CUEmu - Thread Posts

P__Day

Wed May 19, 2004 8:56 pm

OK sinist i see that comp cant be 80% kinetic as you say since 80% kinetic at least on my server sells at 300k+ a laser rifle is 10k so are doc buffs, slices are 3- 5k so in your own words you must have made about 400k your first day of marksman without any otehr skills, teh loot from the NPC's at faction missions are from 0 - 300credits pr person at the level you speak of that would make each mission worth about 3k each mission asuming you had a vehicle and 2 missions in the same direction your could make both in about 20 minutes thats 9k pr hour. or 90k in 10 hours of play still not to bad

And BTW to ninja loot as i understand it is when your grouped you dont have to do the most damage to get loot rights, since the one who is closest and as quickest on the loot button gets it.

though i can agree that harvs might need certs and that there are to many people harvesting atm, withserver lots trades and such but wait untill patch 10 before anything ischanged since there wil be no more hologrinders you will have the joy of true competion ove r getting hte most resources at hte bestquality at the best price to actually sell anything, you should wait for that.

Sinist

Wed May 19, 2004 9:04 pm

#145

Its not about prices.

Its about there are too many resources being harvested.

Too many items being produced.

And too much of people thinking they are entitled to stockpiles of the best resources the game has to offer.

The game needs to balance resources harvested in which people will only be able to produce on a marginal scale and not in excess. And ive conclded the only way is through harvester certifications or skill mods for harvesters and factories. PEROID. I will accept nothing more and nothing less.

Id rather play a game where crafters competed and were competitive to each other all while recognizing their limits and not expecting to be able to stockpile valued items or always have the best resources to make 100 or so awesome weapons or armor segments. Stuff like that needs to be rareand prestigious, not the norm and expected out of the crafters foreveryone.

The list goes on and on the problems it would fix. There is not 1 negative thing. Not 1.

Oh and btw pday the composite wasnt in the 300k range, and it has high encumberance which is why I needed to get a doctor buff to put it on in the first place. And I was making over 10k an hour not 9k and yeah 90-150k a day isnt bad at all. By no means. Thats not that far off from even the most rarest and expensive items ( i know some are in the millions) but your going to get lucky on a loot drop your self eventually anyways. So combat classes are balanced economically. You can argue it all you want.

Message Edited by Sinist on 05-19-2004 09:07 PM

Faiereon Exek
Master Artisan

Srednii

Wed May 19, 2004 9:21 pm

#146

Sinist wrote:

Its about there are too many resources being harvested.

Too many items being produced.

Well I say There's not enough resources being mined. I say there's not enough items being produced.

I wonder who SOE cares more about, the 2 account customer who's been playing (and paying) steadily for 11 months (me). Or the whiny noob who's been playing 2 weeks (you).

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

------------------------------------------------------------

Sre'dni Vashtar - Bria
sv Armoury -4976, 2712 Corellia

Bugbait

Wed May 19, 2004 9:39 pm

#147

Scoooter wrote:

The bottom line is the Artisan professionis not a mining profession.

The artisan is the basic profession for learning elite crafting. Look at the skills. All crafting except one line and that is survey. The ability to survey does not mean you are miners. It was placed there because the elite crafters need to find resources. The survey line is the ability to find resouce not mine it.

There was a mining profession in beta that was determined to be boring and unplayable. Also it was determiend that the economic impacts of constraining resource influx into the economy to a profession that had little content or incentive to get in except greed would be a bad thein. Well SOE was right on that one.

The VAST majority ofartisans are also elite crafters that do not want this. Why because most of he mining is doen by elite crafters.

However there are some that want to make quick cash gouging the player community selling for 8-10cpu what is mined at a cost of1-2 cpu. Why do yoiu think everyone mines in hte first place.

Ok these people that want to make money on resouce take some survey, enough business line to get a vendor and go to town. And these people call themselvs artisans.

No they are dabblers that dont want to craft anything and make a huge profit gouging everyone. These people want to now control the economy and basically make their hold worse.

