Armorsmith Archive
Thread: Advanced Layer Primus nerfed with v. 120884?
CaileSathinor wrote:
....
Some background:
Primus layers were found to have great returns and very little drawbacks, their effectiveness as a whole was reduced. At a master combat profession, the mitigation abilities of the profession as a whole when applied to armor remove any and all penalties the armor will produce. Both of these are an inherent problem. The first is an unneccessary removal of a valuable resource for the profession while the second removes the ability for any armor to be distinguishable beyond "straight up resistances." The following proposal addresses both concerns with a single possible solution.
The Solution(tm):
Return Primus layers to their original effectiveness. As Blixtev has stated, hinderance is undesirable as an experimented stat. Very well, I'll accept this. Looking at how complexity works as you experiment on a schematic, each time you push the "Run experiment" button, the complexity of the schematic increases by X amount. Apply this same theory to all layers, depending on their relative power. As layer "power" increases, with Primus being the relative "top," the amount you increase protection by will ad a fixed, unexperimentable (obviously) hinderance value to the layer, not to exceed (say 5% to each hinderance in the case of Primus layers). Layer hinderances WILL stack with each other, so quadruple layered primus could have as high as an added +20% to each hinderance.
What this will do:
First off, it will still allow Primus (and other layers) to retain their original power. Secondly, Layers will truly become an option for armor, as the hinderances on the final product will not be completely mitigated away by master level combat professions.
Commentses?
Message Edited by CaileSathinor on 04-24-2005 10:14 PM
well can we get information on looted layer's and enhancers if it is possible for say shards to reduce encumberence then by all mean's put encumberence on the layers, but if there is no realistic way to remove the hindrance while still having the negatives, remember your elemental resist's do drop as you add up the primus layers.
Leave the primus layers as they were before the upgrade where as you increase the strength of it the elemental's drop, but on single resist layers make it so that it is possible to cut away the negatives.
Take this example
Kinetic layers with with resources that equal a 24% on 2 lines(yes this is our main need) it would be -76energy + 24kinetic(much the same as shipwright currently is) now you can choose ot experiment as you will as is the system in place in theory you should be able to get +90ish kinetic -50energy on a 12pt double amazing. This way the game does not become a zero sum but will still retain some of the artistry and give 12pt's some meaning.
Now this would only apply to single resist layers be it kinetic/energy/heat..... the mutli effect layers would have a given
Also the current exponential curve(%resist per point)is so wrong, the curve should be kind of like a paraboloa on it's side yes it does curve off but not on such drastic point that the extra's we put in from layer's means very little, if we have to expend our resources it should come with a reward that is beneficial, as it currently stand's to put layers in suit's your looking at double/tripple the cost of an unlayered suit with little or no noticeable rewards, sure your numbers are higher but in the end that mean's very little with an exponential curve that levels off so early. my original estimates of 8000+ resist would equate to 75%resist's.
As the dev's have said they want different armour used at different level's i can tell you now that a 8000+resist would not be used by a novice it would be master only armour and should convey the difference, if current system goes as planned you'll be able to get away with mid level resists of medium tier armour without much of a decrease in protection. If the line can not be linear for the level of protection then it must be at least effective to be worth using advanced armour.
Also i have yet to see a point made by anyone other than a short sighted dev's who say players were invulnerable topve.
Also origianlly we were under the impression the armour qualities would go in the order of assault/battle/recon but instead of this we have them all on an equal level just with resists +-1000 of battle on the energy kinetic.
I know it's a long winded post but there must be a decent resist level between advanced and non advanced armour, simply increasing the number 2000pt's but getting 5%extra protection does not fit the bill.
Okay so Layers aren't uber anymore, but they still have a small advanatage. Possibly not enough to warrent the extra 100-200k per suit tho. Cut the resources needed for the layers in half and it suddenly becomes far more reasonable that a customer would want to pay the extra for them.
TitanTen wrote:
JeCy wrote:
Blixtev wrote:
Again the problem between old/new systems was the "requirement" of layers to sell armor. Those massively layered suits in the old system "should" have caused major penalties on the wearer. Due to the power of Doctor buffs this never happened. Before the prevalence of Doctor buffs smiths did not make suits like this as they just caused so severe a HAM cost. Since the downside was mitigated by buffs and Brandy there was no reason not to get as much protection as you could and ignore the HAM cost. Had those layers made the armor difficult to wear in any way I would guess that layering wouldn't have become a requirement.
