Artisan Archive
Thread: Mining without a license renting out lots and harvestors to someone that wants them
Sinist wrote:
huh? no you mean you WANT o make them in factories not you HAVE to.
Your confusing your entitlement to make profit before you master the profession.
lol, I know most people grind to master, but not everyone does. When I was a tailor I opened my clothing shop before I hit master. I sold clothes I needed factories for, before I hit master. I used my sales during this time to fund myself as I slowly gained master. And I needed my factory to make most of these clothes.And according to the devs they want it that way, they want people to make a profit without having to be master.
I've also heard people who made money as armorsmiths before they hit master. 4/0/0/4 armorsmiths making ubese armor, not top flight stuff, but fairly cheap, with fair resists. People who used this as an income source so they didn't have to grind hardcore all the way to master to actually make money. People who couldn't have done this without a factory. And luckily the devs want it this way, they want us to be able to make money before we hit master.
Sinist wrote:
UniformMarshal wrote:
Sinist Wrote:
A proposal I brought up in a few other threads:
Heavy Harvesters = Master Artisan Certification. Problem : Artisan is a begining profession. NOT an elite one.
Your point?
I personally don't see the harm in this..this is one type of harvestor, and other types are available.
Medium Harvesters = Master of an Elite crafting profession. Would that include Scout and smuggler and musicians? That omni box didnt just one day appear. You say master, what about Novices?
Armorsmith, weaponsmith, Droid engineer, architect, tailer, chef, merchant. novices without master artisan would get personal harvesters and that includes novice scout, novice medic and novice smugglers.
Personal Harvesters = Novice Artisan, Novice Scout, Novice Medic, Novice Smuggler. What about entertainers? They make instruments.
Here is the 1 oppurtunity for a resource market. And I mean the 1. IF its inclined add novice entertainer to the list of personal harvesters but its not really needed. They should be making their money doing entertainer stuff like putting ons hows or dancing or playing music. Which should give them enough money to buy the resources they need to make their instrument.
Firstly, by virtue of the fact that I am a Bounty Hunter, I am also a Master Scout. What the heck do I need a harvester for? I find a critter and kill it, then harvest it myself. I have no survey skills;if I want to know what the stats on an animals harvest are,I kill up to 3 of that animal and take one hide, one meat, and one bone harvest. After a while the animal stops yeilding the same type of resource, so I scour the planets to find another animal with a great harvest stat. I would have to kill a LOT of critters to find what an artisan finds with a droid. I am not complaining at all - I like killin stuff. But there is nothing I need a harvestor for at all. If some other scout knows something that a scout can use a harvestor for that others cannot, please tell me.
I also cant figure out what I need a factory for...I cant use anything but my general crafting tool to make traps and camps - if soeone wants to tell me how to mass produce those badboys, that would be sweet, but I think holo-grinder would have already posted it somewhere.
There are Pistoleers, Carbineers, Commando's, Rifleman, Pikeman, Fencers, Swordsman, TKA, Rangers and Bounty Hunters that have no need for 10 lots, really. You artisan types do need them. There is nothing that stops a non-artisan from taking up artisan - I can't argue that point. What I can argue is that if I don't have any fun crafting, mining or using my lots, but soeone else does - why can't we help each other out. I buy weapons and armor constantly...why can't I make money off of someone making even more money using my lots. I've mentioned more than once in this thread (and no-one has commented on it) that perhaps building a lot-lease system into the game to allow a non-artisan to lend use of the unwanted land for a price and a defined length of time would solve the issue of someone placing an item he shouldn't even know how to use without the skill in it (like a BH placing a Harvestor)
Factories = Certificated in their respected professions at the master level. Many items need factory parts BEFORE master. Are you even a crafter?
Like?
10 lots per account. *this is up in the air but may be a necessary evil to balance the game*. Theres only 1 character per server so people play on different servers to experience different professions.
Right but there is also a problem where people join other server not to experience other professions but to put down harvesters for other people and never really touch that character. This is why I said it was a necessary evil to limit lots to account not character.
This is a prime example of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I think this comes down to the fact that you really don't want to go out for yourself and find somone willing to rent you his lots so you can compete. Again, I don't have any issue with a BH not being able to place a harvestor, but in a player based economy, being able to market and sell lots based on how valuable they might be to someone is fair game. If the going rate to rent out a lot is 1 cpu, then each artisan would have to decide how greedy they want to be. They can be 100% greedy and not share any of their money with anyone. They can be partially greedy and pay someone X cpu and resell for 5x for the additional inventory.
If someone puts a down a harvestor for another player on another server, this still ties into making somethng previously unused turn into someting useful for another. If I only want to PLAY one character, but someone would be helped by my creating a character (that I am paying for just like everyone else) so that someone can use lots they werent givien in the game, what stops you from doing the same thing? What stops everyone from doing it? I get absolutely NO BEBEFIT WHATSOEVER for doing this but someone else does - isnt that called something like the christmas spirit or the spirit of giving.
