Artisan Archive
Thread: So you want to cert harvs? Fine. Here's a proposal you won't like...
joined42904 wrote:
Halaster,
Your scenario #3 option rquires things to go up to 10 times what they used to be. I doubt that will happen. If anything...these folks could help out some starting players who would mine. It's not that hard for a starting player to commit to survey4 plus novice artisan.
What starting players?
And if players with survey-4 were valued... I think they could be coaxed into obtaining good high quality resources.
Besides, you aren't at all taking into account all those houses full of large quantities of resources today that will almost certainly last well into the future.
You assume too much. I have a lot stockpiled, probably more than most WS's on my server, but only 3 of my resources will last more than 3 months.
Of course the hardcore PVP crowd isn't going to become survey-4 miners or elite miner miners... But there will be some migration into whatever is necessary to obtain resources. Docs would take survey 4 though I doubt they'd have the skill points for an elite miner profession.
You can be a master doctor +master elite combat and get to Survey 1. I don't see docs giving up combat to be surveyors.
The hardcore PVP crowd is the crowd that will fork over a lot of credits for minor combat advantages. I don't doubt you're right that they won't divest themselves of any combat-related skill points to go mine.
But these are the same folks who it makes no sense that they can mine at all under the current system. You probably don't agree...but this is basically the "combat guys mining" scenario that leads to folks wanting certs in the first place.
These guys aren't the problem. Like I've said in other threads, these guys are mining *RIGHT NOW*, mining the highest quality resources, and getting up to 5cpu for them with *CURRENT SPAWNS*. If there were a resource supply overage, the prices on these resources would be much closer to cost, which is in the neighborhood of .5cpu. Now if these guys were consistently getting around 1cpu, I might start agreeing that THEY are a problem. But they're not. X-server trades are, but there are better ways to solve that than certs.
Here's the beauty of the situation with certs.... The more prices go up, the greater the incentive to enter the certed profession or professions, whatever they may be. The more folks entering, the more prices will go down. I could even see miners demanding 5 of a given weapon to sell WS resources at xx cpu to the weaponsmith. If the weaponsmith wants it badly enough, he or she would comply. So if resources go up too much...there will be a real incentive to mine...especially as you are dealing directly with an elite crafter who has goods you probably want.
The more prices go up, the more it costs adventurers to buy gear. OK to a point, but certs on the Surveyor line will decrease resource inflow to such a great degree that gear will become unaffordable. That's why I posted this in the first place, it's a way to do certs without killing the economy. Dedicated adventurers will NOT give up their combat profs to mine. They will go to another game if it gets to that point.
Not everyone here shares your vision of what is fun in a game. That is the beauty of Star Wars: Galaxies. It has something for many different playstyles to do and enjoy. Don't force everyone to play the game YOUR way. Instead, maybe you should think about finding a way to enhancetheir gameplay with your own. THAT is where the profit is.
Remember, too, that this is not the real world, where people have to do what it takes to get by. People can choose to participate or not participate in this game. Make it too tough and they're gone.
Scoooter wrote:
You better believe it most wont and the resource demand for quality resource will sky rocket.
Right now the elite crafters do most of the mining of the quality resouce. Making a miner profession will not only cause fewer miners but also unreachable by many crafters because of SP's
P__Day wrote:
here is another proposal how about the harvs get certed like this :
Personal : Anyone
Medium : Master artisan or novice elite crafting prof
Heavy : Master elite crafting profs
Master elite crafting profs all elite artisan pros WS , AS , DE and so on + smugglers and doctor since crafting is a part of those profs DOc's have a whole crafting tree, smugglers have 2 spice and slicing both require resources and crafting equipment.
Factory cert :
1 at each branch of the elite professions. Docs Food and chem + equipment factory same for smugglers.
Face it to me a master artisan cost 71 or 72 Sp master weaponsmith costs92 master smuggler 121 master doc : 140 . Artisan is a STARTING prof its shouldnt get all the otehr crafter by the balls like this, just like a Master Marksman will get his head blown off by a master rifleman or Pistoleer or commando.
You argument is : The combat profs have weapon certs why shouldnt harvesters, i agree but not in a starting prof that i could master in under a day 6 hours probobly at most. thats like a novicebrawler gettingthe Scythe cert (cert at expert sword finesse) or a master marksman gettin to use the LLC or Flamethrower, the certs in the other novice trees are minimal you dont get any other certs at master brawler or marksman nor at scout, why should you get it? i think placing mediums cert in your tree is good enough the heavies should be certed (if they need to)in ELITE's not in a starter prof.
