Artisan Archive
Thread: So you want to cert harvs? Fine. Here's a proposal you won't like...
ThothTheWise
Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:41 pm
#131
One of the reasons that there are small groups "dominating" in fields is two fold;
1) usually (my server is alot lower in population than it has been in the past) the over all DEMAND is down.
2) a single crafter can produce a run of 1k items.
so if that UBER master WS couldnt make 1k T21s (or what ever the hot weapon is.....or a master AS couldnt make 1k composite breast plates in a single run....the market share avaliable would increase dramtically.
By doing that the very real potential exsists for the over all demand of resources in huge quantities MIGHT lower as well.
And the last thing i would like people to consider is this. Those of us who are already established Monetarily, play 10+ hours daily, and have 2 to 4 accounts like myself will always out perfom the middle majority. Miners as a whole (the most sucessful ones) put a HUGE deal of time into doing what we do. That wont change no matter how you bake the system. If Lot trades are gone no matter what rules set I'm given I SHOULD still outperform the masses simply because of the time i have avaliable ...not to mention experience and now Vast amounts of wealth.
Just make sure that the casual gamers do not get bowled over simply because there are a few of us with no brains who play this so vicariously as to apparently strike fear into the rest ofthe populations as a whole because of out Supposed strangle hold on a part of the game.
joined42904
Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:58 pm
#132
Thoth,
I would support any change you propose to make factory runs that aren't of subcomponents much more limited...say 100 or so. This would mean that they'd have to run 10 schematics if they want 1000 items.
Currently, there is no limit to the number of factories that can be run by one person due to admin. This is also part of the problem. If you limited the total factories a person could have "manufacturing objects" to 2 or 3 I think you would make a dent in the oligopolies too.
So would making sure that a person has access to a given schematic before they can use it in a factory run. And checking at the time they put it in the factory.
I don't object in your getting the same return from your time invested as I do as a more casual gamer. I don't want to make any of your accounts less than fully functional. I do however want dyseconomies of scale.
Srednii
Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:02 pm
#133
You know, people go on about monopolies, and how small groups can dominate the markets. But I just don't see it.
Why are there all the empty vendors if it's so easy to produce a thousand of any item? Why is it so hard to find stocked shops?
Tortila's weapons wasn't successfull because he had a monopoly, but because he was a stable crafter who's shop was in the same spot for a long time, and because he always had stock (expensive stock). If you got sick of wandering from empty vendor to empty vendor you could go to tortilla's and buy what you want for a little more.
It's not cause he had a monopoly, but because there are very few dedicated crafters who last more then a few months. And it's almost unheard of for a crafter to keep a well stocked shop.
(oh and the most composite breast plates that can be made in a single run is 249. 1000 is quite out of reach.)
ThothTheWise
Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:30 pm
#134
Yea I know =)
Sorry but for a while i really shouldn't respond ..I'm not thinking as clearly as i will later tonight...and thinking day in and day out about this game and how it functions has placed me this morning into quite the funk.
My apologies.
Velisimner
Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:04 pm
#135
Combat profs do not deserve the ability to pull up as much resources as a Surveyor. certs should be implemented and they do it in a way so that crafters would be able to mine for themseleves. combat profs gouge ppl on rare lotts, some that crafters need, and they gouge on resource, crafters need these.
I consider myself to be a miner i know the costs and in and outs of mining, most combat profs do not im sure. also they dont have to work to find the spot to put down the harvs, this parasitic relationship must end. i do not gouge on resources whether they be 1000oq it all costs the same for me to pull up.
combat profs as far as i know can make lots of money doing missions, miners can make money harvesting resources. alot of crafters are a crafting prof/MA/merchant THEY CANNOT COMBAT!!! these types are screwed if a swarm of giant dalydrakes is near their harvesters. all i am saying is that the devs do not need to take away everyones ability to mine, just the ability to mine as much as a someone with surveying IV. its like i cant do a combat mission for 40k so you shouldnt be able to make as much as me mining resources.
again i feel that x-server lot trading should be stopped. and that certs need to be implemented some how.
Srednii
Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:31 pm
#136
Combat proffs make lots of money off combat, just like crafting proffs make lots of money off crafting.
So why shouldn't everyone be allowed to make money off mining?
BiancaMinola
Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:12 pm
#137
Srednii wrote:
So why shouldn't everyone be allowed to make money off mining?
