Artisan Archive
Thread: So you want to cert harvs? Fine. Here's a proposal you won't like...
Scoooter wrote:
You couldn't be more wrong
It comes down to the fact that elite crafters are gouged enough by resource vendors and therefore mine themselves. Certs will make the problem worse.
TH stated that there will be a "character lot rebalance"...some solution to deal with cross server trades. We don't know what that means yet however so those are bing addressed and all agree are a huge issue.
The miner professession was removed for good reason. SInce all professions depend of crafters funnelling all crafters through one profession (miner) as a dependency. And since miners sole content was "make credits and everyone depends on me" the nested dependency was considered detrimental to the game (and it is). So the planting of harvesters was changed to be an action requiring no skill. Skills are not required for all actions in this game.
It is also about the fact that is it a novice profession like artisan should not be a big money maker. The game is not designed that way.
And no certs do not HAVE to be implimented the arguments show that. What NEEDS to happen is deal with cross server trades and clearly define the issue at hand.
You keep claiming that elite crafters are being gouged by miners. Please give some real examples backed by numbers otherwise it's merely another scare tactic.
Mining profession removed? I tackle that in a response to your next post.
Why do you keep bringing up the irrelevant reference to Artisan being a novice profession? It's about skill sets not professions. We on the same wavelength yet?
The arguments from the non-certifcation crowd are getting weaker with each post. Most of the points raised by the "pro-certification" (I say that with a grain of salt because we're talking about more than just certifications)crowd haven't even been addressed let alone countered. Do we need to rehash it for you to make it simpler? You keep talking about the need to clearly define the issue at hand yet you offer no relevant arguments. Talk about ignoring the problems.
Scoooter wrote:
To show grapically why miner was removed everyone go through this exersize
Take a piece of paper.
Make a row of boxes containing all professions
Make a second row of boxes containing crafting professions
Make an arrow between the professions and crafting professions for what that character might need or want in goods or services. That denotes the depenncies.
Now that is the current dependency tree (simplified).
Now make a third row containing the resource gatheres..Ranger/Scout and Artisan/Miner
You will see that you now have tripple deep dependencies on miner, some on scout.However the Artisan/Miner dependency is a dependency on the base item that crafters need to craft. For the most part the creature resource amounts are small. However the mined resource is huge. Now consider that miner had no content. What do you have?
Basically you have a 10 inch pipe funneling into a 1 inch pipe. It wont hold. And by nature people are self serving. Those very few that go into mining the majority will gouge because of demand.
To an extentthe same outcome can be reproduced by the dependancy of combat professions on Medic. Your example is only valid if Miner was mutually exclusive. This includes Miner requiring such a large skill prerequisite that no other elite professions could be mastered (eg. Bounty Hunter).However, since Miner in beta wasn't mutually exclusive your example is irrelevant.
If there was a Miner profession elite crafters would most likely have a template consisting of: some Artisan, master elite crafting, some or master Miner, some or master Merchant. What's wrong with that? Oh gee, they can't be master elite crafters and master combat. I'd like to make all my own weapons as a pure combat template as well but that's not how the game was designed or meant to be played. There might actually be more interdependancy between players. That might be a horrific thingfor a MMPORG 
.
The cause of oligopolies on Valcyn and other servers has already been addressed. So has the new crafter issue. Please reread the relevant posts in this forum and others if you want to understand the issue before misuing the argument.
Scoooter wrote:
One was just in our forums.
About 7 successful (huge WS's).
However the cornering of the markets in our galaxy does not consist of useing 100's of hervesters themselves,
The markest that are being monopolized what they do when a really good resource comes up is offer to miners and scouts a price that is above what it is worth (because they have huge sums of money) and actually corner the majority of the resource mined and harvested.
Now certs will just make it worse because the person wnating to break into a market cannot. Because when a resource comes up good they will not be able to get their own at all because it is all being bought out at prices they cannot afford.
Why are there empty vendors? Because a lot of players have silently left the game
Srednii wrote:
You know, people go on about monopolies, and how small groups can dominate the markets. But I just don't see it.
Why are there all the empty vendors if it's so easy to produce a thousand of any item? Why is it so hard to find stocked shops?
Tortila's weapons wasn't successfull because he had a monopoly, but because he was a stable crafter who's shop was in the same spot for a long time, and because he always had stock (expensive stock). If you got sick of wandering from empty vendor to empty vendor you could go to tortilla's and buy what you want for a little more.
It's not cause he had a monopoly, but because there are very few dedicated crafters who last more then a few months. And it's almost unheard of for a crafter to keep a well stocked shop.
(oh and the most composite breast plates that can be made in a single run is 249. 1000 is quite out of reach.)
. A lot of crafters got sick of low returns and the cost of restocking/crafting no longer justified the time required to do so.
Srednii wrote:
Certs exclude all the people who's skill set is already finished. All the people who have their character set up the way they want it and don't want to spend those extra skill points for artisan and survey 4.
Bugbait replied:
Thank you for admitting that
ooo, butit's just a coincidence that the pro cert crowd are all artisans then eh? No bias.