People have been saying this forever and there was a super simple soultion.. NERF SECONDARY BUFFS.. I fight all the time with no doc buffs and have been for over a year.. I use food to increase my ham.. a slight secondary boost..soo i can regen on rest. and i dontdrainmy pools super fast I get more haelthwith pixey.. Like say some won won, acc, brandy, pixey and some random food..like snow or synth or something this doesnt turn me into superman yet i can go out and have lots of fun and specials, heals and things all need to be thought about not just spam head torso 3 cause it does the most damage.... along with sacrificing on protection to lighten my armor.. or using a lower damage gun that doesnt kill my ham..
you never would ahve had people wearing 90% comp cuase no one could wear it.. not even humans and if they did.. they would have killed themselves using specials faster than they took damage. or would have needed 2 docs on him healing just to tank. the old system was not perfect but if tweaked it would have been..
You still would have had triple layer comp.. and people would ahve used layers but we would have made um lighter.. i was one of the few that made triple layer comp with 400 ham before slice.. i was also the only smith making triple layer comp that a trando could wear with out slicing. yes i had to sacrifice points in protection but it was still decent armor.. like around 50%.. in all protections. There was also a choice. do i take comp at 50% in all.. or do i grab chitin at 60% kin.. but low energy.. or do i use some nice bone with high energy but low kin.. everything was a trade off.. BEFORE superman buffs
You had the best system ever.. why didnt you just try removing secondary doc buffs first and saw what happened before you got into to this way way way over compliacted CU and have taken away good combat options for low lvl players.. My time of even killing low lvl spawns for harvesters is done.. i dont think i could even take out a small group of maulers anymore.. You made elite's even more elite...
btw why is it a elite combat person in a group riding a bike takes 1/4 the damage as a non combatant solo.. when they are not using zero skills.. and have the added bonus of wearing armor to reduce it even further.. even there damage mitigation works.. when they are using ZERO combat skills.. Seams way unfair.. from a non combatants point of veiw.. Hmm maybe there dodge is wiggling in there seat??
Je'Cy
Yay someone else gets it. It really IS this simple Blixtev. You may not see it. But it is. I actually feel sorry for you. You get brought into a system someone else developed and are told it is what ruined the game and to fix it. Well you were told wrong.
/sign
Blixtev wrote:
Unfortunately Mcgreag both these options were not implementable for various reasons.Changing the balance of weapons(as most weapons do not have elemental) would make those weapons that did have elemental damage "the best" weapons to use. Dropping elemental protections for everyone would again have made "the best" weapon again a possible scenario. Most worrysome would be weapons like the flamethrower, launcher pistol etc.
Blixtev wrote:
Right now this isnt true, increasing the protection only decreases the elementals. However how would adding a specific amount of Hindrance that can be experimented towards 0 on the layers only? This would enable me to raise the protections back up to 1200or higher to compensate. Something like a baseline of 4-5% hindrance on the layer only that is only experimentable there that carries up to the final combine.
Kalandra wrote:
This concept of a free 1200 points isn't exactly correct. When you increase the protection stats in the primus layers, you also increase the hindrance values
Bad idee, here is why :
This would make a breach in the balancing of combat. You can stack hindrance reduction with profession, so, for example if I m a master rifleman, master pistoleer, I got so many hindrance reduction (enough to wear 2 complete average armor on top of each other) that I can order a reconnaissance armor to a Armorsmith and tell him to completly go for resistance and to not care about the hindrance at all.
I will have no hindrance at all will wearing my super armor.
Pahaddino wrote:
Blixtev wrote:Right now this isnt true, increasing the protection only decreases the elementals. However how would adding a specific amount of Hindrance that can be experimented towards 0 on the layers only? This would enable me to raise the protections back up to 1200 or higher to compensate. Something like a baseline of 4-5% hindrance on the layer only that is only experimentable there that carries up to the final combine.
Kalandra wrote:This concept of a free 1200 points isn't exactly correct. When you increase the protection stats in the primus layers, you also increase the hindrance valuesBad idee, here is why :
This would make a breach in the balancing of combat. You can stack hindrance reduction with profession, so, for example if I m a master rifleman, master pistoleer, I got so many hindrance reduction (enough to wear 2 complete average armor on top of each other) that I can order a reconnaissance armor to a Armorsmith and tell him to completly go for resistance and to not care about the hindrance at all.
I will have no hindrance at all will wearing my super armor.
It has been stated before that hindrance does not stack, it just takes the highest value (like the old mitigation did).
