CUEmu - Thread Posts

TheBratman

Wed Jun 02, 2004 10:23 am

/agree

MA should be the prerequisite for Shipwright.

MarMarSith

Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:18 am

#15

I'm all for MA's having the ability to create powerups. Especially if these powerups or consumable, thiswould create a market for MA'a, and at leastleverage their other skills like merchant andsurveying. I do not feel that MA should be a pre-req for shipwright especially since every building profession in the game (droids, buildings, armor, weapons), just requires engineer. The key is not allowing Shipwrights the ability to create power ups.

Marzigrif MA

Radiant

Futrue owner of Riverside Starships (Ships for Friends and Family)

TheBratman

Wed Jun 02, 2004 3:40 pm

#16

DirthNader wrote:

TheBratman wrote:

/agree

MA should be the prerequisite for Shipwright.

Why? What do surveying, basic business, and domestic arts have to do with shipcrafting?

What do surveying, basic business, and domestic arts have to do with Vehicle crafting? Nothing, but it is a prerequisite to getting to craft a vehicle.

I wish that there was a better system and I do agree with you. All those things mean nothing when it comes to shipcrafting. There just isn't a better way to do it. To be honest, I just want Shipwright to be more than just a grind through Eng. IV and wham! you get to build a ship. It should mean something.

DirthNader

Wed Jun 02, 2004 6:59 pm

#17

TheBratman wrote:

What do surveying, basic business, and domestic arts have to do with Vehicle crafting?

I'll copy this from my post above to answer your question:

The reason the vehicles are a master artisan item has more to do with limiting the number of players that can craft vehicles than it does with throwing a bone to master artisan. Since there was no elite crafting profession implemented for vehicle crafting, something had to be done lest every weaponsmith, droid enigineer, armorsmith or architect churn out vehicles with our obsolete materials (and believe me, some of my "obsolete" metals are extremely nice). This will not be a problem with ships, as an elite crafting profession(shipwright) will be required to create them.

The artist formerly known as Ittov

TheBratman

Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:43 am

#18

DirthNader wrote:

TheBratman wrote:

What do surveying, basic business, and domestic arts have to do with Vehicle crafting?

I'll copy this from my post above to answer your question:

The reason the vehicles are a master artisan item has more to do with limiting the number of players that can craft vehicles than it does with throwing a bone to master artisan. Since there was no elite crafting profession implemented for vehicle crafting, something had to be done lest every weaponsmith, droid enigineer, armorsmith or architect churn out vehicles with our obsolete materials (and believe me, some of my "obsolete" metals are extremely nice). This will not be a problem with ships, as an elite crafting profession(shipwright) will be required to create them.

I'll agree with that. Good points.

The only real reason that I wanted Shipwright to require MA was to make those who want to be a Shipwright - which in my opinion should be the be-all-end-all of the crafting world - spend more skill points to be able to get that.I compare this toa BH or Commando that needs to spend a lot of skill points, and master 2 novice professions, to master the elite profession. These are prestegious elite professions and should require more to be able to master them (in terms of skill points).

I hope that made sense....it's very early and I've been up since 2:30am.

Akkurscid

Thu Jun 03, 2004 5:43 am

#19

Some other ideas for ship options ... (not all artsian I know and they'rerandom too)

Asteroid mining. Need someone to mine asteroids and theequipment to do it.

Tactical scanners. These would be able to "examine" a ship to see hulldamage and systems that are damaged or destroyed. Would use a vairable range and different amounts of power, depending on range.

Jamming systems. would disable Tactical scanners. therefore you wouldn't know who was the weakest link. (would be nice if they could jam the comlinks but it wouldn't stop teamspeak so I'd skip this part.)

More than one kind of Energy Weapon and Missile Weapon. Missle Weapons would probably have to be bought singlely or in small stacks like grenades, they could have various attributes besides damage,like "Lock on time" and "Lock on range" plus the total "Weapon Range" (It might be fun to be able to out run, out manouver,these things if you have good distance, angle on the weapon owner) Blasters and Ion weapons are mentioned but blaster is probably ageneric term.

Tractor beams. these could be variable in range and tractoring speed. used for space junk picking up ejected pilots.(It would be nice to include such possibilities)

Repair station. your ship has a repair station that can be used to help stranded damagedvessels.