The economic reality as outlined in the above links shows the people that want this are just greedy and are not looking at the whole picture.

The is no miner class and since no elite crafter will have the skill points to get that class it wont fly.

Since the medical professions are the only crafters not granted survey skills I see what would happen already.

What will happen is artisan dabblers will continue not to craft even though the purpose of the artisan profession is to have the base skills for elite crafting. We will just have less reasouce out in the market and everyone will be at the mercy of gouging resource vendors.

AGAINARTISAN IS NOT A MINING PROFESSION.

Get past that.

THE MINER PROFESSION WAS REMOVED FOR VALID REASONS

One other thing to remember

THERE IS NO MINER PROFESSION

If you look at the above links the proponents of this answered issues with emotion and not facts as they are in this thread. Issues need to be addressed and answered with facts which no one ie wiling to get or they know the outcome and just want to try to whine this into being.

Read the links and see that this is just greed based and people just wont let it die

Artisan is not a mining profession? According to you, the Dev's, the manual? MMPORG's are evolving games by nature so this statement is rather empty.

The Artisan profession and specifically the Survey line is there so elite crafters can find resources. Paraphrasing your words. No one is debating this. I wholehearted agree hence the suggestion that medium if not heavy harvester certificationsbelong here. If what you saying is true than every elite crafter should have the Survey tree anyway so what's the big deal?

Survey is about finding the resource not mining it. Think outside the box for a second. If you think about it, how does anyone "block" a shot from a gun? This isn't about what should or shouldn't fall into the definition of survyeing. It's about game balance. Remember the defence caps? They were all about game balance and harvester cetifications are no different.

I've said it many times now but I'll say it again, it's about adding a cost or sacrificein terms of skill points to efficient harvesting. Harvesting is the ONLY activity in the game where anyone can use both the worst (personal) and best (heavy) of a class of item with no cost to skill points and at maximum efficiency. News flash, it's not about making Artisans more valuable, it's not about resource control, it's not about nerfing the player base, it's simply about balance.

You say the vast majority of elite crafters are also Artisans and they don't want this. Of course not, since it would reduce they abilty to self harvest. They might actually have to buy resources and interact with the player economy. They won't be able to cheaply rent lots from other players if there are certifications.

Price gouging? Well, anyone can take up a few boxes in Artisan and continue to price gouge as you put it. The only thing that would change is that instead of getting harvsting for free they'd have to pay 15, 30, whatever skill points. That's theONLY difference. What seems very clear here is that no one wants to give up their skill points. How many here would be okay if all medical certifications were removed for Stim's? Why not let anyone use Stim E's? That's exactly what's happening with harvesters. No if's, no but's, it's EXACTLY the same thing. How many combat classes would love to drop Novice Medic so they could further enhance their combat template? I know I definately would.

Don't try to label the Artisan "dabblers" as the greedy ones trying to monopolise the resoruce market. Label the elite crafters as being the greedy ones for wanting to maintain the ability to mass harvest at little to no skill point cost. These are probably the people who want to be master crafters and have enough skill points to be elitecombatantsAND be able to harvest all their own resources. Who's being greedy now?

The elite crafters don't support this because they don't want to relinquish their monopoly on large profit margins, ie. By renting cheap lots and reapings thebenefits of high supply. Not true? You strongly hint that 8cpu to 10cpu is an inflated pricebut it's okay to turn around and sell weapons, amour, enhance pakcs, food, etc. at 25cpu to 60cpu or more? Who's ripping off whom?

You use greed a lot in your thread. You're right, the greed of elite crafters is a bad thing.

Rildan Urgess - Zabrak ???
Zugat Urtan - Trandoshan Rifleman: RETIRED

Giamai

Wed May 19, 2004 9:44 pm

#148

Sinist wrote:

Giamia very nice post.

But with the halt of hologrinding, that means less resources are going to be consumed and we will still have the same game mechanics in place for people to potentially harvest the same numbers.

Wether or not people will noone can say, but as long as the game mechanics allow it, it is a problem wether or not people decide to.

