of players who put no value on their time. When I set a price on a piece of armor, it honestly has nothing to do with my resource cost. It has everything to do with how much time went into aquiring those resources, repeatedly destroying schematics that were not the absolute best I could produce, tending factories for days, lining up a slicer to cover hundred of pieces at once, and even the insane amount of time it takes to stock a vendor with hundreds of pieces of sliced armor.
It's really not about money for me any more. My bank account is well into eight digits and at the rate I sell it could be into nine digits in a month or so. It's really about my customers making a statement about their perception of the value of my time when they buya piece of armor. I am, and have been, a combat character. I know what rate they bring in money. When someone buys something from me, I don't see the credits, I see someone saying, "here, I think this item is worth X amount of my time running missions."
I know not every crafter feels this way. I do enjoy the profession for what it is, but there are sometimes when it feels like a second job. Normally it's when I want to take a break, but don't want to disappoint my customers when they find slim pickings on the vendor. I see more and more crafters coming into professions who but little to no value on their own time, and as they come in it devalues others' percerption of the worth of my own time.
That's what will drive me out of crafting. Not resource costs, not nerfs, not real competition. Just players who don't see that time is the only true commodity in this game, and place no value on it.
Bugbait wrote:
Everyone can run missions for money? Sure, a pure crafter can run survey missions or other equally lameactivities but they don't paynearly as well as combat missions on adventure planets.
DirthNader wrote:
AudioOrgana wrote:
Just as the way the introduction of the Hologrinding economy totally ravaged the economy, so is it's departure will as well. However, when all is said and done, the initial problem (which was partially compensated for by Hologrinding) remains of too many resources that are too easy to get...
What I fear more than a glut of resources is a glut of players who put no value on their time. When I set a price on a piece of armor, it honestly has nothing to do with my resource cost. It has everything to do with how much time went into aquiring those resources, repeatedly destroying schematics that were not the absolute best I could produce, tending factories for days, lining up a slicer to cover hundred of pieces at once, and even the insane amount of time it takes to stock a vendor with hundreds of pieces of sliced armor.
It's really not about money for me any more. My bank account is well into eight digits and at the rate I sell it could be into nine digits in a month or so. It's really about my customers making a statement about their perception of the value of my time when they buya piece of armor. I am, and have been, a combat character. I know what rate they bring in money. When someone buys something from me, I don't see the credits, I see someone saying, "here, I think this item is worth X amount of my time running missions."
I know not every crafter feels this way. I do enjoy the profession for what it is, but there are sometimes when it feels like a second job. Normally it's when I want to take a break, but don't want to disappoint my customers when they find slim pickings on the vendor. I see more and more crafters coming into professions who but little to no value on their own time, and as they come in it devalues others' percerption of the worth of my own time.
That's what will drive me out of crafting. Not resource costs, not nerfs, not real competition. Just players who don't see that time is the only true commodity in this game, and place no value on it.
Exactly, which is why this is an essential issue.
You hit the nail right on the head.
However, if the resource glut continutes the way it will, and the forced removal of Hologrinding in Publish 10 happens, all markets are going to see a the impact and you won't be able to charge for that time nearly as well. Or, more accurately, you can - you just won't sell nearly as much.
This is what the combat people want - many of them resent the relationship they are forced to have with crafters. They want the economy to be overrun and prices fall. Crafters, for the most part, don't - at least those who are playing this game as largely a business simulation.
I wonder how much noise combat players would make if suddenly all weapons lost certification, and a Master Artisancan use the same exact tools and weapons in the game as a Master Marksman or Brawler.
Scaling certifications in the survey tree is no different than a combat profession getting more weapon certs as they progress.
Another way of looking into it would be putting certs ADDITIONALLY in elite artisan professions.
From Holo's post about the SWG economy, I am assuming they are serious about draining some of the cash out of the game. If this is true, they obviously will have to go to one of the two roots of the problem - and the liquid credits we are pumping into the game 23 hours a day is just as signifigant as the mission terminals. In fact, the harvesting needs to be looked at even more closely because it's not as cut and dry - the Devs can bring up tons of metrics regarding misson terminal earnings and adjust them that way, but resource don't have such a fixed method of distribution once out of the ground so their impact is harder to measure.