Of course I'm part Artisan, the Survey tree is extremely useful. I also make and sell powerups and repair tools. I'm also a Master Doctor. Every Weaponsmith, Droid Engineer, Armoursmith, and Architect is also an Artisan. What point are you trying to make?
I can just imagine all the hardcore scout players (all 3 of them?) agitating for certs to use shuttle's. "Anyone can spend the sp to get the certs!" No bias at all there.
If you have a good argument forlinking Scout toshuttle based travel then present it. Remember, the argument has always been that everyone should get personal harvesters so everyone can still harvest at a basic level. The certification argument to an extenthas beenbased around paying or sacrificing skill points for increased harvesting efficiency. Applying this to Scouts and shuttles I would have no problem with Scouts + whatever skill set getting cheaper and faster (ie. Sub 5 and 10 minute wait times) travel.
Kinda like the crowd of artisans (all 3 of you?) agitating for mining certs in artisan. Maby it's time you all picked an elite class to play and relegate artisan to what it's meant to be. A stepping stone to bigger and better things, not your main career choice.
I have an elite crafter. I work closely with many elite crafters. I supply bulk resources to elite crafters. Once again, what point are you trying to make?
Miner is in the game, it's an intangible class that anyone can pick up without spending skill points. They have to spend time and effort aquiring all their harvs, trading for lots, gathering friends. And the pro cert crowd wants to take that ability away from everyone else so that they can own the market without any competition beyond the few other people who have artisan skills. Knowing full well most people won't be willing to spend skill points in artisan thereby wrecking their FOTM combo.
Nope, you've missed the point of the argument and returned to propaganda again. Stick to making and countering the arguments at hand, not rehashing the same, tired, irrelevant statements please. I've providedreal examples of how adaptable people can be when given the right motivations (defence stacking and someone else used Jedi but hologrinding is self explanatory). You have provided no examples of why you think players are rigid. Your argument as it currently stands is purely conjecture.
Bugbait wrote:
Scoooter wrote:
To show grapically why miner was removed everyone go through this exersize
Take a piece of paper.
Make a row of boxes containing all professions
Make a second row of boxes containing crafting professions
Make an arrow between the professions and crafting professions for what that character might need or want in goods or services. That denotes the depenncies.
Now that is the current dependency tree (simplified).
Now make a third row containing the resource gatheres..Ranger/Scout and Artisan/Miner
You will see that you now have tripple deep dependencies on miner, some on scout.However the Artisan/Miner dependency is a dependency on the base item that crafters need to craft. For the most part the creature resource amounts are small. However the mined resource is huge. Now consider that miner had no content. What do you have?
Basically you have a 10 inch pipe funneling into a 1 inch pipe. It wont hold. And by nature people are self serving. Those very few that go into mining the majority will gouge because of demand.
To an extentthe same outcome can be reproduced by the dependancy of combat professions on Medic. Your example is only valid if Miner was mutually exclusive. This includes Miner requiring such a large skill prerequisite that no other elite professions could be mastered (eg. Bounty Hunter).However, since Miner in beta wasn't mutually exclusive your example is irrelevant.
If there was a Miner profession elite crafters would most likely have a template consisting of: some Artisan, master elite crafting, some or master Miner, some or master Merchant. What's wrong with that? Oh gee, they can't be master elite crafters and master combat. I'd like to make all my own weapons as a pure combat template as well but that's not how the game was designed or meant to be played. There might actually be more interdependancy between players. That might be a horrific thingfor a MMPORG
To an extentthe same outcome can be reproduced by the dependancy of combat professions on Medic
Thats a reach, a combat type can take the novice box in medic and get 80% of the healing requirementsthey will need. Dependencies are good. But not when it is nested so deep that all crafter depend on one profession to get 90% of what they need.
The miner profession as proposed will basically eliminate many crafters that choose not to have 2-3 accounts. Lets face it you will be forcing all elite crafters to change their templates in such a way to remove content from themselves and add none. What about the crafters not based off the artisan tree? They won't have the points to do that. It is already bad enough thet the market for medical resource is considered a niche resource and the vast majority of the resource vendors don't even bother with it.
No one said dependencies are bad (this is a MMPORG). Too much dependency is bad. People need to have fun.
Message Edited by Scoooter on 06-28-2004 09:44 AM
Bugbait wrote:
The cause of oligopolies on Valcyn and other servers has already been addressed. So has the new crafter issue. Please reread the relevant posts in this forum and others if you want to understand the issue before misuing the argument.
Scoooter wrote:
One was just in our forums.
About 7 successful (huge WS's).
However the cornering of the markets in our galaxy does not consist of useing 100's of hervesters themselves,
The markest that are being monopolized what they do when a really good resource comes up is offer to miners and scouts a price that is above what it is worth (because they have huge sums of money) and actually corner the majority of the resource mined and harvested.
Now certs will just make it worse because the person wnating to break into a market cannot. Because when a resource comes up good they will not be able to get their own at all because it is all being bought out at prices they cannot afford.
