Artisan Archive
Thread: For AFK Macroers EULA Interpretation 101
Ok... how about this? If you macro samplefor a certain period of time then you get flagged and anyone can attack and kill you regardless of faction?!
kidding!
one way or another they'll do something about it
/waits
Bushwa wrote:
The simple bottom line is money. The longer you are connected to the servers the more SOE pays in bandwidth charges and the less "profit" they make on your account.
Sorry, but I really doubt SOE is paying more the more I play. They probably have some T3 connections and may end up needing extra to accommodate more players as well as other servers to alleviate server load, but they're NOT paying by the minute or hour.
Why do you harp on Macros? Have you been put in charge of them? If Sony is going to do something, we'll find out. If you've been appointed, someone will post something to let us know. Otherwise, get on with your life and let others live theirs.
The macro sampler is NOT going to become a serious player in this game. Sure, he might log a lot of hours, but he won't make it to the top of the ladder.
Actually, I'd like to ask this question. How many of you masters our there with Millions of credits in the bank have done it based off of macro sampling?
Q: How much can you get from a harvester (if it's working) in 8 hours on a 75% steel resource spot? I can get 2K+ if I sample at level 4. I don't need the xp or maybe...
Q: Is there any use for surveying xp after you reach survey 4?
I am not a full time artisan. I gave up on that when I discovered how boring the crafting grind was. I am 10,000 xp from Master Scout and 30,000 unarmed xp from smuggler. I need metal for some of my traps and am thinking of getting novice weaponsmith for the slicing tools. So I don't need a lot of resources, but I do need some, And I want the best ones I can get. So I have a choice to sample or to harvest. I would rather harvest, but am unsure if I need that much material of a single type. Once I have around 2K of something, I am good for about a week, maybe longer.
Can I get some pro's to the harvester route and some examples of the costs and the results? It would really help me decide how to move my charactor forward from this point.
Honestly, if SOE really wants AFK sampling to stop, just disable /sample in macros.
There is no use for /sample in a macro except for afk macroing.
Until you can prevent the exploit, people will exploit. Remember, I would say maybe 5% (if that) read the message boards. The rest are the kind that just play, and 99% of them never read the EULA they "signed".
Again, I'm not going to state right or wrong here, as this topic has been hashed over til my brain hurts.
I would recommend that if the issue bothers you so much, get the Profession Reps to send it up. More often than not, the Devs are not going to read topics like this, because they are flame wars, even though they involve issues.
So, honestly, if you don't like it, send e-mail, because (from my history of working CS for several MMORPGs) your cries will never reach them.
One other thing. If you want to make a statement people will see, do something in-game. Organise a protest. Grab 100 people, go into the middle of a populated city, turn your afk flags on, and start mining. Doesn't matter if you're actually getting something. You are making an in-game point.
Now, granted, CSR may come and ask you to move due to lag issues or so forth, but arguing on message boards will not change things. CS tickets will *definitely* not change anything. Organizing LARGE numbers of users IN-GAME may not change anything either, but you will be a lot easier to notice than a post in a flame thread.
PadawanChong wrote:
Bushwa wrote:
The simple bottom line is money. The longer you are connected to the servers the more SOE pays in bandwidth charges and the less "profit" they make on your account.
Sorry, but I really doubt SOE is paying more the more I play. They probably have some T3 connections and may end up needing extra to accommodate more players as well as other servers to alleviate server load, but they're NOT paying by the minute or hour.
Why do you harp on Macros? Have you been put in charge of them? If Sony is going to do something, we'll find out. If you've been appointed, someone will post something to let us know. Otherwise, get on with your life and let others live theirs.
The macro sampler is NOT going to become a serious player in this game. Sure, he might log a lot of hours, but he won't make it to the top of the ladder.
Actually, I'd like to ask this question. How many of you masters our there with Millions of credits in the bank have done it based off of macro sampling?
Nope, they pay thier ISP for bandwidth used - because they use a TON of it and it can vary so much depending on number of servers, concurrent users, changes to the client / server code etc.
Holo also mentioned that ISPs don't particularlylike the bandwidth usage model of Online games because it is "sustained" bandwidth (like continuously downloading a never ending file) rather than "bursty" like viewing web pages, so they probably charge more for it.