BTW how many of you have the 1.4 millionaproximatly it takes to buy 10 heavies, put maintenence on them, power in ,them total cost about 1.7 - 2 millions (for the harvs and power) , if your as poor as you say your are then maybe 2 outta 10 that means that the availeble resources will drop, they will become more expensive and the end products will become more expensive. and if its one thing everybody can agree on its : things are expensive enough as they are.
Finally a Master Artisan has a way better base for making money than any other novice prof alone the only combo that could challenge you is : master scout and atleast 1 line in a combat prof totalling the cost to 30+ more sp than you have to spend. you can make several components DE's need, you can make vehicles (the only ones who can) and last i checked a swoop costs about 16k to make even less if you mine your own resources say 10k one of my heavies pull enough to make about 15 swoops pr week at least and swoops sell for in between 20 - 35k that 10 - 25k profit pr bike in 15 bikes say 17k profit pr bike thats 225k pure profit to me that alot for a starting prof.
You are forgetting the elite crafting professions not based off of artisan here.
joined42904 wrote:
Halaster,
I am glad that you are now in favor of certifications.
You twist my words. I am not in favor of certifications. But if certifications must exist, they should be applied to an elite class in such a way that won't dramatically reduce the quantity of resources that can flow into a galaxy.
My artisan is completely noncombatant and would probably take the miner profession if it existed.
I'd do this in a heartbeat, too.
I support your call for a miner professions and agree completely with an absolute need for harvester certifications. They need to be put in somewhere.
Not necessarily. I agree that something needs to be done to eliminate x-server lot trades. Certifications (sans this profession) is, in fact, the worst option I've seen to deal with that problem.
If there isn't going to be a miner profession, however, the survey line of artisan seems like an excellent place to put certifications. I fail to see what the novice elite professions have to do with resource extraction. They don't even spring from that branch or have any resource extraction skill requirements as a pre-requisite.
Surveyors have nothing to do with resource extraction either. Only with finding the resources. Reference oil mining operations IRL if you will. One team of experts locates the deposits of the oil. Another team entirely goes to that spots and taps it to see if the locating team was right. A third team then shows up (assuming they got a "hit") and mines it.
Further, certifications on the Surveyor line will reduce resource influx to the point that Master Starter professions will have a stranglehold over Master Elite professions regarding resources. I don't see Master Marksmen having the ability to kill Master Riflemen with little to no effort. Nor do I see Master Scouts significantly out-skinning Master Rangers. And who's gonna fare better at healing and combat, the Master Medic or the Master Combat Medic?
Harvester Certs at Artisan level are a ploy for lazy or stupid people to extort ingame funds from people who have the commitment and intellect to master and do well at an Elite crafting profession.
I do think that the additional miner lots ought to be restricted to use for harvesters if they do recreate miner as a profession. No fair using all those extra lots for small naboo houses to store millions of resources!
Agree.
Miners I wager would join my call for removing admin on harvs so that other professions can't gain the miner's management bonus.
Good catch.
I say we need certifications somewhere. I like the idea for a miner profession. And I trust the devs to put certs where they belong if certs are implemented.
I hope the devs either don't implement them or implement them *correctly*. Which is to say NOT in a starter prof.
(By the way...wherever certs are placed...I think folks will migrate to that profession.)
Most won't. I know of one particular conglomerate on my server that is made up mostly of adventurers. Some hardcore PvP types too. They won't give that up in order to keep mining. They'll drop out of mining. Which is bad, because they are the guys who go after the high quality resources that are all too rare still on Naritus.
Of course, once they drop out, they'll see the prices on the armor and weapons they use skyrocket, because as resources become more rare, they will become even more expensive and that cost will be passed on to the buyer. Once that happens, it's decision time for them. Find a way to pay 10x or more what they used to for gear, drop doing what they love in favor of being an artisan to mine, or go play another game. I know these people. I know why they play this game, and it ain't to be an Artisan. Most will opt for #3.
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
joined42904 wrote:
Halaster,
(By the way...wherever certs are placed...I think folks will migrate to that profession.)
Most won't. I know of one particular conglomerate on my server that is made up mostly of adventurers. Some hardcore PvP types too. They won't give that up in order to keep mining. They'll drop out of mining. Which is bad, because they are the guys who go after the high quality resources that are all too rare still on Naritus.