RelicOMO wrote:
You already have a situation where there is 'the best'weapon. It's actually even worse than it is right now, because most professions carry around 2-3 weapons or so - different damage types for PvE, and perhaps an extra one for PvP. With the removal of most damage types, and creature resistances being based on level rather than stats, there's actually only one best weapon for every profession, and that's the highest level weapon, because that will always have the best dps. A Jawa Ion rifle does the same damage type asa T21, but because it is a lower level weapon, it will always have a lower dps, no ifs ands or buts. A LVA used to do different damage than a vibro lance, so they had different uses, but now an LVA is a low level weapon, and a vibro lance is a high level weapon, so the lance always has higher dps - no reason to ever use an LVA.
This level-based system does absolutely nothing to change what is the 'best' weapon and the 'best' armour. Elemental damage is so small in comparison to main damage that there's no reason to gear armour to resist it, which is exactly why you reduced the Primus layers. Making weapon damage dependent on the level of the weapon ensures only that people will use the highest level weapon, rather than a variety of weapons.
Q.F.F.E.
Along with the horrid level-based damage system, the new damage type system and "level-scaling" of both weapons and armor are the worst things about the CURB. All this emphasis on character level and power as you progress in your template is just totally nonsensical in a profession-based game for which the game doesn't truly start until you complete your template.
Blixtev wrote:Mcgreag wrote:
The solutions I suggested was to either move a larger part of weapon damage into elemental or cut the elemental protection on a standard non layered suit in half making is so that layering for elemental might be come interesting and with diminishing returns this would most likely also balance out the primus layers at the same itme.Unfortunately Mcgreag both these options were not implementable for various reasons. Changing the balance of weapons(as most weapons do not have elemental) would make those weapons that did have elemental damage "the best" weapons to use. Dropping elemental protections for everyone would again have made "the best" weapon again a possible scenario. Most worrysome would be weapons like the flamethrower, launcher pistol etc.
Again the problem between old/new systems was the "requirement" of layers to sell armor. Those massively layered suits in the old system "should" have caused major penalties on the wearer. Due to the power of Doctor buffs this never happened. Before the prevalence of Doctor buffs smiths did not make suits like this as they just caused so severe a HAM cost. Since the downside was mitigated by buffs and Brandy there was no reason not to get as much protection as you could and ignore the HAM cost. Had those layers made the armor difficult to wear in any way I would guess that layering wouldn't have become a requirement.
I'm always all ears for suggestions, however "resource cost" and "factory time" is not enough of a drawback to make a free 1200 protection available. The ease at which harvesters can pull up a million resources in one resource shift puts a damper on most inorganic arguments.
But as it is now it's same but the other way around, there is no and will never be any reason to use an elemental weapon over a non elemental. The only thing that matters is total dps. If you removed elemental damage and just added it the min/max of the weapon it would be same weapon in 95% of all cases, and in the cases where it did matter it would be only change the damage by maybe 2-3% and half of the time the change would be negative.
Every player will own 2 weapons, one with the best energy dps and one with the best kinetic dps (and if the difference between these are more than perhaps 20% you will only own 1 weapon). There will never be a situation where a rifleman would use a Jawa instead of his T21. And why use a elemental pup? At best it might up the damage by 1-2% but in just as many cases it would lower the damage by the same amount.
As for armor layering you can just remove the elemental layers from our skill tree because I can not think of one situation when I would want to use them. Let's say I wanted to make an armor that protected me from stun batons, (energy/electrical damage) I could do this in 3 ways, energy layers, electrical layers, primus layers.
Now even with the nerfed primus layers using 12 of these for +500 energy -500 electrical will protect me more than using 12 electrical for +1000 electrical (I won't print out the the math here but it's easy enough to check). Using energy layers would be even better but then we introduce a weakness to kinetic.
Yes if you cut the elemental protection of an unlayered armor in half there are some master level weapons that would need to be changed a little bit but not much. Just maybe cut base damage by 10-15% or so. But with diminishing returns any change to elemental protection at that level would make more difference (I still think the primus layers in their nerfed state is still better than electrical so some more changes might be needed). Now add some inherent elemental protection/weakness to skins and we will hopefully end up in a situation where using an non master elemental weapon might be an interesting option. Need to do some math on that but it should be possible to balance out.
