Artisan Archive
Thread: Harv certs explained...the yes side
Ropik wrote:
MarcoRenaldi wrote:
You said prices wont jump? HAHAHA that is hilarious. What happens when we have the same amount of crafters and a severely reduced amoutn of harvestors? Demand goes up as supply goes down. Meaning prices skyrocket. I honestly dont believe you realize how bad the economy is at the moment, and that a move of this scale will cause the market to crash. Dont be surprised by small houses costing 50k.
Actually, I said prices WILL go up. It's just 2 post above yours.
I am sorry I mis-stated that I meant to say soemthign to the effect of"You say prices wont go to astronomical porportions". That is bull**** with a good 60+% of harvesters being unusable prices will jump 2-4x normal amount.
What is it with you not wanting to compete with non crafters. What is wrong with competition? Hell I started out selling power off of my 3 wind gens in a power saturated market, but since I undersold and out smarted my competition I owned the largest power company on chilastra and drove many of those over priced companies out of business. When I retired I had over 100 ion gens running with15 or so employees. I offered a much needed service at a more than fair price. What is wrong with this? Cause it keeps you from hiking prices?
hoenix
DeathStryyker wrote:
there is no possible way for the Master artisans on server to supply all the crafters with the specific reasources need with only 8 slots its just not possible this whole idea is just plain stupid, seriously......... ppl shouldnt be forced to go Master a profession this will not help the community of players in each server it only really helps "Novice" Artisan profession become more money makers then the "Elite" Professions resources would be high on demand and so will prices and your only joking yourself if you think otherwise that it wouldnt raise prices on resources and items......
I'm not sure where I stand about the certs yet.
However, I would like to see some harvesting bonus at different levels of Surveying for any harvestor on one of my personal lots.
Ropik wrote:
Most of these incoherant rants could be eliminated if everyone was on the same page.
Topic: Certifications for Harvesters.
Point 1: Noone that isfor this(me for example) is saying that MA's and ONLY MA's are allowed to use them. That's ludicrous.
The proposal: All can use personals, Crafters can usethe bigguns. If you craft anything. Docs, Smugs, DE's, Chefs, whatever.
So if you have novice artisan, entertainer(instruments), scout(camps/traps) or medic or smuggler?? so the only people this would affect is noob brawlers and marksmen?? Why bother?
......
Point 3: The price of goods and resources climbing.
The state of the economy: Yes. Prices will undoubtedlyrise across ALL crafting professions. To astronomical levels? Not likely. There are billions of stockpiled junk resources on every server. Holo grinding is ending if not already over for most. That demand will be GONE very soon. Prices will level out.
(asuming you are correct here ) All except harvesters, the life blood of architects.
There are a ton of different suggestions and ideas about what to do with different aspects of this proposal.I say, crumle up the proposal, light it on fire and throw it away. This is NOT merely an Artisan issue. This is not even a Crafters issue. This would affect every profession in SWG. This is a global issue.
A global issue is right. It screws everyone and helps noone.
This ultimatley ends up being a problem with non crafters and some crafters. The non crafters because they want access to easy dollars with no skill investment. The "some" crafters because of their reasons I don't understand.
Non-crafters that don't just have farms up, need someone to point them towards a concentration(oh, wait that's what artisans do). "Some"? Sounds like almost all crafters.
I have a TKM/Swordsman and a Master Wep Smith/Master Arti on the same server. I wouldsurrender my harvs on the noncrafter if need be.
So you SHOULD see the need for more than just the crafter to be harvesting, otherwise you wouldn't have a second char harving.
Hope with this thread we can get away from the crap "MA's only are you crazy? thats a crock!!! What a load" because frankly that is getting annoying.
Perhaps this will find it's way to a Global or game issue board. I don't know. Perhaps it will just filter away with the rest of the garbage on here...
Obviously, this issue is global, but most important to the crafters. Here is the proper place to discuss it. If you went to the concept boards without first testing it here, you would be an idiot.
You are the first person wanting this I haven't wanted to hit with a brick. Thank you for not being a flaming jackass.
Oh and who are you? Even your server would be good to know.
Ropik wrote:
Most of these incoherant rants could be eliminated if everyone was on the same page.
Topic: Certifications for Harvesters.