What about the guy who likes to be Miner soooooo much that he wants to make a character on EVERY server to play a miner. This guy wants to be known on every server and have stores in apporximately the same place on every planet. This guy loves the resource trade. If we go with your plan, you are limiting this guys FUN. This is what he wants to do, and you want to deprive him of it. If this guy already HAS done this (and i bet there are some who have or are close) which lots are taken away...how does a Dev reconcile that. This issue alone will prevent a 10 lot per account limit..it creates more problems than it solves, and it makes more people angry and willing to quit then the 'problem' as it is now.
And im willing to quit the game if it isnt address by the developers very soon. The question was asked to the developers in our Artisan question every week on May 5th but we have not received an answer quite yet. The question also seems to be in favor to be asked specifically on May 19th. By that time if my demands arent met im leaving because of conflict with the community and lack of integrity in the game. A little unbalance here and there I cant really be too hard on people for but this doesnt constitute that for me.
Also if the community doesnt agree with it then well this being a MMORPG I'm not going to have fun in a game that has no integrity and a community that is so off base on ideally the kind of game I want to spend money and time on that I can easily find my avenue of entertainment elsewhere.
I'm not going to call you uneducated, but I wil call you childish. How many of these points have to be complied with to stop you from quiting? All or nothing? How many others are willing to quit becasue of this? If you and some others quit, but not all others, then aren't you profiting them even more by removing one or more potential competitors? Draconian responses are not the way, my friend..there are more productive ways. In terms of integity of the economy, a real-estate market is probably appropriate, so unused lots are avaialable to those that are qualified to use them.
It already sounds to me like you are standing on the edge and crying out for someone to stop you from jumping. There are solutions for solving abuse and comprimising that keep to the spirit of the game. I imagine you have your eye on another game you want to switch to. If it is a NEW game, then you are only jumping from the frying pan into the fire. If it's an existing game, well you will have to live with whatever system they have there, and your complaints will fall on deaf ears there.
Please quit. Your uneducated and not very well thought out suggestions are going to screw this profession more than the Devs.
Ill prove otherwise.
Well some scout traps and camps require metals so I added it into the proposal by popular demand.
What would it take me not to quit? Some form of restriction on cross lotting and harvester certifications.
Truly I dont need to hire people to rent slots for me. I have enough computer resources in my home to run multiple accounts at once and I can afford 50$ a month. Im not arguiing the point of that I cant compete or my buisness is bad. Im arguiing the game mechanics.
I joined a awesome player city today and a cool guild and I dont want to give it all up but I will if it isnt fixed SOON. Like we may or may not get an answer from our may 5th question but im pretty sure it will be asked about specifically on may 19th. We are winnign the vote anyways as of right now. So if nothing is heard by may 19th then im quitting. Even if the question wasnt asked because that is conflict with the community anyways.
Sincerely I hope I dont have to because I like many more things about the game. But I have principals and ideals that I must follow. I am a beta tester and I test out alot of games and I even have a promising new one lined up that many of you guaranteed have never heard of that will have a balanced player driven combat as well as PvP and player run homes etc. that I could enjoy just as much, although Iw ould prefer playing SWG just for the larger community. And its kind of irking with a community this large that the problems arent widely seen and argued more. *shrug* not everyone is a hardcore computer gamer like myself, so I see things in different light.
*sighs* well someone ninja 1 stared my post. I wonder if they even bothered to read it through? They obviously didn't even bother to reply since it looks like they're scanning through every post briefly and 1 staring anything they don't agree with. How about actually reading a post through thoroughly and if you don't agree with it, don't 1 star it, have the curtesey enough to write a reply explaining what you agree or disagree with it.
I was just posting two possible ideas to deal with the problem, assuming that a problem does exist, whcih one does in my eyes. If everyone just poststheir ideas and then scan over everyone else's post and 1 star the ones that they don't agree with, we're not going to get anywhere. Some constructive counter arguement will allow people to refine their ideas as to other's concerns with said ideas. If you have a civil discussion and actually listen to the other side's arguements, you can work together to hopefully end up with a solution that benefits, or at least satisfies, all parties in the end.
Anyways back to the actual issue.I just wanted to explain the reasoning of my idea's a little further...
Ya'll still haven't stated why lot leasing is wrong.
I have stated NUMEROUSLY that I have nothing agianst there being harvestor certs. Based on game mechanics, anyone can use my beloved LLC, but without the cert it is practically worthless. It takes a certain level of familiarity and skill and knowledge to know how to properly use a LLC. I feel that a Harvestor falls into the SAME CATEGORY. I might be able to use a personal harvestor the same way anyone can use a knife or a CDEF whatever...the name 'personal' implaies it is made for lots of non-skilled users, but I would say that even that should be at a penalty without novice artisan. Anything beyond the personal harvestor SHOULD require a cert and its use without one should be at so low a rate that the personal looks much better.
