Artisan Archive
Thread: For AFK Macroers EULA Interpretation 101
Gundymon wrote:
Ok.... obviously by saying distribute in the sentence about macros, they are talking about thrid party programs (DEVs or a CSR correct me and shun me if im)Why, you ask?Because SOE put the macro feature in game... Since the coding allows you to make loop macros... and you say that is violation of the EULA... well it can't be...Why, again you say?Because you can take the loop feature out of macros... Yes, kiddies you can code that feature out of the game... I have worked with and written many macros before...Which brings me to the conclusion that this is no violation of the EULAOnce again, correct me if i am wrong any DEV or CSR
Nope, distribute means to give to other people. So technically, posting never-ending loop macros on this board is "distribution".
They already did disable one of the looping mechanisms in the code but there are others that would significantly cripple the macro feature if they disabled them - and it still wouldn't stop the AFK macroers who would just switch to external programs. Check Holo's response regarding these issues at:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Development&message.id=56715&view=by_date_ascending&page=9
The macro "tool" is not the issue ... it is people who abuse the tool.
Bushwa
Randoooo wrote:
You are correct - SOE gets to decide. My statement was that this particular section of the EULA does not specifically prohibit looping macros from inside SWG using SWG tools as your original post stated that it did. (please correct me if that was not what you stated).
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1. You can't use or distribute macros that allow unattended game play (like these looping survey macros)
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I don't believe your comment about not taking into account the context of the sentence is correct.
As a matter of fact that's really my point - is that without specific definitions of what a macro is and what a macro isn't - it's ALL evaluation and guesswork, and given that there will ALWAYS be interpretation.
Yes, I do believe it covers macros from within the game as well, because I have bothered to research and understand the underlying issues that form the basis for these rules. Given this understanding, it becomes clear that restricting one (3rd party) and not the other (internal) would not achieve the desired goal. Restricting any and all forms of macroing that allow unnattended operation is the only interpretation of the rules that achieves the necessary end result - thus, it will be the definition they choose - or it the rule may as well not exist at all.
Bushwa
Sorry about the last post....forum flipped out....
What I was saying....Bushwa, you have commented on this a number of times yet one point remains I want to you to come up with a proof positive means by which to demonstrate someone is misusing AFK macroing. Is there some crystal ball you can use to tell if someone is snoozing in their chair, or sleeping in their bed, and at which point does the AFK sampling become bad? If I run out and water the yard am I a rule breaker? If I get a glass of water am I a rule breaker? I dont see any stipulation in the ELUA that makes any referance to the appropriate use of AFK. Until they remove this feature you will be hard pressed to convince people paying for this service that they can't use AFK sampling because it'sagainst the ELUA, cripes they added a "MACRO" feature into the game, if the ELUA covered all macroing then the very presence of that tab under the actions menu violates this rule. You figure out a wonderful way to define the word "unatteneded" and then define a way to prove that someone is as such THEN you might be able to argue this point, until then I'm afraid I don't feel that your argument has all that much merit. Just my opinion (and I realize i'm a terrible speller).
-Snova Eclipse Galaxy
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swg03 wrote:
Bushwa, you make very good points. My opinion may be the same as others, but may not. Sorry if this has been said, as I did not read the whole thread =P
I am paying a monthy fee, just as i'm sure everyone else is. If you want to break down the fee to hours, it’s about $0.02 an hour. Now, why would I forfeit my 2 cents an hour just to sleep? So what if I want to use my subscription to its fullest? If that means using a macro -which Sony so kindly provided the ability for me to do so- to sample over night, then why shouldn’t I? Its time I PAID FOR. I paid 2 cents an hour for my character to be in game, sampling something.
If Sony wants to charge by the hour rather then by the month, then that’s another story.
Sony included a bunch of commands to play the game. The users got smart and actually used them to there full potential. Why is that wrong? They have paid their dues.
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The monthly fee you pay (your "dues") is not for 24/7 non-stop connection to the server. It is for access to the server when you are physically playing the game. That is a condition you agree to (through the EULA) when you created your account and every time you play the game.
Macros are there to simplify game tasks while you are playing. There are no built in looping commands, and there is a limit to the length of a macro because they only intended them to simplify short sequences of tasks in the game. There are ways to make them repeat, but they were not designed to allow the macro to run forever.
The only thing that makes it "wrong" is that SOE says it is wrong, for thier game service.