So your post is flawed on a logical side becuase you still cannot say wether or not there is a problem. And your saying that the problem may iron itself out with just as many resources being harvested and elss resources being consumed? Thats backwards.

actually no, i'm saying i can't predict how the economy will turn with asuch adramatic change looming on the horizon, not that there isn't currently a problem at hand. i am not kenneth galbraith, nor would i presume to pretend to be able to make such predictions. it may or may not work itself out. it should also be noted that ALLof us can theorize on the outcome of this future publish but thats really all it is, rhetorical arguments back and forth discussing a problem that may or may not exist in 3 months time. Any time the nerf bat is used, the loss is not returned if the tides shift (CH pets as an example, that profession has not recovered).

You cannot predict the outcome any better than i can, that is the heart of my post.

I gave you a 1 star because you have been a follower of the discussion yet still alck the abaility to understand the logics and comprehension of it. Which to me in my opinion make syour view on this unconstructive, unneeded, and just wrong. IN MY OPINION. If it wasnt I would be a dictator and im not trying to be. Very nice post though and I applaud the effort at least.

you base your determination of my understanding of the issue on what? i propose that you are attacking a symptom without looking at the underlying etiology... that is understanding the problem..but in global terms, not a localized view.

what exactly does the 1 star do for you anyway?

LOL! i can't see that it makes any difference. hope its good therapy for ya

TGiamai Oewai (Elder Jedi without a clue)T

T Giaman Srawhe, 12 pt MWS [GS] Weapons, near Theed -3955, 3322T

TGiavamai Oewai, Where's the lewt?T

T Ahazi T

T*Not everyone who wanders is lost...*T

Sinist

Wed May 19, 2004 9:51 pm

#149

Thank you it is very much good therapy for me.

But for what we know of the upcoming changes coming in Publish 10, the problem will still remain. In fact it will get worse. Hologrinding actually made the problem seem not as bad, but now with it gone its now going to become painfully obvious.

Hence why I am proposing the solution on a demand and not as a consideration.

And well I want no part of the game as it is now, or as it will be after publish 10 (as of right now).

So all this in consideration I decided to drop my subscription until the problem is fixed. No real huge loss for me and not really a huge loss for SOE either but hey what can I do? Im trying to help the game all while not being banned or possibly jailed for trolling or straight out beating people down.

Faiereon Exek
Master Artisan

Bugbait

Wed May 19, 2004 10:02 pm

#150

On the greed issue that the elite crafters like to brandish. On Valcyn a good, stocked T-21 used to be 25k-30k. Now it's more like 55k-80k due to the notable increase in the Rifleman population. This is a gun that takes about 1000 resources to make. That's a 25cpu to 80cpu return. Resources in shift generally sell for 3cpu to 5cpu on the same server. Even if this was to increase to 10cpu or 15cpu how can you possibly justify that resource resellers are ripping off the elite crafters? The numbers speak for themselves. The elite crafters want to maintain their profit margins. Most combatants agree that weapons and armour are quite good value (bang for buck) even at 80k for a T-21 and 500k+ for a top of the line, triple layered, full suit of Composite. Weapons and armour at these prices sell like hot cakes on Valcyn so the combat community can't be dying for money.

Oh, that's right, they all suppliment their income by selling resources. What if they can't suppliment their incomes as much due to harvester certifications? Instead of using BER 13 heavies they have to downgrade to BER 5 personals? Well, if they can't afford to pay 500k for a suit of Composite then the price will drop. If the price on armour drops then so will the buy rate on resources and thus inflation (which is far too high in most if not all galaxies) is contained. Basic economics, something the doom and gloom promoters have ignored.

EDIT: Who wins most of the high end auctions on Valcyn? The top architects, weaponsmiths, armoursmiths, doctors,chefs, and hardcore mob hunters. Yes, those evil Artisans aren't the rich ones. If you're looking for greed try a mirror. The top armourmsiths on Valcyn have bank balances that exceed 300million. One of them is likely well past 500 million by now.