Bounty Hunter Equipment. Maybe artisans could build BH droid launchers to be used from space.

Gas collection. There are nebulas in space maybe some could be useful.

Salvage recovery. Maybe there could be "Salvagable Materals" in space. Old wrecked ships to get parts form,(careful could be pirates) Artisans could be needed to actually salvage the derelicts. (Scouts can Milk animals after all)

Maybe Artisan could make Decoys. Missiles thathave signitureslike ships (looks like a ship) for a time, so if you are hidding in an asteroid field you could fire one off and let the attackers chase it.

Haul Cargo. Bland IMO, but maybe some people would like to do it, it is a modified delivery mission. (Smugglers would haul this stuff too, but try to get out of paying the tariffs, or could be contraband, ect)

Space bouys. ??? I have no idea what these could be for but it's an idea =)

Giant Solar Collection Arrays. Might put the ground basedSolar power plants out of business. I think it would be very cool if Spacecraft ran off of actual power in the same ways Harvetsters do, but at a much higher rate. Would make"Power Broker"a high power business. Espically if the powerplant in each space craft could take only one kind of power. Solar, Radioactive, ect ... *Dangit Jim, we ran outa wind! Uh.. you got any?*

I would like to see Engine and Power plants be two differentunits, basically just like their names Engines determine how fastyou can go, and POwer plants determine how much power youhave total like switching power to weaponsor shields or dumping all of itinto the enginesto "Busrtrun" out of there.However Irealizethey will most likely be the same unit, and ships will probably be a standard unit.

In reality I would like to see the ships split up into parts, Armorsmiths make the shields/deflectors(PSGs) Weaponsmiths do the weapons, Artisans, build the Engines and/or Powerplant, Shipwright make the Hull, deck plans,and installs the above componets in place. But I'm pretty sure each tree in the ship wright will handle a line, and the Master Shipwright will after a shorttime be the only thing that matters in ship building. (just like weapon and armor smiths now)

DirthNader

Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:40 am

#20

The devs have said space harvesting is out of the question. They don't want JTL to affect ground-based resource economies. Other enhancements would be interesting though.

To be dead honest with you though, as a longtime master armorsmith, I'm not a big fan of profession interdependency, especially to a novice profession. While I'm sure many of the artisans that take the time to post here are very accomplished, most in the game are very much novices. The last time I had a master artisan make schematics for PSG components it seriously took three hours of my time. It was a complete mess because he didn't know what he was doing. How could you blame him though - artisan is a novice profession.

It's not elitism, it's genuine frustration every time I need something made that I can't do myself. Tailors start to resent feeling like syn cloth and RFP schematic vendors after a while no matter how well you treat them, and most quality master artisans realize after a couple of weeks that their time is better spent in an elite crafting profession. You're left with players that either resent you or don't know what they're doing. Heck, even I can't help out the DE's sometimes when they come looking for crates of composite segments because most of the time my factories are busy.

Profession interdepency is great on paper(I used to go so far as to advocate the old schematic revocation concept), but in the game it turns into nothing more than a frustrating timesink for those of us who don't want to dabble in other professions to get the schematics we need to run our business.

Honestly, I say let the shipwrights have their own profession without being hamstrung by tying them down to master artisans. Even with a prereq of Eng IV, chances are they'll need to go up the business tree to sell their wares and they'll need so many resources survey IV will be a practical requirement for most of them. A 4/0/4/4 artisan has a lot invested in the profession already, no need to try and enhance master artisans by crippling the shipwrights.

Message Edited by DirthNader on 06-03-2004 06:43 AM

The artist formerly known as Ittov

Srednii

Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:13 pm

#21

It doesn't really matter to me if shipwright requires eng4 or M.Artisan, but I would like to point out if M.Artisan is required to get novice shipwright then Artisans wouldn't be making any ship components. Every shipwright would already be M.Artisan and thus able to make any components, and if that was the case then they might as well have those components in the shipwright tree then.

Most likely if M.Artisan was required for shipwright any interclass dependencies they built in would be to another crafter like DE, or Armorsmith/Weaponsmith, ect.

As for Artisans role... I would like to see consumables for the ship owners. A steady revenue generator selling something like repair kits.... then again now that I think about it the shipwright class itself will probably need something like that for continual revenue generation. Shipwright looks to me like the architect proff, a small number of big sales in an easily saturated market. Like architects they'll need something small and consumable to generate sales.