Point 1: Noone that isfor this(me for example) is saying that MA's and ONLY MA's are allowed to use them. That's ludicrous.
The proposal: All can use personals, Crafters can usethe bigguns. If you craft anything. Docs, Smugs, DE's, Chefs, whatever.
This outta stop about half of the ignorant "MA's only for certs sucks" posts.
First off, personal harvestors are practially useless compared to mediums and heavies. If harvestor certs go through, most non-artisans simply won't bother using personal harvestors.
Secondly, and more importantly, saying that non-artisans can still use personal harvestors compeltely undermines the logic for harvestor certification in the first place. If a non-artisan can't use a medium or heavy harvestor, then why should he/she be any more able to use a personal harvestor? A harvestor is a harvestor. Their basic function is the same, they only differ in size. Logically, if non-artisans can't use mediums or heavies, then they shouldn't be able to use personals either.
Point 2: The "valid argument" that those opposed keep questioning and wondering where it is
The argument: Why do YOU deserve the right as a non crafter of any type( remember to READ point one before you doctors and such chime again) to run a machine designed to collect resources? As a non crafter you have absolutly NO business with resources. It is not intrinsic to your profession in SWG thus you have NO business with them. Non crafters want them to sell or give to your alts/guildies. Period.
Again, see my response to point one. You are saying that non-crafters have no business running harvestors. Oh, but you can run personal harvestors, that's okay. Say what? If non-crafters can run a personal harvestor then there's no reason why they can't run a medium or heavy harvestor.
Point 3: The price of goods and resources climbing.
The state of the economy: Yes. Prices will undoubtedlyrise across ALL crafting professions. To astronomical levels? Not likely. There are billions of stockpiled junk resources on every server. Holo grinding is ending if not already over for most. That demand will be GONE very soon. Prices will level out.
So how is rising prices a good thing for anyone? You seem to think that rising prices for artisan goods will be good for you, but you aren't considering that the cost for goods that artisans need to buy will also increase. And I completely disagree with you that resource prices won't increase astronimically. The prices for junk resources may not be affected, but who cares about junk resources. As a weaponsmith if I use junk resources then I'm out of business. But the prices for the best resources, which already go for 4-6 cpu when in current shift, will jump considerably, especially when they become extinct resources.
The end of holo-grinding will bring about a crash in resource prices, in the short term. When resource prices drop, many people will decide it's not worth the trouble anymore, and they'll find something that's more fun/profitable to do. Gradually prices will rise again, and we'll see less junk resources on the market because those who stick with resource harvesting will have an economic incentive to harvest only the best resources.
There are a ton of different suggestions and ideas about what to do with different aspects of this proposal. This is NOT merely an Artisan issue. This is not even a Crafters issue. This would affect every profession in SWG. This is a global issue.
This may be the only thing I agree with you about. This is an issue that affects every profession. So, despite the protests of some artisans, every profession should get a say in this issue.
This ultimatley ends up being a problem with non crafters and some crafters. The non crafters because they want access to easy dollars with no skill investment. The "some" crafters because of their reasons I don't understand.
1) I'm not sure what you mean about easy dollars with no skill investment? Where is it written that artisans have invested any skill points in mining? The survey line allows artisans to survey, which gives artisans a tremendous advantage in using harvestors. No other profession in the game has this ability, not even other crafting professions like Doctors, BE's, Smugglers, etc.
2) Who cares if non-crafters are making good money selling resources? How does this hurt you or any other artisan? What stops you from doing the same thing? As an artisan you already have an advantage over all those non-crafting resource dealers, because you can survey and they can't.
3) The reason "some" crafters (actually, most crafters to judge from the posts I've read on this topic) oppose harvestor certs is because they realize that drastically reducing the supply of resources without reducing demand will dramatically increase prices. It also means that it will be harder for them to stockpile enough of the rare resources that they need to remain competitive in their fields. They see that their best interests are not served by limiting medium and heavy harvestors to artisans only.
I have a TKM/Swordsman and a Master Wep Smith/Master Arti on the same server. I wouldsurrender my harvs on the noncrafter if need be.
That's nice. Who are you to force everyone else to do the same?
Hope with this thread we can get away from the crap "MA's only are you crazy? thats a crock!!! What a load" because frankly that is getting annoying.