Message Edited by Bugbait on 05-20-2004 03:06 PM

Rildan Urgess - Zabrak ???
Zugat Urtan - Trandoshan Rifleman: RETIRED

Tras2

Wed May 19, 2004 11:03 pm

#151

This is a BAD idea IMHO.

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AxlerTwinblade

Thu May 20, 2004 12:06 am

#152

Ok i do not understand the fear everyone is having with possible Harvestor Certs. But i am open minded so i thought perhaps its because i am thinking about them diffrently then some. here is the way i see Certs working if implemented.

Personal Harvestors:

Anyone. Anytime. Anywhere. --> No certification required. None.

Medium Harvestors:

Master Artisan - Certification Achieved

MasterMedic - Certification Achieved

NoviceTailor - Certification Achieved

NoviceDroid Engineer- Certification Achieved

NoviceWeaponsmith - Certification Achieved

NoviceArmorsmith - Certification Achieved

NoviceArchitect - Certification Achieved

NoviceBio-Engineer - Certification Achieved

NoviceCombat Medic- Certification Achieved

Heavy Harvestors:

MasterDroid Engineer - Certification Achieved (not at novice because you did not have to master Artisan first)

MasterWeaponsmith- Certification Achieved (not at novice because you did not have to master Artisan first)

MasterArmorsmith- Certification Achieved (not at novice because you did not have to master Artisan first)

MasterArchitect - Certification Achieved (not at novice because you did not have to master Artisan first)

MasterBio-Engineer - Certification Achieved(not at novice because you did not have to master Artisan first)

Novice Doctor - Certification Achieved (this required you to MASTER Medic first)

Master Combat Medic - Certification Achieved (not at novice because you did not have to master Artisan first)

MasterTailor - Certification Achieved (not at novice because you did not have to master Artisan first)

Ok look at this from a CRAFTING profession bassis. not as a artisan basis., Medium rigs become available to all novice crafting proffessions that Required 1 full training column in something else to even start off the Novice. Master artisans get this certification as well. This i looked at from the perspective of YOU harvesting your own needs and the quantity you would probably need at your character level in the profession.

NoticeMaster Artisans dontget the Heavies, because its a tier 1 skill tree.

To get the heavy rigs and use them i think you should have had to aquire Master in a profession that is what i consider a tier 2 proffession (meaning you needed 1 full column of training in another field to even get the novice for it.) As a master in any of these fields you WILL be in need of tons of resources. but BEFOR this point... face it. all your doing is Grinding to get to this point.

Ok i know i havent covered everything and i know i have not got it perfect. but look at this for the Concept. Does this help any of the opanants to Harvestor Certs, see that I am not asking for a monopoly. I am looking for this as a Crafting profession balancing tool.

--Axler

SioBabble

Thu May 20, 2004 12:17 am

#153

AxlerTwinblade wrote:

Heavy Harvestors:

MasterDroid Engineer - Certification Achieved (not at novice because you did not have to master Artisan first)

MasterWeaponsmith- Certification Achieved (not at novice because you did not have to master Artisan first)

MasterArmorsmith- Certification Achieved (not at novice because you did not have to master Artisan first)

MasterArchitect - Certification Achieved (not at novice because you did not have to master Artisan first)

MasterBio-Engineer - Certification Achieved(not at novice because you did not have to master Artisan first)

Novice Doctor - Certification Achieved (this required you to MASTER Medic first)

Master Combat Medic - Certification Achieved (not at novice because you did not have to master Artisan first)

MasterTailor - Certification Achieved (not at novice because you did not have to master Artisan first)

This does not make sense.

A CM must master medic AND have trained the entireranged support line of marksman before she can train novice CM.

Why should she wait until the master box to get a heavy harv, when the doc, who has invested fewer SP to get novice, gets the heavy harv at novice? It is easier to qualify for novice doctor than it is to qualify for novice combat medic.

A BE must have the hunting line in scout and the organic chemistry line in medic before she can train novice. Why must the BE wait until master?

It would be nice if the harvester nerf criers (and that IS what we are talking about here, a nerf of every profession but artisan) would get their logic straight and know something about theother professions they are mucking with first.

