Artisan Archive

Message Edited by Srednii on 06-28-2004 04:04 PM

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Srednii wrote:

Lets see if I can sum up the arguments the pro cert crowd has been left with after we have refuted all the rest.

The economic game sucks and is broken. <--- wth? what economic game would that be? how is it broken? This is one of those opinion arguments that it's impossible to counter, or prove.

Bugbait replied:

It's impossible to prove without everyone having abase level of understanding of economic theory. That's why I didn't bother continuing on that line of argument. Probably why StGabriel came to his senses and dropped the argument as well. The theory was never countered so to speak, it's just that too many people simply didn't understand the arguments. Quite happy to concede that it cannot be "proven" given the limitations of the forum audience.

The game lacks balance. <--- and another opinion argument. Sorry but the opinions of a small handfull of people isn't enough to get the rest of us nerfed.

The game does lack balance but once again, can't be proved either way due to lack of relevant statistics from SOE.

Complaints that combat types shouldn't be able to mine because they havn't spent any skill points in mining have been countered by the fact that nobody spends skill points in mining.

This was not countered at all. There were opinions offered from both sides with no clear conclusion since the majority refused to tackle the problem from a non-self centered perspective. The fact that no one spends skill points on mining is not a "winning" argument. The fact that the mining profession was removed before release is not a wining argument. The decision of the game desiginers is not a wining argument. The last 3 arguments were all addressed from both sides.

Complaints that combat types shouldn't be able to make money selling resources because they can make money on missions have been countered by the fact that so can artisans.

You've distorted the argument. The real argument was that combat types should not be able to make the same amount of money without expending skill points. If combat types spent the required skill points they should and would be able to harvest with the same efficiency. Once again, opinions both ways but not conclusively countered as you put it.

Complaints of some mysterious resource glut have been countered by pointing out that even grind resources make a profit, even with half the server mining them (glut would imply prices lower then costs), and that resources that are actually high quality and are used in quality mining are often priced fairly high in shift, and that as time goes by those resources sell for huge amounts. Any resource glut is in the mind of some whiners who're annoyed they can't totally rape people while selling grind materials.

A glut does not imply sale prices being lower than cost. People would stop mining before that occured or more likely wouldn't sell at all. Your logic on grind materials still making a profit is dependant on the assumption that thebulk of materials harvested are being sold immediately. If materials are being stockpiled and thus supply is being artificially and intentionally controlled or restricted then that could account for the "fix" on prices.

High quality, in shift resources are being priced fairly high? Examples please. The anti-cert crowd continually use words like "high", "greed", and "gouging" yet never back their assertions with numbers. Why is this? The pro-cert crowd have supplied numbers. Give me the numbers you use to conclude that the high quality resoruces are being priced high.

Good, rare resources selling for huge amounts? Don't blame the harvesters, blame the planning and demands of the elite crafters. Actually, blame the end consumers. It's a simple supply and demand economy. If consumers were not willing to spend big dollars on consumables then the elite crafters would not be able to charge as much as they do. If the elite crafters were not making huge profits then they wouldn't and couldn't pay the large amounts for the rarer resources. If anything the blame should fall on the end consumer since they ultimately determine the profit margins for the crafters and in turn the resource suppliers.

If you want to use the greed argument then back it up with numbers not your continual conjecture. I've supplied the numbers which no one has even attempted to refute. As it stands currently the greed token is squarely in the lap of the anti-cert crowd since they've offered no numerical counter arguments to date.

Were there any other arguments the pro cert side had? I'll confess I've probably forgotten a few of the more laughable arguments.

Beats me, couldn't be bothered to check. There are plenty of counter arguments from the pro-cert crowd for claims made by the anti-cert crowd that stand uncontested. Here's a few:

• Claims that cert's would result in people leaving the game: No evidence on this for either side so a largely empty argument.


• Claims that cert's would cause the price of resources to skyrocket: Purely economic theory on either sideso hard to prove.


• Claims that elite crafters would be at the mercy of Artisans:Evidence of player elasticity supplied by the pro-certcamp in the form of hologrinding and the shift in professions over time.Probablyeasily supported by Astromech stat's if we could be bothered to dig through it all. Only conjecture and scare propoganda supplied by the anti-cert crowd to date. Look at the proliferation of Rifleman and TKA's on every server. Why? Because they are generally considered powerful professions. The majority of players will generally gravitate to templates that are most suitable to their play style and provide the most "bang-for-buck". If harvesting was rebalanced in some way the same would occur. Current player behaviour is evidence of this.