- Kinetic (starts at +30 and should be experimentable to +100 if you use perfect 1000/1000 ressources)
- Energy (starts at +30 and should be experimentable to +100 if you use perfect 1000/1000 ressources)
- Hindrance (starts at +5 and should be easily experimentable to 0)
This would add fun into crafting it as well as many different possibilitys without overpowering anything.
Please allways keep this post in mind:
Brutus_Krylop wrote:
If my general protection value on an advanced core is 6000, and if I use 12 +60 primus layers (adding 720 to the energy and kinetic values):
- Kinetic and energy protections in battle armor go up 3.3 percentile points.
- Kinetic protection in assault armor goes up by 2.6, while energy protection goes up 4.1
- Energy protection in reconaissance armor goes up by 2.6, while kinetic protection goes up 4.1
So, what you're saying is that, in order to slightly increase armor protection, we must also be willing to accept upwards of 60% additional hindrances?
Blixtev wrote:
Mcgreag wrote:
The solutions I suggested was to either move a larger part of weapon damage into elemental or cut the elemental protection on a standard non layered suit in half making is so that layering for elemental might be come interesting and with diminishing returns this would most likely also balance out the primus layers at the same itme.
Unfortunately Mcgreag both these options were not implementable for various reasons.Changing the balance of weapons(as most weapons do not have elemental) would make those weapons that did have elemental damage "the best" weapons to use. Dropping elemental protections for everyone would again have made "the best" weapon again a possible scenario. Most worrysome would be weapons like the flamethrower, launcher pistol etc.
Again the problem between old/new systems was the "requirement" of layers to sell armor. Those massively layered suits in the old system "should" have caused major penalties on the wearer. Due to the power of Doctor buffs this never happened. Before the prevalence of Doctor buffs smiths did not make suits like this as they just caused so severe a HAM cost. Since the downside was mitigated by buffs and Brandy there was no reason not to get as much protection as you could and ignore the HAM cost. Had those layers made the armor difficult to wear in any way I would guess that layering wouldn't have become a requirement.
I'm always all ears for suggestions, however "resource cost" and "factory time" is not enough of a drawback to make a free 1200 protection available. The ease at which harvesters can pull up a million resources in one resource shift puts a damper on most inorganic arguments.
How about adding additional special protection that is general
Base Damage Types: Kinetic and Energy
Opposing Types
enetrate, Disintegrate, Heat, Cold, and Electrical, Sonic
For most weapons Penetrate will be the standard. This would maybe deal with the layer issue better.
hmmm as a hardcore pvp'r the extra percentage or two of protection would be worth much. If it allows you to last a 1/10 of a sec longer then your opponent you win. So if they are only into high end combat they may spend the money (kinda like on live now when they buy 15-20 suits of composite so that they get the perfect effectiveness slice on each piece)
Brutus_Krylop wrote:
Blixtev wrote:
Again the problem between old/new systems was the "requirement" of layers to sell armor. Those massively layered suits in the old system "should" have caused major penalties on the wearer. Due to the power of Doctor buffs this never happened. Before the prevalence of Doctor buffs smiths did not make suits like this as they just caused so severe a HAM cost. Since the downside was mitigated by buffs and Brandy there was no reason not to get as much protection as you could and ignore the HAM cost. Had those layers made the armor difficult to wear in any way I would guess that layering wouldn't have become a requirement.
I'm always all ears for suggestions, however "resource cost" and "factory time" is not enough of a drawback to make a free 1200 protection available. The ease at which harvesters can pull up a million resources in one resource shift puts a damper on most inorganic arguments.
Then please explain under what circumstances you forsee any smith making and using layers, considering the extreme extra economic costs of a layered suit versus an unlayered suit.
Blixtev wrote:
Right now this isnt true, increasing the protection only decreases the elementals. However how would adding a specific amount of Hindrance that can be experimented towards 0 on the layers only? This would enable me to raise the protections back up to 1200or higher to compensate. Something like a baseline of 4-5% hindrance on the layer only that is only experimentable there that carries up to the final combine.
i like the way this sounds. solves a bit of the problem of the oversimplified experimentation that is one of our top issues. would also bring back the benefit of being a 12 point smith. maybe make the hindrance 4% at 0% experimentation, and 0% hindrance at 100% experimentation. as a rough guess based on how layers and encumbrance are currently on live, we'd be looking at about 8 points in protection, and 4 points in hindrance. this would probably put us a little under 2% hindrance on the layers. at 4 layers to a segment, this would be an additional 7-8% rise in hindrance. i think that is acceptable for the added protection to energy and kinetic resists.