Plus, you are using most of that bandwidth just by being connected. You don't even have to perform a single action. The bulk of the bandwidth back-and-forth is updates about what is going on around you.
I'm not harping on macro's per se - I just don't like people spreading mis-information to other players that could cause them to lose thier accounts. It's your decision whether to AFK macro or not, just be prepared to accept the consequences.
Bushwa
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The macro sampler is NOT going to become a serious player in this game. Sure, he might log a lot of hours, but he won't make it to the top of the ladder.
Actually, I'd like to ask this question. How many of you masters our there with Millions of credits in the bank have done it based off of macro sampling?
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I'll answer that one for you, Pad. I'm only a novice weaponsmith and I don't use macroing any more. Only ona rare occasion where I need a short supply of something and there is a good vein within the building radius. I don't even consider myself a serious "grinder" and macroing won't come close to keeping up with my needs. It's a rate limiting issue, but one that serves the entry level artisan who is struggling to get crafting up and running. That's why I don't want to see it go away until the harvesting issues are fixed and a better balance is established in the economy between what it costs to obtain resources and the income received from the wares that are produced. At novice weaponsmith with Firearms 1, I am deep in the hole. In my opinion the dev's understand that. They know it goes on, and they know its extent. That's their job. If and when they decide to intervene, my guess is we would get plenty of notice.
No serious crafter could come close to meeting their resource needs by using macros, once they hit novice smith. Weaponsmithing has pretty low resource needs compared to armor and architect and I could never do it. That's why this is a non-issue to me on the list of artisan fixes. As for the connect time bandwidth cost stuff... so? Thereis an endless list of game designs that promote long connect time. I'm not even going to bother to list them. The game will price itself based on supply and demand. That's anSOE issue not mine. If it becomes too expensive to play, I'll move on. There are a lot of MMORPG's out there to play.But since the macro-surveying issueis a daily obsession on this forum, I'll continue my cry of NO NERF, NO NERF, NO NERF and oppose the bandwidth police state.
The developers should focus their time on making harvesting more cost and time efficient; and develop a more robust mining tree. This will stop the frustration entry level players are having with harvestors; and provide affordable resources in the market place for those that don't wish to mine. NERFING has rarely advanced gameplay in the world of MMORPG's. The developers need to offer a carrot toward more efficient harvesting and NOT beat people over the head with the EULA stick. My guess is they understand that or we would have heard from them. Or at least my hope is they understand that.
Bushwa wrote:
Nope, they pay thier ISP for bandwidth used - because they use a TON of it and it can vary so much depending on number of servers, concurrent users, changes to the client / server code etc.
Holo also mentioned that ISPs don't particularlylike the bandwidth usage model of Online games because it is "sustained" bandwidth (like continuously downloading a never ending file) rather than "bursty" like viewing web pages, so they probably charge more for it.
Plus, you are using most of that bandwidth just by being connected. You don't even have to perform a single action. The bulk of the bandwidth back-and-forth is updates about what is going on around you.
I understand the concept of maintaining state, so no point in schooling me on how client/server interact when connected to this type of game, but how do you know for sure that they pay for their bandwidth. They'd be fools if that's really the case though as they know the usage is going to be continual. Lease a line or anything, but you're going to have a very hard time convincing me that they're going through that type of business model with this game unless you actually work for their accounting department.
PadawanChong wrote:
I understand the concept of maintaining state, so no point in schooling me on how client/server interact when connected to this type of game, but how do you know for sure that they pay for their bandwidth. They'd be fools if that's really the case though as they know the usage is going to be continual. Lease a line or anything, but you're going to have a very hard time convincing me that they're going through that type of business model with this game unless you actually work for their accounting department.
There used to be a detailed post by Holocron outlining why MMORPGs have ongoing fees - it disappeared with the old forums - but you can read a general version of it here, on Raphs (Holo) site:
http://www.legendmud.org/raph/gaming/busmodels.html
Do a search for "ongoing costs". This page is a generic version of the one he wrote specifically referring to SWG development and ongoing costs.
Bushwa
2 issues with your original note. First off:
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**** you may not use or distribute macros or other programs which would allow unattended game play
Note the clever use of the word "or" here ... it is crucial to the understanding of the sentence in that there are actually TWO statements here:
1. You can't use or distribute macros that allow unattended game play (like these looping survey macros)
2. You can't use other programs that allow unattended game play, like those 3rd party programs that let you run generic keyboard/mouse click macros in Windows.