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gearless wrote:
What I was saying....Bushwa, you have commented on this a number of times yet one point remains I want to you to come up with a proof positive means by which to demonstrate someone is misusing AFK macroing. Is there some crystal ball you can use to tell if someone is snoozing in their chair, or sleeping in their bed, and at which point does the AFK sampling become bad? If I run out and water the yard am I a rule breaker? If I get a glass of water am I a rule breaker? I dont see any stipulation in the ELUA that makes any referance to the appropriate use of AFK. Until they remove this feature you will be hard pressed to convince people paying for this service that they can't use AFK sampling because it'sagainst the ELUA, cripes they added a "MACRO" feature into the game, if the ELUA covered all macroing then the very presence of that tab under the actions menu violates this rule. You figure out a wonderful way to define the word "unatteneded" and then define a way to prove that someone is as such THEN you might be able to argue this point, until then I'm afraid I don't feel that your argument has all that much merit. Just my opinion (and I realize i'm a terrible speller).
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You are missing my point. It isn't up to me to provide those definitions or determine a method to "prove" anything - I am simply pointing out to those players who want to AFK macro 24/7 that they are risking thier accounts by doing so - and I provided official documentation to show why.
I have even gone as far as to explain why they would have a policy like this based on how it affects thier profits via increased bandwidth costs. These rules make absolute sense when viewed from thier corporate profit minded viewpoint.
No amount of debate regarding the subtleties and nuances of the language used and whether it would hold up in court, or could be challenged by a lawyer is going to save your account if they (SOE) determine that you are violating the EULA. They defined the rules in the EULA and also assigned the right of interpreting those rules to themselves, making our opinions on the subject moot.
It isn't my argument, it's SOE's.
On the technical side, if they want to know what you are doing when you play - they can. If you are running a macro that allows "unnattended play" (as determined by them) you have already violated the EULA. If you only used it during your regular play times (not when sleeping or working) they would never even haveareason to check or care that you used it, because they are still making a profit on your account. If you leave your turbo-sampler Bothan sampling without using anymacro 24/7, you will at some point determined by them violate a different part of the EULA.
The only reason they might even check on you, is if someone reports you for it (which is way too much like work for me :-) ) or if your monthly connection time goes outside of thier profitable range for your account.
Personally, Ihave a looping macro (for a /flourish sequence I like when playing starwars1 :-) ). I don't leave my character connected to the server when I'm not playing (except for bathroom breaks etc.). I don't reccommend that other players do either, because it impacts the people who are actively playing. I'm not going to waste any of my game time reporting people for trivial issues like being AFK and unresponsive for 6 hours or having a stupid name or wearing Rebel booties with Stormtrooper Armor. I wouldn't bother a CSR for trivial crap like that.
What you do is, and always has been, up to you. Just be aware of the potential consequences.
Bushwa
Bushwa, thanks for the info mom. (no, i doint macro, and i never will, but dude, what are you? EULA policy writer? Why dont you go do somthing useful like fixing CHs)
They are fixing this in the next patch, no one will be banned, end of story.
Mope1 wrote:
Bushwa, thanks for the info mom. (no, i doint macro, and i never will, but dude, what are you? EULA policy writer? Why dont you go do somthing useful like fixing CHs)
They are fixing this in the next patch, no one will be banned, end of story.
You're welcome. The info was in the context of the rash of "macro" threads that were going on at the same time it was posted.Lots of new players were being told "how" to macro and that they "needed' to macro in order to advance - I felt people should understand the risks involved so they could make a fully informed decision.
They aren't doing anything to stop AFK macroing in the next patch, they just added some pop-ups. People were posting work-arounds to the pop up messages within hours of it going live on Test Center. Not to mention, surveying is not the only activity to be macroed, just a very popular one.
I doubt anyone will be banned unless they are very stupid, I'm sure SOE will give a few warnings out before cancelling anyones account for AFK macroing.
I would fix the CH's and a host of other crap - but they won't let me near the code .. :-)
Bushwa
I am paying a monthy fee, just as i'm sure everyone else is. If you want to break down the fee to hours, it’s about $0.02 an hour. Now, why would I forfeit my 2 cents an hour just to sleep? So what if I want to use my subscription to its fullest? If that means using a macro -which Sony so kindly provided the ability for me to do so- to sample over night, then why shouldn’t I? Its time I PAID FOR. I paid 2 cents an hour for my character to be in game, sampling something.
If Sony wants to charge by the hour rather then by the month, then that’s another story.
Sony included a bunch of commands to play the game. The users got smart and actually used them to there full potential. Why is that wrong? They have paid their dues.
The monthly fee you pay (your "dues") is not for 24/7 non-stop connection to the server. It is for access to the server when you are physically playing the game. That is a condition you agree to (through the EULA) when you created your account and every time you play the game.
Macros are there to simplify game tasks while you are playing. There are no built in looping commands, and there is a limit to the length of a macro because they only intended them to simplify short sequences of tasks in the game. There are ways to make them repeat, but they were not designed to allow the macro to run forever.