With that being said, none of you have stated why LOTS should not be a traded good. I have 10 lots that are worthless to me, but worth a great deal to someone with the proper cert.
When I harvest meat from a whisperbird on Yavin, it has no greater value to me than meat from a womp rat - I have not noticed the making of traps or camps being horribly affected by types and qualities of the resources I use to make them with; in fact I have not noticed a difference at all. To someone else (on my server Master Doctors), that whisperbird meat might be worth 105 cpu because it makes their buffs amazingly better, and lets them charge 20k per buff set instead of 10k (exactly what is happening in Intrepid).
I have 10 lots that are absolutly worthless to me, since I do not receive any apppreciable benefit as a combat profession for having a house. To a mid level Armorsmith, having 1 more lot to place a factory on may be worth a lot of money to that armorsmith, and gives that armorsmith a competitive edge over someone who is already Master and making stuff he/she can't.
Why can't there be a system implemented that allows players to 'lease' their lots for a period of time to another player. Maybe the lease cost is rolled intot he maintence cost of whatever is placed on it, and the leasor gets paid when the leasee pays the maintence for the whatever (harvestor, factory). Maybe the leasor has an option to 'evict' a leasee if maintenence isn't paid for x number of days (and that could be something in the "Lease Lot" screen thta is agreed upon beforehand).
This idea protects the interests of both paties. The skilled artisans retian the ability to use highly technical devices such as harvestor in the same way that a BH retains the right to use a Scatter Pistol. It also allows the VALUE of a lot of land to be a real thing that can be traded and dealed with.
Someone please explain to me, in a non-insulting and logical method, why this is not a worthy comprimise. If it needs tweaking to become a workable comprimise, then tweek away.
Sinist wrote:huh? no you mean you WANT o make them in factories not you HAVE to.
Your confusing your entitlement to make profit before you master the profession.
When the schematic of an Adv R3 does say 2 identical Advanced Droid Brain that does mean they must be done in a Factory.
When the schematic of an Adv Droid Brain does say that you need 4 identical Electronic GP modules, that means they must be done in a Factory.
That is not aquestion to have it more easily, that is a question of not manually making 5000 identical component to find 4 with the same ID.
As For all this Harvester cert suff, I am all against it.
I already don't have enough time, I don't want to spend it on looking for resources all day long because I'm one of the chosen for the task.
Hunting resources is not a big part of my fun.
Being uber rich isn't either, otherwise I wouldn't be a DE.
Thanks, but no thanks.
Tanks wrote:
Actually, you can set it up fairly easily yourself. Place a factory for a crafter and have him bank tip you every so often. As far as evicting, well you have that option via game mechanics. Only the person placing an installation can re-deed it. So if someone quits the game, doesn't pay you etc., well just redeed it and sell it in the open market
.
Well, this is actually what I'm doing now, except its a harvestor. The complaint the Artisans here are making is that I should not be ABLE to place a factory or harvestor at all, the same way they shouldn't be able to use a LLC.
The risk is on the other person that is trusting you with the deed.
BTW, you can make factory runs of traps and camps. I always keep a crate of camps just in case for convinience. Having crates of glow juice traps, one can level fairly fast the trapping line of scout or ranger as they stack.
Oh....that's just GREAT!!!! I lova ya like a brother, o respectable BH Corespondant...but why could you not have prophetically known to tell me this BEFORE I spent all those hours in camps making my traps and camps for the next fight.
Gavvot wrote:
Sinist wrote:
huh? no you mean you WANT o make them in factories not you HAVE to.
Your confusing your entitlement to make profit before you master the profession.
When the schematic of an Adv R3 does say 2 identical Advanced Droid Brain that does mean they must be done in a Factory.
When the schematic of an Adv Droid Brain does say that you need 4 identical Electronic GP modules, that means they must be done in a Factory.
That is not aquestion to have it more easily, that is a question of not manually making 5000 identical component to find 4 with the same ID.
As For all this Harvester cert suff, I am all against it.
I already don't have enough time, I don't want to spend it on looking for resources all day long because I'm one of the chosen for the task.
Hunting resources is not a big part of my fun.
Being uber rich isn't either, otherwise I wouldn't be a DE.
Thanks, but no thanks.
The only people who need resources anyways are the ones who can harvest them under my proposal. So how is it your duty to put down harvesters if you dont want to? If your a crafter you need to. If youd ont then your not going to be able to craft anything. But yeah thats horrible huh. *roll eyes*
I honestly have never made anything that required two identical components.I dont know if you can make them by hand because asan Artisan there are things we make which require 2 of the same thing, but I dont know if it has a "identical"in front of it, and I can make those by hand np.