Well I have read them and their relavence is in questions.
Your trolling and slamming of people just shows one thing. Lack of facts.
Heck we all do not have true statistics to base the arguments on. But we do have past action and the facts of whet we see in the game today.
The argument has been given about this is to add content. What content is that?
Basically what it boils down to this. Currently planting and running harvesters is a non skill based action. It has a great effect on the economies of all servers. The pro-cert crowd now wants to make it a skill based action. Basically you need to prof with facts and not speculation that it would not be a detrement. You have brought no facts to the table.
BiancaMinola wrote:
Srednii wrote:
So why shouldn't everyone be allowed to make money off mining?
Certs exclude NOONE from mining. Anyone would have the capability to spend their points on the skillset, unless they choose to spend them elsewhere.
Bianca Minola
They do exclude people from mining enough and most probably will have to alter their template and remove them from content that exists in the game
Korlan wrote:
Scoooter wrote:
It is also about the fact that is it a novice profession like artisan should not be a big money maker. The game is not designed that way.
I think you are totally wrong on this aspect. I'm a Master Artisan and have been for a long time, way before bikes. I make money just fine. Hell when I was just a Master Marksman I was still making a killing... so I say you are wrong here.
Your idea of "elite = big moeny" is off. BESIDES, the devs have also stated that they had NO idea how the player market would turn out, hence they did not go out of their way to make noivce profession not worth the time and effort people put into them.
Hell, all you need is just one Solo group and you can make a killing in a hour. hell Running "novice" missions can even earn you a nice bit.
Getting back on topic:
The whole point of certing harvestors in mine mind (and this is just me) is meant to bring CONTENT to this profession. IF harvestors were certed to 0004 of the artisan treee, it would force the non-crafting professions to SPEND skill points in order to place harvestors. If this was to happen I would be cool with that, in fact i think it would turn most people off as they would rather not spend the skill points on said craft.
What content? Ohhyou can drop a harvester for 5 days not even having to go back to it and you can't. And you canmake millions on your vendor. Cool content!!!
You don't spend skill points to use a cl10 pet or a droid do you? There are just some things deemed necessary to be available to all without the use of skill points. With the removal of miner harvesters were one.
And as you have stated.. artisan is easy to master... so mastering just one branch should even be easier.
Tell that to the crafters not based off the artisan tree that must master a basic profession first.
I also look at it this way... I can't pick up a flame thrower and use it like a Cammando... SO... why should a combat base profession be able to place a harvestor and get the same results as me?
Because with the removal of miner harvesters were not required to have a skill pre-requisite because they are automated installations. The ability to find resource does not imply the ability to mine resource.
Scoooter wrote:
Well I have read them and their relavence is in questions.
Your trolling and slamming of people just shows one thing. Lack of facts.
Heck we all do not have true statistics to base the arguments on. But we do have past action and the facts of whet we see in the game today.
The argument has been given about this is to add content. What content is that?
Basically what it boils down to this. Currently planting and running harvesters is a non skill based action. It has a great effect on the economies of all servers. The pro-cert crowd now wants to make it a skill based action. Basically you need to prof with facts and not speculation that it would not be a detrement. You have brought no facts to the table.
Trolling? Slamming of people? Lack of facts? Think you're replying to your reflection in a mirror here. I've supplied real game figures as examples. I've asked you and others for the same thing but have received no responses. Who's avoiding the facts here? You claim that resource resellers are gouging the current elite crafting market yet have failed to supply any figures or facts even though you've been asked repeatedly. You keep playing the lack of statistics card even when some, real game figures are presented to you.
Once again, you mention past actions yet have failed to provide any examples. Where are your facts? "Our" side has supplied clear examples of how players are willing and able to adjust their templates when given proper incentives, ie. Defence caps and hologrinding.
If these aren't facts then how aboutproviding examples ofwhat you consider "facts"? If you continue to blindly refuse to address the arguments and facts presented already then there's really no point in continuingthe "debate" since none of our arguments are actually being countered.
Scoooter wrote:
No its not thatbasic professions should not be able to make money, they should. It's just to what degree.
Bugbait replied:
I and several others have never disagreeed with this point. Of course elite crafters should have a greater profit margin. Facts were supplied in the form of real game numbers. This is not a contested issue.
The resource business monopolized will make artisans millions in no time at all and that is not what is right.
Strange that you keep throwing out blanket statements like this considering you've been the most vocal about the lack of statistics to support this on either side. By it's very definition there cannot be a monoply when a significant proportion of the player base (crafting atleast) are able to harvest.
Basic combat professions because of their skill level typically cannot run high credit missions.
One thing also to remember is that the combat rebalance is coming. Why is that important? Because the creatures were nerfed in December because the combat rebalance was supposed to be in January or Febuary. So the days of solo grouping and making millions quickly for combat toons will come to an end. Just as the holo grind is coming to an end causing an end to the crap resource market. So when you argue about how much combat professions can make remember what is coming down the pike.
Atleast we agree on this section