AO
AudioOrgana: You seem to be one of the cert supporters who argues for it because of a resource glut. But are you an elite crafter? Have you experienced this glut as one?
As an armorsmith the grind materials that everyone seems to be mining by the ton don't effect me. They don't impinge on my play, they don't effect the prices I pay for resources, they don't enable me to churn out endless armor. They don't enable me to produce endless cheap armor.
When I pay 10-20 cpu for resources that are less then a month old, and 50-100 cpu for resources that havn't been in shift for several months, well I don't see a glut.
Those are the resources that effect me as an Elite crafter. The grind materials are immaterial. And I imagine once the hologrinding goes away all the grind material miners will go away as well. (and if they don't does it matter? The grind market doesn't effect me as an armorsmith anyways)
And this is why I don't think there's a resource glut. Because there isn't one for armorsmiths. Are weaponsmiths different? Chefs? Droid Engineers? Architects?
Tailors use grind materials, so I suppose the glut exists for them. But their resources needs are so small that they must be a miniscule portion of the grind market.
I am going to say that when the Hologrinding goes away so will the fly-by-night Miners.
From my experience you have two types of miners:
- Miners who know very little about crafting and pretty much throw their harvies down on anything that happens to have a stat above 900 or even on things that don't have stats that good
- Miners who make it their business to know what Master Crafters need and want and also know the spawn history of their server so they can tell in a reasonable amount of time if a spawn is good, great or best ever
I think what you will see is that the first class (the 'uneducated' miner) will go away in time because they will see that there is no demand anymore for their 'grind quality' resources and they won't want to put the time in to learn what a specific crafting profession needs to make high-end products.
The second type of Miner (the 'educated' miner) will still be doing business as usual because thru their expertise they probably already have a good relationship with one or many crafters and know exactly what to supply them with and in what quantities things will be needed. The only detrimental effect the disappearance of 'grind' resources will have on these miners is that currently they probably toss their harvesters down on that stuff whenever there isn't something worthy of mining for their elite crafter clientele.
So that is how I see it playing out.... the ones who don't want to work at harvesting will get tired of it and the ones willing to put the effort in to supply the best the server has to offer will stick around and continue doing what they are doing. It might just take a month or two to shake out the lazy miners.
Message Edited by The_Strider_Family on 05-20-2004 07:47 PM
Srednii wrote:
AudioOrgana: You seem to be one of the cert supporters who argues for it because of a resource glut. But are you an elite crafter? Have you experienced this glut as one?
As an armorsmith the grind materials that everyone seems to be mining by the ton don't effect me. They don't impinge on my play, they don't effect the prices I pay for resources, they don't enable me to churn out endless armor. They don't enable me to produce endless cheap armor.
When I pay 10-20 cpu for resources that are less then a month old, and 50-100 cpu for resources that havn't been in shift for several months, well I don't see a glut.
Those are the resources that effect me as an Elite crafter. The grind materials are immaterial. And I imagine once the hologrinding goes away all the grind material miners will go away as well. (and if they don't does it matter? The grind market doesn't effect me as an armorsmith anyways)
And this is why I don't think there's a resource glut. Because there isn't one for armorsmiths. Are weaponsmiths different? Chefs? Droid Engineers? Architects?
Tailors use grind materials, so I suppose the glut exists for them. But their resources needs are so small that they must be a miniscule portion of the grind market.
No matter how much you stockpile you will eventually run out of the best materials and that's how it's meant to be. If they wanted everyone to always make the best quality ofgoods there wouldn't be resource shifts. Or the resource quality wouldn't be random but instead slowly increase in quality over time. This is not the case. I hope you can agree on that logic. The problem is that every crafter thinks they should be able to make the best items all the time. This is what pushes the prices on out of shift and rarer materials up. Do you pay 10cpu+ for materials that are in shift? I sure hope not.
Part of the current problem is the mindset of the elite crafters that their products should always be improving.The point of random quality, quantity, and types of shifts is that the quality of products will and shouldfluctuate over time. Knowing this, the best of the best consumables should carry a premium. At the moment, I'm guessing they don't. Crafters always want to use the best materials they can for mark ups and reputation. I would argue this is not how the economy is meant to behave. The point of shifts is so the quality of crafted goods will fluctate over time adding another dimension to the game. The abundance of resources has allowed elite crafters to accept nothing less than the best for too long.