And well there is even an answer. Yourout of luck until you have a master build you the identical components. And well there are ways to grind master DE without building any of those droids. And well as a crafter your job is getting the resources to build your product. If you wanted to be a DE you should have realized that resources shouldnt grow on trees. Go play a single player game where you can type "givemeresource" and you are granted unlimited. This is a multiplayer competitive game. It is supposed to be balanced and not pathetically easy. Right now its easy and unbalanced. Harvester certifications + combat rebalance = balanced and competitive game.
the harvester cert doenst sound to bad actually but one thing has to change in my oppinion it would be
Heavy Harvesters : Master Elite crafting proffesions being All advanced artisan proffesions, including merchant, Doctors, Combat medics, Smugglers, bio engineers,rangers
Medium Harvesters : Novice elite crafting proffesions and master artisan
Personal Harvesters : anyone elsewho wants to
Factories : All profs who can craft something.
I cant see how its justifiable to suggest that a proffesion you spend 77 skill points on should have such a benefit before other profs who spend upto 52 points more than you.
I can also agree that people with 40, 50 , 60 lots canbe a problem simple let each account only administer 20 installations. and if someone wants to spend an extra 15 or 30 or 45bucks a month to have more lots, well you have plenty of people having doc alts set up as buff bots and crafting alts for equipment, then you would have to limit it to 1 account pr person and notlet a person sign up for a second account .
Now just a few comments onwhatever hisname was i cant remembers setup with only master artisans using heavy sure go a head mediums can be certed a novice elitecrafting profs and by that i meanALL profs who craft something, rangers, docs, smugglers , entertainers, artisans, advanced artisan profs. if the lower level smugglers for instance who go to a master having mined 90k copper or alu wiht they're last credits asking for a molecular clamp schematic werent alowed to mine that with mediums or heavy's they would have to buy the resources at im guessing 15cpu since there will be a shortage. Also everyone must be alowed to use factories.
I was actually going to respond with reasons why I disagree, but...naw...forget it. I'm not even going to try to reason with someone like this.
GrafvonSoden wrote:
Sorry to be so blunt, but then please quit.
Sorry to be so blunt, but why dont you quit hackstertheblack ?
We have the right to our opinion as much as you do.
Limiting harvesters in this fashion will drive resource prices up to the point of dozens of credits per unit during spawns (up from a present 1-3 on my galaxy). When miners are charging 50 credits per unit for a resource, weaponsmiths will be charging 500. Anyone here want to pay over 400k for a reasonably good T21?
Are you really stupid enough to think this will ruin the economy ? I serioully doubt you are thinking of the economy when you price your weapons. And miners/surveyors will have supply and demand as well as competition to keep thier prices in check.
I started a mining business the first week of release. Without using cross-server lottrades and only renting friends' lots for certain uber spawns, I was able to amass quite a bit of wealth from retail to date. There is no "unbalance" except *maybe* cross-server trades. But playing multiple characters on different servers is a *feature* of the game - people might legitimately want to play different types of characters on different servers without having to buy a new account, and you shouldn't hinder their ability to do so.
Yada yada yada...ho hum....Yes , you are part of the problem. So it's clear to see why you dont want this change.
If you're smart you can navigate this economy without resorting to destroying it to try to be competitive. If you're stupid, you're not going to excel in this or any other economicenvironment. Maybe you should consider a combat or entertainter profession...
You can **edit**, moan and cast dispersions all you want, but until this issue is addressed, I'M going to complain. If you dont like it, dont come to these forums. There are alot of us that feel this isnt right. And your narrow mindedness isnt going to change that.
/flame on
Message Edited by GrafvonSoden on 05-18-2004 09:55 AM
Why can't there be a system implemented that allows players to 'lease' their lots for a period of time to another player. Maybe the lease cost is rolled intot he maintence cost of whatever is placed on it, and the leasor gets paid when the leasee pays the maintence for the whatever (harvestor, factory). Maybe the leasor has an option to 'evict' a leasee if maintenence isn't paid for x number of days (and that could be something in the "Lease Lot" screen thta is agreed upon beforehand).
Actually, you can set it up fairly easily yourself. Place a factory for a crafter and have him bank tip you every so often. As far as evicting, well you have that option via game mechanics. Only the person placing an installation can re-deed it. So if someone quits the game, doesn't pay you etc., well just redeed it and sell it in the open market .
The risk is on the other person that is trusting you with the deed.
BTW, you can make factory runs of traps and camps. I always keep a crate of camps just in case for convinience. Having crates of glow juice traps, one can level fairly fast the trapping line of scout or ranger as they stack.