Armorsmith Archive
Thread: Advanced Layer Primus nerfed with v. 120884?
Ackehece wrote:
hmmm as a hardcore pvp'r the extra percentage or two of protection would be worth much. If it allows you to last a 1/10 of a sec longer then your opponent you win. So if they are only into high end combat they may spend the money (kinda like on live now when they buy 15-20 suits of composite so that they get the perfect effectiveness slice on each piece)
I'm a pretty hardcore PvPer myself, and I'll be honest -- I just don't see any real market in which 55.5% energy resistant armor commands four to five times the price of 54% energy resistant armor post-CURB.
That's all the difference you'll have between an unlayered, sliced piece of Recon armor and a 12-layered, sliced piece of Recon armor. And because slicing in the CURB is totally predictive, you'll get the same results every time.
There might be a niche market, no doubt. But they'll pay through the nose if they're going to make it worth any smith's while to produce.
I see you are still working out your flaws....
ZionHalcyon wrote:
Kryonastus wrote:
Oh yeah thats right, its because you DELETE all the suggestions about the CU. I forgot.
But just for the sake of playing devil's advocate here, why wont there be a combat que? Why do we have those gaudy icons? Why have you made crafting nothing more than a dull grindout? Why have you attempted to invalidate the resources we have stockpiled? Why have you set up conversions to make everything we have complete crap and useless? And why have you gone about customarily ignoring, then ultimately deleting any truly intelligent and straightforward, well thought out, constructive, and flame-free posts? Why did you completely ignore the best correspondant in the group of them and then boot him out and wipe your ass with him after he got mad that you were killing his proffession?
Actually, I can sum all of those up in one question. Why do you no longer care if the players are having fun?
Cancel your account please. Your incessant whining bores me.
You raise Kinetic-Energy, the other resists lower the same. Thats the negative aspect. Since Elemental Damage is so inconsequential in combat, shouldn't this be a Weaponsmith Issue also?
If they are going to apply these changes to the Primus Layers, they need to apply the same to all layers. So Kinetic Layers will have the hindrance go up and will not lower Energy Resists.
JeCy wrote:
Blixtev wrote:Again the problem between old/new systems was the "requirement" of layers to sell armor. Those massively layered suits in the old system "should" have caused major penalties on the wearer. Due to the power of Doctor buffs this never happened. Before the prevalence of Doctor buffs smiths did not make suits like this as they just caused so severe a HAM cost. Since the downside was mitigated by buffs and Brandy there was no reason not to get as much protection as you could and ignore the HAM cost. Had those layers made the armor difficult to wear in any way I would guess that layering wouldn't have become a requirement.
People have been saying this forever and there was a super simple soultion.. NERF SECONDARY BUFFS.. I fight all the time with no doc buffs and have been for over a year.. I use food to increase my ham.. a slight secondary boost.. soo i can regen on rest. and i dont drain my pools super fast I get more haelth with pixey.. Like say some won won, acc, brandy, pixey and some random food..like snow or synth or something this doesnt turn me into superman yet i can go out and have lots of fun and specials, heals and things all need to be thought about not just spam head torso 3 cause it does the most damage.... along with sacrificing on protection to lighten my armor.. or using a lower damage gun that doesnt kill my ham..
you never would ahve had people wearing 90% comp cuase no one could wear it.. not even humans and if they did.. they would have killed themselves using specials faster than they took damage. or would have needed 2 docs on him healing just to tank. the old system was not perfect but if tweaked it would have been..
You still would have had triple layer comp.. and people would ahve used layers but we would have made um lighter.. i was one of the few that made triple layer comp with 400 ham before slice.. i was also the only smith making triple layer comp that a trando could wear with out slicing. yes i had to sacrifice points in protection but it was still decent armor.. like around 50%.. in all protections. There was also a choice. do i take comp at 50% in all.. or do i grab chitin at 60% kin.. but low energy.. or do i use some nice bone with high energy but low kin.. everything was a trade off.. BEFORE superman buffs
You had the best system ever.. why didnt you just try removing secondary doc buffs first and saw what happened before you got into to this way way way over compliacted CU and have taken away good combat options for low lvl players.. My time of even killing low lvl spawns for harvesters is done.. i dont think i could even take out a small group of maulers anymore.. You made elite's even more elite...
btw why is it a elite combat person in a group riding a bike takes 1/4 the damage as a non combatant solo.. when they are not using zero skills.. and have the added bonus of wearing armor to reduce it even further.. even there damage mitigation works.. when they are using ZERO combat skills.. Seams way unfair.. from a non combatants point of veiw.. Hmm maybe there dodge is wiggling in there seat??