The reason there are so many "that's crazy" posts is because harvestor certs is a crazy idea.
Perhaps this will find it's way to a Global or game issue board. I don't know. Perhaps it will just filter away with the rest of the garbage on here...
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Ropik wrote:
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
See, here's my problem with that whole argument...
You pointed out that it's a nerf. That it will make some people unhappy, it will decrease the revenue stream that some people have, and will increase prices. That's a lot of negatives you're admitting to.
But you never indicated any *benefit* that anyone would see from it. Where's the benefit? Who gets the buff for the nerfing that all the non-crafters are going to take. Show me the positive in it all. Convince me.
And here's my second beef with the whole thing...
Artisans are NOT miners. Weaponsmiths are NOT miners. Armorsmiths are NOT miners.
They're Artisans, Weaponsmiths, and Armorsmiths.
The devs made a conscious decision to remove the Miner profession from the game early in beta. They did this because of time and resource constraints - something had to go in order to go "Live" and Miner was one of those somethings.
When they made that call, they decided to give everyone the ability to mine. They did NOT decide to give just Artisans the ability to mine. Or even just any Crafters. But EVERYBODY.
Why?
Again, Artisans are NOT miners. Weaponsmiths are NOT miners. Tailors are NOT miners.
Bottom line, leaving mining alone hurts NOBODY. Screwing with it hurts EVERYBODY (even the crafters who get to keep their miners, because fewer people will be able to afford to buy from them).
Let's don't screw with it.
Very solid. I stated that this is a global issue. And I think it should at very least be looked at. But ytou make as many solid points opposing as I think can be made in favor. The buff as I see it is obvioulsly increased revenue for crafters and not having to compete against non crafters in the resource market. It is obviously not going to be welcomed in one arena and vice versa.
I understand your desire to have an increased revenue for crafters, but you have to take into consideration that this will just further polarize the economy. There are many people who mine for some income, not all of their income, but say a hundred thousand credits a week. This would lead to the problem that people are seeing in real life. The rich are getting richer, and the poor are getting poorer. In the star wars economy the crafters are the wealthy, even the devs have admitted that. Now I am not trying to say that that shouldn't be the case! If a person's pursuit inthis game is to make credits, then dammit, he or she should make morecredits then me, as my pursuit in this game isnot just to make credits. The people this does hurt are the ones who are the "middle class" so to speak. The people who mineresources astheir supplental income. This will wrench that small but important source of income out of their hands and move it into the hands of the already wealthy crafters. The fact remains that by increasing the profit margines, by reducing supply,theseresource sellerswill movingone stepcloser to an even further polarizedeconomy. Yes it will normalize out, and there probably won't be a total breakdown of the system, but it will make it even harder for a new player to start in a game where it is currently very hard to start off in without assistance from an established player or group of players. It will also drive the cost of normal goods up, such as houses, where resource quality doesn't matter so much, but the sheer ammount of, in this case, ore that is needed would very quickly chew through the available supply.
As a smuggler, I do occasionally mine my own resources, but only when a friend (who is a bulk resource seller) finds a good place to put harvesters. I just do not have the skillpoints left over to include surveying skills. This would create a problem for other smugglers who do not have someone to find them a spot, and it would drive the cost of tools up, and therefore would drive the cost of slicing up. I don't want to raise prices any more then they currently have been raised, but if I have to pay 5-10 cpu for "regular" resources and 11-50 for great ones then I will be forced to do so. Now you may say that the quality of smuggling tools doesn't matter, so I could even use grinding resources, you are right, for the time being. When the smuggler revamp (slated for publish 11) comes around I would be willing to bet a large number of credits that resource quality, experimentation, and tool quality will play a major role in slicing results. I am one of the people who wants to give my best to my customers, just like almost every other craftsman who takes his role seriously, so if it meant I had to spend 50 cpu on good copper for clamps, then I would spend 50 cpu on them, but you had better believe that my slices wouldn't go for 5k any more.
I just do not see how taking the ability to mine resources away from the "generalpublic" so to speakwould be an effective change. If they want to create another class, called miner, to handle the resource gathering duties, then I would be willing to turn in all of my harvesters tommorow. But until then I do not see why a person whose job it is to refine raw materials into a finished product should be the only ones able to extract those raw materials in the first place.