Hmm.. well I'm no idea man, other then components for ships (which wouldn't happen if shipwright required M.Artisan) then I don't know what Artisans could do with JTL.

I'd like to see gadgets maby. There's got to be more to JTL then spaceships (after all, they've been screwing us all over for the past 6 months to work on JTL, it's gotta be more then just ships), gidgits and gewgadsthat are usefull to have would be great as artisan craftables.

The problem is it's hard to think of things to make that wouldn't be coopted by one of the elite crafters.

I really liked that idea above about orbital resource scanners. If I as a crafter could get a ship and fly from planet to planet checking to see what they have available faster then I could shuttle from planet to planet. Well that would be very nice, AND something new and cool to do.

------------------------------------------------------------

Sre'dni Vashtar - Bria
sv Armoury -4976, 2712 Corellia

Akkurscid

Thu Jun 03, 2004 2:00 pm

#22

Dirth, I noticed you didn't want class interdependancy because of problems you had with artisans, but that is because you are trying to get them to help you make a single item. I have to say breaking the ship up into componets doesn't affect the Shipwright's ability to build a ship in the slightest.

You are thinking ofthe ship is an "item" or single unit. I am thinking the ship should be a Modular thing, like a character or house.

When ou buy your house does it come furnished? No, you put the furnshings in it you like, some made by artisans,display your weapons, made by weaponsmiths,armor, armorsmiths ect.

I'm saying the same thing, weapons should be made by Weaponsmiths. You only need a shipwright to install them. The shipwright shouldn't even include weapons on his fighter models, you should by the unarmed model and then get your own weapons.

Same with deflectors, you buy the Unshielded ship then Install your own Armorsmith created deflectors.

The powerplant and engines should be the same.

Afine solution would be that the Shipwright would include the basic "CDEF" weapons, defenses, engines but you would have to see the other professions to get them upgraded.

Class interdependancy nixed, the final ship depends largely on it's owner for combat effectiveness. Much like the player's character, he can buy new weapons armor vehicles ect. This variablity should be extended to TJL.

As for mining in space... thereis already another DEV blunder. JTL is just going to be another glorified flight sim. It will quickly become quite boring except for the few flight sim diehards.

DirthNader

Thu Jun 03, 2004 2:57 pm

#23

Akkurscid wrote:

You are thinking ofthe ship is an "item" or single unit. I am thinking the ship should be a Modular thing, like a character or house.

Oh, I see. Neat idea.

The artist formerly known as Ittov

Waelhreow

Fri Jun 04, 2004 5:18 am

#24

I think a shipwright should be a MA first for several reasons.

1) A shipwright in the SWG time should be like the shipwrights of the past a very rare, very valuable thing. If you don't make a Shipwright require MA, then to many people will be able to make a shuip and thats not good.

2) The adition of ships can really do great things for the economy, you could have a new line of sales for droid engineers, with Astromech droids, components, weapon smiths making the ships armaments, AS doing the same for armour, all the other professions could really benefit by having a new market to sell too. If the SHipwright is not a MA, however, they will be able to manufacture many of these things themselves and so this would not be good for the economy. Remember ships are going to be really high end, really high priced products, if most ships are made by only 1 person, the economy will be flooded by these people having massive amounts of money. If however, ship manufacture is a shared enterprise then the economy will improve, no inflate.

3) last thing we need is a Rifleman, CH, Shipwright, pilot - even a pilot shipwright would be a bad idea.

4) one thing that should be seperate however, in the basic artisian line is basic (I mean basic) ship repair. So pilots can repair somne of the damage on the fly, but not maintain perfect ships

SaleusCorwen

Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:37 pm

#25

IMHO the simple fact that MA = Vehicle builder it would not make any sense to have EngineeringIV be the only prerequisite for Shipwright.

if they did that then that is just a slap in the face of the MA in that vehicle schematicswhere just thrownat the MA without any real consideration or design. To me that would say that.. they had to put vehicles somewhere and MA just happened to be the one they chose..

From Land vehicles to Space vehicles is only a natural progression and if they really had this designed out this would logically be the way the prerequisites would be layed out. But then again many illogically things are in the design as it is..