Je'Cy
This along with some other tweaks (drastically scaling back some of the exceptional weapons for example) would have been a much easier pill to swallow than this less than desirable product that comes closer and closer to live each day.
Level based damage mitigation will make it more and more difficult to explore the worlds for new players. Was there any thought put into the game for that? People on speeders taking reduced damage because of their profession/LEVEL? Where in the hell is the logic in that? I've got to hand it to Blixtev for suddenly becoming responsive, but he's being very selective about the posts he responds to.
-VtS-Maddix wrote:
Am I missing something major here, or would the majority of arguments in this thread be solved by cutting the Layer resource requirements (yes, leaving the protection levels 'nerfed' as well) in half?
Okay so Layers aren't uber anymore, but they still have a small advanatage. Possibly not enough to warrent the extra 100-200k per suit tho. Cut the resources needed for the layers in half and it suddenly becomes far more reasonable that a customer would want to pay the extra for them.
in the case of regualar, good cores, keep the resources req's desent. have the specifics pop in about the best cores, and then for the Uber cores have it with the hard to get yet spawnable resource. you'd have cores with average, good, great and supierior stats. the actualy uber corewill be there but hard to be obtained by anyone in large quanities. witch would keep it being sold, yet have rangers going Nuts trying to find this stuff. This would also be a great answer for price range. where only the primius cores, which are hard to get, are the high priced epic part. everything else could be set for easier price.
"
For all your Field Protections needs (as well as Reb Master Munitions Crafter ).
CaileSathinor wrote:
Ok. Thread read. I think y'all melted the snow outside my window though...
The Solution(tm):
Return Primus layers to their original effectiveness. As Blixtev has stated, hinderance is undesirable as an experimented stat. Very well, I'll accept this. Looking at how complexity works as you experiment on a schematic, each time you push the "Run experiment" button, the complexity of the schematic increases by X amount. Apply this same theory to all layers, depending on their relative power. As layer "power" increases, with Primus being the relative "top," the amount you increase protection by will ad a fixed, unexperimentable (obviously) hinderance value to the layer, not to exceed (say 5% to each hinderance in the case of Primus layers). Layer hinderances WILL stack with each other, so quadruple layered primus could have as high as an added +20% to each hinderance.
Commentses?
Message Edited by CaileSathinor on 04-24-2005 10:14 PM
I knows this is what has been stated, but please don't accept it. We need to get our hands on hinderance, it is really the only thing out there that is meaningful to experiment upon. Hinderance is HAM; our HAM experimentation has been given fully to the combat professions as a method of determining what grade of armor works best for their skills. Giving up on this is giving up on the #1 concern of the community.
Reduce the hinderence negation modifiers by 50% on all combat professions.
Allow the armorsmith to use OQ/MA resource and experimenting to lower the hindrence on armor up to 50%.
Yes, under this scenario we have a situation where a player who is halfway through a master could switch to an advance core and still be without hinderence. However, this armor should not be as good because we have used OQ/MA resources instead of OQ/SR resources. Additionally we have devoted a good deal of our experimentation towards lowering the hinderence.
Easy solution? No. Workable? Yes. I haven't seen any really "great" solution to the "dumbing down" of the profession. They have their hands full with the conversion issues now; they aren't going to convert the armor again down the road to let us have a piece of the hinderence experimentation.
Renea,
Blixtev wrote:
Right now this isnt true, increasing the protection only decreases the elementals. However how would adding a specific amount of Hindrance that can be experimented towards 0 on the layers only? This would enable me to raise the protections back up to 1200or higher to compensate. Something like a baseline of 4-5% hindrance on the layer only that is only experimentable there that carries up to the final combine.
Kalandra wrote:
This concept of a free 1200 points isn't exactly correct. When you increase the protection stats in the primus layers, you also increase the hindrance values
This also needs to be the case for the segments and the core. The ranges should be +/-20% of the overall henderence, i.e. a 40% henderence would be 48% at 0% experimented and 32% at 100% experimented. Most should be able to get it to 50%, need about 24-27% or 3-4 exp points to hit the no penality point. Adding layers would increase the henderence making one want to experiment even further on henderence. In the end there should be an over all plus for using layers to offset the resource use, although not over powering so unlayered uncomplicated armor would still be of interest.