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You are correct it's an interesting use of the word or. However it could be successfully argued that "marco or other programs"means the following - macro programs or other programs. Think of the following question "would you like a red or blue car?" In this case the word car applies to both the red and blue (unless of course you really are thinking about buying a red). Under this, the marco would have to be a macro program,meaning another program outside of SWG.
Secondly the definition of "unattended game play". What does this mean? Someone earlier stated it was obvious what this means. I don't believe it's so obvious. If I sit at my computer while the macro runs is that attended game play? If I turn on autorun and then head to the bathroom have I just begun unattended game play?
Just some things to consider when thinking that legal language is cut and dried. It's all interpretation unless definitions are given to a specific term. Unless SOE gives specific definition to the term macro, which is a somewhat generic term, it would be very hard pressed to be able to legally back up any actions it may take in this regard. The only real argument would be that the players using repetitive macros are breaking the spirit of this portion of theEULA - but saying there are specificy doing something forbidden is probably inacurate.
Haven't we been through this already with many other posts? Somebody please, just care about yourself, if a person wants to macro, then let them macro, they aren't spending YOUR money...anywho, im spent, please, this is the Artisan Board, post about Artisan, this is not the let's point fingers about Macroing board.
luuka
:
Randoooo wrote:
2 issues with your original note. First off:
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**** you may not use or distribute macros or other programs which would allow unattended game play
Note the clever use of the word "or" here ... it is crucial to the understanding of the sentence in that there are actually TWO statements here:
1. You can't use or distribute macros that allow unattended game play (like these looping survey macros)
2. You can't use other programs that allow unattended game play, like those 3rd party programs that let you run generic keyboard/mouse click macros in Windows.
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You are correct it's an interesting use of the word or. However it could be successfully argued that "marco or other programs"means the following - macro programs or other programs. Think of the following question "would you like a red or blue car?" In this case the word car applies to both the red and blue (unless of course you really are thinking about buying a red). Under this, the marco would have to be a macro program,meaning another program outside of SWG.
Secondly the definition of "unattended game play". What does this mean? Someone earlier stated it was obvious what this means. I don't believe it's so obvious. If I sit at my computer while the macro runs is that attended game play? If I turn on autorun and then head to the bathroom have I just begun unattended game play?
Just some things to consider when thinking that legal language is cut and dried. It's all interpretation unless definitions are given to a specific term. Unless SOE gives specific definition to the term macro, which is a somewhat generic term, it would be very hard pressed to be able to legally back up any actions it may take in this regard. The only real argument would be that the players using repetitive macros are breaking the spirit of this portion of theEULA - but saying there are specificy doing something forbidden is probably inacurate.
*sigh* - Once again, you are trying to evaluate the meaning of a specific sentence without taking into account the context of the surrounding text.It doesn't really matter because SOE gets to decide whether your actions violate the EULA or not, but lets continue for the sake of discussion.
So if you don't consider that statement sufficient evidence that you aren't allowed to run a looping macro all day while you are at work, how about this one?
You may not take any action which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load (as determined by us) on our infrastructure.
If they feel that you are suckin' too much bandwidth (the term too much being explicitly defined by them) for any reason, running a macro or not they can cancel your account.
Bushwa
Why, you ask?
Because SOE put the macro feature in game... Since the coding allows you to make loop macros... and you say that is violation of the EULA... well it can't be...
Why, again you say?
Because you can take the loop feature out of macros... Yes, kiddies you can code that feature out of the game... I have worked with and written many macros before...
Which brings me to the conclusion that this is no violation of the EULA
Once again, correct me if i am wrong any DEV or CSR
You are correct - SOE gets to decide. My statement was that this particular section of the EULA does not specifically prohibit looping macros from inside SWG using SWG tools as your original post stated that it did. (please correct me if that was not what you stated).
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1. You can't use or distribute macros that allow unattended game play (like these looping survey macros)
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I don't believe your comment about not taking into account the context of the sentence is correct.
As a matter of fact that's really my point - is that without specific definitions of what a macro is and what a macro isn't - it's ALL evaluation and guesswork, and given that there will ALWAYS be interpretation.