The only thing that makes it "wrong" is that SOE says it is wrong, for thier game service.
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Please point out where in the EULA it says I cannot play 24/7. Besides there is nothing wrong with multi tasking. So what if I choose to play while doing other things at the same time. Some choose to chat in game while macroing, others choose to sleep. Nothing wrong with that. =P
Here's the bottom line on macro sampling resources.... the process is 90% automated already so what's the beef with a macro that basically issues a command to sit once every 5 min, and to sample resources once every 5 min? All boiled down, that's all the macro is and to think that anyone has a problem with automating this much of the process must be a real hater. Long ago survey experience ceased to matter to me. I'm not gettin any experience out of it, I'm not getting cash directly out of it, and I'm certainly not interfering with anyone else's ability to do the same thing. I spend 8-12 hrs a day sometimes playing anyway, so whats wrong with leaving my character sampling when I go to lunch or to sleep for the night. They auto-logoff after a couple hours anyway I think... I have no idea how long before autolog but I know it happens.
Bottom line I'm doing nothing different than what my harvester do, yet even macro'd, I cannot run constantly like a harvester while AFK due to auto-logging. So what's the beef? Personally I don't wish upon anyone having to sit and stare at their computer screen while they sample hours away.
***Check for cliff notes at the bottom!***
I think the pop up in test willcurb 90% of the people afk sampling which will probably satisfy the afk haters as well as SOE. So regardless of work arounds, I think SOE's efforts will be a success overall.
Starting out as a rodian novice artisan, I naturally stumbled across the fact that I could continue sampling for resources when I needed to get up to answer the phone, walk the dog, get myself a beer, eat dinner. The beautiful part about being a rodian and the long pause between samples was that I regenerated my HAM bar completely before the next sample. So literally withinminutes of my first sample I figured that would be a good time to get up and do something productive. I didn't think twice about whether what I was doing was right or wrong because it came across as something so obvious and natural how could it be wrong? Regardless, once I realized the game was autologging me after a few hours, I turned to the darkside of crafting and embraced the evil macro to help me with my problem. It wasn't until I started researching how the hell you write a macro in this game that I stumbled upon these boards and found out how taboo afk sampling really was.
None of the arguements against AFK sampling raised on these boards ever seemed very substantial to me (i.e. "it keeps the server full so people can't login." Well being that I did it while asleep and off hours while the server population was almost nil, I didn't see how I personally was affecting people's ability to enter the game, nor did I see how I was "flooding" the already over priced resource market with the 1k resources or so I had left over from my crafting xp grind for the day), so I during my first two weeks of the game, I continued to sample through the night to supply myself with the necessary resources to craft for the next few days as well as give myself some time to run missions with my friends after work. My philosophy was, "It'sall too easy.Surveyingitself is both mind numbing and completely automatic so being that this is how SOE made surveying and being that it takes absolutely no effort from me to do, why do I need to even be present while my character is doing it? Anyway, I'll stop if a CSR tells me what I'm doing is wrong."
Now that I've had some time to advance and build medium harvesters of my own, do I still afk sample? Generally not. Why not? because I don't have any need to. My harvesters supply me with all the resources I need, as well as plenty of excess that I can sell. Will people continue to afk sample? The people that really want to will after SOE tries to block it. Am I one of those people? Nah, definitely won't be worth the effort. Will I be pissed? Nope, afk sampling certainly isn't the backbone of my resource gathering operation, so I'm not going to cry about it. I do feel that it is a very helpful tool for the fresh crafting newbie however soI may decide to cry for them 
The macro system in this game is a lot like scripting in many FPS games, namely the tribes series. Scripting in tribes was a blessing and a curse. Sierra allowed for certain game commands to be executed through scripts. This was great because it allowed for a lot of automation of repetitive tasks and it also allowed scripters to make custom huds, commands, macros, all kinds of useful tools that kept the game fresh and interesting for years for us script whores. At the same time, there were also scripts that made things maybe too easy. Scripting was always a hot topic and many flames and debates were thrown around concerning tribes scripting. What was a completely harmless and simple script to one guy, was also a flagarant cheat script that gave one player a considerable advantageover otherplayers to thenext guy. Anyway, the macro system in this game is awonderfulthing lMO, but with the good there will always be the "bad".Whichmacros exactly arebad howeverwill be relativetowho you ask I'm sure.
I confess to trying out afk dancing with a loop macro, and even I felt pretty guilty doing that <
Oh well, at least that poor guy on at 6am the other day looking to get mind wounds healed in the bustling hamlet of doaba guerfel got the service he required. He was probablysurprised to see an entertainer in the normally dead cantina, especially at 6am.