Certs exclude NOONE from mining. Anyone would have the capability to spend their points on the skillset, unless they choose to spend them elsewhere.
Bianca Minola
Srednii
Fri Jun 25, 2004 10:14 pm
#138
Certs exclude all the people who's skill set is already finished. All the people who have their character set up the way they want it and don't want to spend those extra skill points for artisan and survey 4.
ooo, butit's just a coincidence that the pro cert crowd are all artisans then eh? No bias.
I can just imagine all the hardcore scout players (all 3 of them?) agitating for certs to use shuttle's. "Anyone can spend the sp to get the certs!" No bias at all there.
Kinda like the crowd of artisans (all 3 of you?) agitating for mining certs in artisan. Maby it's time you all picked an elite class to play and relegate artisan to what it's meant to be. A stepping stone to bigger and better things, not your main career choice.
Miner is in the game, it's an intangible class that anyone can pick up without spending skill points. They have to spend time and effort aquiring all their harvs, trading for lots, gathering friends. And the pro cert crowd wants to take that ability away from everyone else so that they can own the market without any competition beyond the few other people who have artisan skills. Knowing full well most people won't be willing to spend skill points in artisan thereby wrecking their FOTM combo.
BiancaMinola
Fri Jun 25, 2004 10:43 pm
#139
First of all, I'm beginning to get sick of the personal attacks.
I have leveled every singleprofession in this game (except jedi) to master level. Your 'profession' argument is ridiculous.
I am engaged in this debate, not because I am greedy, but because I have been arguing actively in the forums for an interesting economic game for over 2 years.
Just because I know there are doubters, do a google search "Bianca Minola Holocron". You will get one result. On that page is an economic post entitled 'it's about the economy, stupid' that was saved in an archive ofpre-live dev responses.(which isn't exactly relevant - we had very little concrete info at that point) proving my interest in this Economy over 26 Months ago. Pre-beta a year and a half before the game went live. I have followed every economic related post since well before then. And continue to this day.
IF there arejust 3 of us left who care about an interesting economy - it is only because the thousands of folks who followed this game through it's development process have given up on it.
Noone has yet answered my challenge of "Where is the economic game?"
Your points have all been refuted, except for the thing about scouts and shuttles. I see no connection, it's a Red Herring.
Bianca Minola
Scoooter
Sat Jun 26, 2004 12:42 am
#141
joined42904 wrote:
Scooter,
You ask if I am an elite crafter.
Please just check my signature. You will find your answer there.
I don't change my mind about something just because I might start to benefit from mining consortia.
How many weaponsmiths do you purchase weapons from with your combat character? How many successful weaponsmiths are there in your galaxy?
Do me a favor... Post in your server forum a question of who are the best weaponsmiths. See how many different names you get in response with something other than "I think this person is the best because he/she makes free weapons for our guild." Someone just did that in our galaxy forum.
Now...after doing that please explain why you think the weaponsmith market is oligopolistic or why you think it is not. (You may repeat the process for pharmaceutical goods if you like. Of course you may be a Cronon or a Lexy of your own galaxy for all I know.)
One was just in our forums.
About 7 successful (huge WS's).
However the cornering of the markets in our galaxy does not consist of useing 100's of hervesters themselves,
The markest that are being monopolized what they do when a really good resource comes up is offer to miners and scouts a price that is above what it is worth (because they have huge sums of money) and actually corner the majority of the resource mined and harvested.
Now certs will just make it worse because the person wnating to break into a market cannot. Because when a resource comes up good they will not be able to get their own at all because it is all being bought out at prices they cannot afford.
Giamai
Sat Jun 26, 2004 3:43 am
#142
Bianca,
being against harvester certifications is not the same as having no interest in the economy. the arguments on both sides of theharvester certification debateare attempting to show their interest through different interpretations of the current economic situation in the game and the potential effects that implementing harvester certifications will have.
that is the nature ofany debate. debates degrade significantly with personal attacks and generalizations such as that. just ask sinist 
Srednii
Sat Jun 26, 2004 1:05 pm
#143
oh please, there were no personal attacks in the previous post. Bianca was just obfuscating and using the complaint of personal attacks to discredit me. Hence the golf clap.
A personal attack would have been something like... oh... "Bianca you bitter has been. Quit or play, but quit your endless whining. Go play stockbroker online if you're so worried about "the economic game" whatever the hell that is."
NOTE! : that was not a personal attack, that was merely an example of what a personal attack would be like. 