Of course, once they drop out, they'll see the prices on the armor and weapons they use skyrocket, because as resources become more rare, they will become even more expensive and that cost will be passed on to the buyer. Once that happens, it's decision time for them. Find a way to pay 10x or more what they used to for gear, drop doing what they love in favor of being an artisan to mine, or go play another game. I know these people. I know why they play this game, and it ain't to be an Artisan. Most will opt for #3.
You better believe it most wont and the resource demand for quality resource will sky rocket.
Right now the elite crafters do most of the mining of the quality resouce. Making a miner profession will not only cause fewer miners but also unreachable by many crafters because of SP's
P__Day wrote:
here is another proposal how about the harvs get certed like this :
Personal : Anyone
Medium : Master artisan or novice elite crafting prof
Heavy : Master elite crafting profs
Master elite crafting profs all elite artisan pros WS , AS , DE and so on + smugglers and doctor since crafting is a part of those profs DOc's have a whole crafting tree, smugglers have 2 spice and slicing both require resources and crafting equipment.
Veers_Intrepid wrote:
this is exactly how it should be and what would benefit also the whole economy.
to put such just to master artisan would be utter joke, its a lousy basic craft profession and a stepstone for elite profession, nothing else. you can master artisan in some hrs.
and master artisan got no benefit? hmpf funny, they the only ones can make vehicles and stuff otehr professions need as subcomponents, its the ultimate best basic profession of all (cash wise).
but it is and stays a step stone to the real profession someone picks.
Ok here here it is again. Although my orginal post that started alll the hoopla surrounding certs did in no way suggest that certs be implemented but only a fair balancing. http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=artisan&message.id=36236#M36236. you say here that artisan is stepping stone and that is true but is it not true that scout is a stepping stone yet to harvest creature organics you must invest 15 precious skill points for that ability. You are also right that MA's are lousy basic craft profession but is it right that a player should be able to master two, or maybe two and a half elite combat professions and gain the well earned ability to slayhigh level npc with little or no helpmake millions on the loot (just check the trade forums for proof 3-6 million for +5 riflespeed tape) and harvest resources simultaneously, whos really being greedy here? I ask you can a pure elite crafter (I will use myself as an example master chef/artisan/merchant, marksman 0/4/0/0) go out and take even the weakest say nightsister evenwith the best buff on the server? the answer isHELL NO! "ahem,ahem" so again although harvester certsmay not be the definitive solution there is a problem here.....
Outta
Well, I joined the discussion on this board recently of course, but as far as I have seen there haven't been any posters that wanted harvester certs just as a source of artisan "power". I've seen all sorts of harvester certification ideas over the last year or so and only one of them involves master artisan. Harvester certs could be from an extra profession, they could be in the elite professions themselves, they could be losely or strongly tied to artisan . . . whatever. From what I've seen of the discussion, at least, you're greatly overreacting to a position that might not even really really exist.
StGabe.
Again, I'm not a huge harvester cert fan myself. One idea that strikes me as possibly viable however is something where harvester lots are removed from regular lots. A character might start out with 1 harvester lot. Through surveying, master artisan, and various boxes in elite crafting professions they would see an increase in these harvester lots (possibly capping off at a certain amount -- 10 perhaps -- so as to prevent lots of dabbling for too great a number of harvester lots). With this all characters would have their 10 initial lots for houses, factories, etc., and would simply have the opportunity to earn more lots for harvesting above and beyond. This would have to be carefully balanced of course.
The point is, there are TONS of harvester cert and OTHER ideas out there. Most of the support that I see isn't based on any particular idea but is more based on general concern that harvesting is far too easy right now and should involve some stronger form of investment (other investments such as time, etc., might work instead of SP's of course).
StGabriel wrote:
I say you won't like it to those of you whining because the only support I see you using in your whines is that you can't find a way to make money as a Master Artisan. Guess what? IT'S A NOVICE PROFESSION! It's not supposed to make you rich, any more than Master Brawler will enable you to solo a Kimogila.
Well, I joined the discussion on this board recently of course, but as far as I have seen there haven't been any posters that wanted harvester certs just as a source of artisan "power". I've seen all sorts of harvester certification ideas over the last year or so and only one of them involves master artisan. Harvester certs could be from an extra profession, they could be in the elite professions themselves, they could be losely or strongly tied to artisan . . . whatever. From what I've seen of the discussion, at least, you're greatly overreacting to a position that might not even really really exist.
StGabe.