Message Edited by SioBabble on 05-19-2004 12:19 PM

Tazz vonMannstein Baron-Administrator of Corellia, master navigator of Corellia, captain of the Gregarious Gurreck

Sio Babble MBH/MCH/Cabana Boy; master of Tyson, the GNORT OF DEATH

Jeffn Akbar Nerfed from here to Lok MD/MCM

Zanti Agaesia Bothan MBE, 12 point Master Chef, Havoc Squadron Ace pilot

Scoooter

Thu May 20, 2004 12:30 am

#154

Ok lets break this down because this comes up every few months in this forum which is why I periodically check out this forum

This keeps coming up and getting slammed down and there are two threads here already. Look at these old threads and you will see issues with this that are noit addressed in those threads or this.

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=artisan&message.id=27025&page=1

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Development&message.id=318491&page=1

The bottom line is the Artisan professionis not a mining profession.

The artisan is the basic profession for learning elite crafting. Look at the skills. All crafting except one line and that is survey. The ability to survey does not mean you are miners. It was placed there because the elite crafters need to find resources. The survey line is the ability to find resouce not mine it.

There was a mining profession in beta that was determined to be boring and unplayable. Also it was determiend that the economic impacts of constraining resource influx into the economy to a profession that had little content or incentive to get in except greed would be a bad thein. Well SOE was right on that one.

The VAST majority ofartisans are also elite crafters that do not want this. Why because most of he mining is doen by elite crafters.

However there are some that want to make quick cash gouging the player community selling for 8-10cpu what is mined at a cost of1-2 cpu. Why do yoiu think everyone mines in hte first place.

Ok these people that want to make money on resouce take some survey, enough business line to get a vendor and go to town. And these people call themselvs artisans.

No they are dabblers that dont want to craft anything and make a huge profit gouging everyone. These people want to now control the economy and basically make their hold worse.

The economic reality as outlined in the above links shows the people that want this are just greedy and are not looking at the whole picture.

The is no miner class and since no elite crafter will have the skill points to get that class it wont fly.

Since the medical professions are the only crafters not granted survey skills I see what would happen already.

What will happen is artisan dabblers will continue not to craft even though the purpose of the artisan profession is to have the base skills for elite crafting. We will just have less reasouce out in the market and everyone will be at the mercy of gouging resource vendors.

AGAINARTISAN IS NOT A MINING PROFESSION.

Get past that.

THE MINER PROFESSION WAS REMOVED FOR VALID REASONS

One other thing to remember

THERE IS NO MINER PROFESSION

If you look at the above links the proponents of this answered issues with emotion and not facts as they are in this thread. Issues need to be addressed and answered with facts which no one ie wiling to get or they know the outcome and just want to try to whine this into being.

Read the links and see that this is just greed based and people just wont let it die

Scoooter - Master Pilot/Master Politician
ScootBacca - Master Creature Handler/Master Rifleman
Co-Leader - mVa
Mayor of Mos Vegas, Tatooine, Valcyn

P__Day

Thu May 20, 2004 12:52 am

#155

I agree there should be harvesters certs BUT Artisans souldnteven have em in they'tr tree can you say BASIC proffecion can a scout make 30 million in a week harvestin organics? no why should you give the Harvie certs to ELITE profs SMugglers , Armorsmiths , DE's , weaponsmiths , Doc's and all elite crafting profs. Artisans just want an easy way to make lots of money by selling resources in a monopolized market without having to master an elite.

You should get the cert maybe for the medium in your master box, for the heavies you should have to master or arleast be 4-x-x-x something in an elite

Aeron-Blackthorn

Thu May 20, 2004 12:52 am

#156

*applauds Scooter*

Go Scoooter... Go Scoooter...

Aeron- Blackthorn / Jedi Desperado "Hi Ho Banta Away!"
Adriana- Darksun / Master Carbineer / Bounty Hunter

THIS IS NOT THE TIME FOR DWARVEN RIVER DANCING!!!

Artisan Archive

Thread: I am reading where folks want med and lg harvesters moved to higher skill levels or master