Right now i get the feeling they would put it in EngIV line just to appease more of the player base (they are already losing players left and right)

If anything i would even like to see shipwright actually encompass land vehicles as well.

move the swoop and speeder into the shipwright and leave X34 in MA..

have 1 line of Shipwright be land vehicles (and add more land vehicle types to it) and have many components between the2 (engines, armor, etc..) used in both land and space vehicles.

with that we might even convince them to make land vehicles behave more like space vehicles (eg.. passengers, guns, fuzzy dice)..

---------------------------------------------------
Kettemoor Galaxy

Degasai

Sat Jun 05, 2004 8:49 am

#26

Food for thought. You, the reader, have just gone to work for Haden Blackman. You've been placed on the JTL team. Let's see what you can make of this.

Ship Requirements:

Hull Segments
Interior and Exterior Hull Customization Options
Armor Plating Segments
Weapons Hardpoints
Beam Weapons
Projectile Launchers
Missile Launchers
Tractor Beams
Weapons Loadouts (Missles and Ammunition)
Sub-light Engines
Trans-light Engines
Power Plant
Power Plant Fuel
Hydraulic Pumps
Robotic Assistants (Droids)
Sensor and Electronic Packages
-Shields
-Communications
-Planetary Resource Surveying
-Asteroid Resource Surveying
-Ship Detection
-ECM (Electronic Counter Measures)
Atmosphere and Environmental Plants
Gravity Generators
Inertial Dampeners
Cargo Space (selected models)
Furnishings (YT 1300 and larger)
Asteroid and Gas Cloud Harvesters
Asteroid and Gas Cloud Harvester Deployment Systems
EVA Equipment, Suits and Thrusters (external repairs and harvester servicing...boarding and vacuum combat operations)

OR

Harvested Deep Space Resource Retrievers
Harvester Power Deployment System

EDIT: Dang, how could I forget...

Fuzzy Dice, tunes (!), and adult beverage service

Possible JTL logic:

Introduce new resources that are only available in Space, or move some existing inorganic resources into Space. As an example, our own Real Life modern aircraft would not exist without the existence of titanium. Introduce a new resource or resources only available only in deep space that would be required to make even the most basic FTL (warp-capable) ships.

Make upgrades possible in most areas. Power Plants, Engines, Weapons of all sorts, shields, electronics, armor plating. This would require a compatible line of these items that would cross-class into the different ship types. The best equipment for a given class might be: Shiryywook(sp?) Missle Weapons, Mon Calamari Shields, Bothan Power Plants, Zabrak Beam Weapons, Twilek Sensor Packages, Human Engines, etc.). Something like an X-Wing could eventually upgrade through various stages into the components that are maximized for that class of ship.

Now, take each of the basic components in the beginning list, and think about what professions should be able to manufacture them. Don't limit yourself. Perhaps something like Engine Packages could be broken down further into basic components that would require different professions to manufacture them, and then require still another profession to assemble them. The resources used might control the quality of the basic component, and the skill of the assembler might control the overall assembled result. If you wanted to, you could assign each of the assembled components to an existing elite profession. You could then have place all final assembly into the hands of Master Artisans. This would do away with the need for a Shipwright class entirely. The possible combinations and solutions are legion. Your job is to come up with the best solution for Game Balance(tm). Your primary objective is to increase the utilization of existing classes. Are Droid Engineers in need of some developer attention in order to make them more useful? Then don't limit them to just the obotic Assistants. Give them Engines and Power Plants, as well. You get the idea.

OK, now you have all your components. Time to assemble them into a ship. First question: Where do you do it? Does it make sense that a Shipwright can assemble a ship at a crafting station? Would it be possible to introduce a new "Shipyard" player structure, built by architects? For full immersion, should ships be built in "Orbital Shipyards"? Should they be built in stages, or should you be able to assemble them all at once? Must you have an existing hull with hard points prior to weapon installation? This would require that you have a physical hull in front of you with a radial menu something like "Install Missile Weapon-HardPoint 1".

Just letting my imagination roam around here. I'm not advocating anything at all. Like it says at the top: food for thought.

Message Edited by Degasai on 06-05-2004 08:53 AM

Degas
MCH(Retired)MP(Retired)
Now playing as FOTM (SOE wins)
Degasai
12 pt. MD / 11 pt. MA

Empire and Rebellion agree:The true threat to the Universe is SOE

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