• Claims that combatants wouldn't be able to buy anything: Supply and demand. Goods will always equilize at a price point that suits the suppliersand consumers. There are no if's or but's in regards to this. There is no market without transactions in some form or another. Would make for a very stale and dull game otherwise.

edit: ooo! lol, How could I forget the monopoly argument?!?!? Whining about how being able to mine enough resources to get by means that 1 crafter will dominate the server and form a monopoly! Refuted by the fact that there are no monopolies (well maby some of the ghost town servers have a monopoly or two, but that's cause nobody plays on them).

Where did you get this argument from? The anti-cert crowd are the ones that claim Artisans would monopolise the market. Are you referring to current oligopolies maybe? There was argument from the pro-cert camp that certifications might help break the oligopolies. I was one of the supporters of such a theory. Then again, we're in the realm of economic theory againand we both know it's hard to prove either way.

Refuted by the fact there are no monopolies? Of course, since the pro-cert camp have been talking about oligopolies not monopolies. There have been plenty of examples supplied for the existance of oligopolies.

And I see you talking about oligopolies now bugbait? Which is just an alteration of the monopoly argument. The argument was laughable when it was 1 person supposedly dominating the server, and it's laughable when it's about a supposed shadowy small group of crafters dominating the server.

Not at all. Let's look at the definition of an oligopoly in a broad or basic sense:

• Few dominant competitors in the segment. Their market share and interdependance is such that any charges in pricing of one will likely affect the other. Recently there were some very heated threads on the Valcyn boards about weaponsmith pricing. More than enough evidence enough to support this point.


• High barriers to entry. There's a wealth of evidence for this on the Valcyn boards as well. New elite crafters often complain about the need for large stockpiles of cash to buy older, perceived competitive resources in order to break into and remain competitive in the market.

I doubt Valcyn is alone in this. I'm confident that ever server could make a list of perceived dominantelite crafters in each field. Laughable? The evidence is plain as day on the Valcyn boards. Go have a look some time. There have been a wealth of threads about the "best" crafters on the server. Take those names and dig a little deeper and you'll find that most of the crafters are proud about their status on the server asreputable and arguably dominant crafters/suppliers.When someone asks for a list of the best crafters you'll see the same handful of names every time without fail. The presence of oligopolies is very real.

Let me guess, still not enough evidence even when there are pages of forum threads right in front of your face?

The monopoly (or oligopolies) argument is one of the more laughable arguments.I might as wellargue that THE BOOGYMAN! is coming for anyone who supports certing harvs, as give the monopoly argument any weight.

Back to my opening point, too many people simply don't have an adequate grasp of the economic theory involved. I'm not a mechanic so I don't argue about the intricacies of car maintenance and performance. If you don't understand the arguments (evidenced above) then don't mock them, it just makes you look foolish.

Once again we reach astalemate (beating a dead horse) since we're not participating in the same argument. Please continue to blow your "countered" trumpet all you like from now on. Proof once again that attempting to debate on the Internet is like competing in the Special Olympics. Win or loose you're still retarded. Refreshing!

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EDIT: Double post. Love the lag bubbles at work.

Message Edited by Bugbait on 06-29-2004 01:07 PM

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khamafeu wrote:

After all this let me ask you crafters something, How can a serious crafter wanting a shop and having to go into mining cope with 10 slots? I think the answer is He cannot!

Bugbait replied:

News flash, it's a MMPORG so player interaction and interdependancy is encouraged. Yes, an elite crafter can do everythng themselves but it's probably far more efficient if they get others to help them. That's the underlying appeal of an MMPORG is it not?

Let's go with a medium house for a shop, a medium house for him = 4 slots

2 Factories,I'd say bare minimum and not for the seriously inclined crafter... = 2 Slots ( Disregarding Structurals here... )

= 6 Slots

And you have 4 slots to extract suff... woop!

Doable but not efficient. Once again, player interdependance is a good thing.

so now you have to get everyone to put down personals... Good luck.

Or you could buy from professional, dedicated (ie. Spent skill points) miners. Seems the anti-cert crowd are too entrenched in the one man show mentality. A lot of the arguments returned seem to revolve around loosing the ability to be effectively self sufficient. Would this be accurate?

Harvesters not beeing certified provides a dependency that runs against the flow, an argument was made here about dependency relations, mining provides a counterbalance. The way slots are set-up the idea seems to be crafters do not extract what they use. At least not with one character... Maybe a tailor can but WS and AS at least cannot at all... too many specifics, too many clients...

Arianrhod

If a WS, AS or any elite crafteris selling more than they can supply then they should be happy. Higher demand relative to supply means the seller/crafter has the pricing advantage. This means bigger profits for the crafter so how is this a bad thing?

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