Blixtev wrote:
Again the problem between old/new systems was the "requirement" of layers to sell armor. Those massively layered suits in the old system "should" have caused major penalties on the wearer. Due to the power of Doctor buffs this never happened. Before the prevalence of Doctor buffs smiths did not make suits like this as they just caused so severe a HAM cost. Since the downside was mitigated by buffs and Brandy there was no reason not to get as much protection as you could and ignore the HAM cost. Had those layers made the armor difficult to wear in any way I would guess that layering wouldn't have become a requirement.
People have been saying this forever and there was a super simple soultion.. NERF SECONDARY BUFFS.. I fight all the time with no doc buffs and have been for over a year.. I use food to increase my ham.. a slight secondary boost..soo i can regen on rest. and i dontdrainmy pools super fast I get more haelthwith pixey.. Like say some won won, acc, brandy, pixey and some random food..like snow or synth or something this doesnt turn me into superman yet i can go out and have lots of fun and specials, heals and things all need to be thought about not just spam head torso 3 cause it does the most damage.... along with sacrificing on protection to lighten my armor.. or using a lower damage gun that doesnt kill my ham..
you never would ahve had people wearing 90% comp cuase no one could wear it.. not even humans and if they did.. they would have killed themselves using specials faster than they took damage. or would have needed 2 docs on him healing just to tank. the old system was not perfect but if tweaked it would have been..
You still would have had triple layer comp.. and people would ahve used layers but we would have made um lighter.. i was one of the few that made triple layer comp with 400 ham before slice.. i was also the only smith making triple layer comp that a trando could wear with out slicing. yes i had to sacrifice points in protection but it was still decent armor.. like around 50%.. in all protections. There was also a choice. do i take comp at 50% in all.. or do i grab chitin at 60% kin.. but low energy.. or do i use some nice bone with high energy but low kin.. everything was a trade off.. BEFORE superman buffs
You had the best system ever.. why didnt you just try removing secondary doc buffs first and saw what happened before you got into to this way way way over compliacted CU and have taken away good combat options for low lvl players.. My time of even killing low lvl spawns for harvesters is done.. i dont think i could even take out a small group of maulers anymore.. You made elite's even more elite...
btw why is it a elite combat person in a group riding a bike takes 1/4 the damage as a non combatant solo.. when they are not using zero skills.. and have the added bonus of wearing armor to reduce it even further.. even there damage mitigation works.. when they are using ZERO combat skills.. Seams way unfair.. from a non combatants point of veiw.. Hmm maybe there dodge is wiggling in there seat??
Je'Cy
Blixtev wrote:Yes all advanced layers protection was cut in half. One of the Armorsmiths on this forum sent me a great PM on why no one would use anything but Primus. As there are no downsides to using layers now (beyond the extra factory time and resource usage) I had 2 options, a)reduce their effectiveness b)remove them from the tree. I went with the reducing the effectiveness route for people who still wish to use them.
Am I the only one that finds it ironic that a change was made based on a PM from an Armorsmith on this forum where our previous Corrispondant was fired from his position from recommending we send Blixtev PM's about the bugs it the Armorsmith profession?
DeQuosaek wrote:
Blixtev wrote:
Again the problem between old/new systems was the "requirement" of layers to sell armor. Those massively layered suits in the old system "should" have caused major penalties on the wearer. Due to the power of Doctor buffs this never happened. Before the prevalence of Doctor buffs smiths did not make suits like this as they just caused so severe a HAM cost. Since the downside was mitigated by buffs and Brandy there was no reason not to get as much protection as you could and ignore the HAM cost. Had those layers made the armor difficult to wear in any way I would guess that layering wouldn't have become a requirement.
I'm always all ears for suggestions, however "resource cost" and "factory time" is not enough of a drawback to make a free 1200 protection available. The ease at which harvesters can pull up a million resources in one resource shift puts a damper on most inorganic arguments.
Um... so why not make a higher hindrance penalty for using layers? Movement, speed,etc... Something that can't just be mitigated away. Give smiths and customers some more decisions to make.
Well, you have a point with the resources bit, except you forgot to add in the "waiting for a month and a half for a decent spawn of a named resource" before the "pulling up a million resources" part.
Brutus_Krylop wrote:
RelicOMO wrote:
You already have a situation where there is 'the best'weapon. It's actually even worse than it is right now, because most professions carry around 2-3 weapons or so - different damage types for PvE, and perhaps an extra one for PvP. With the removal of most damage types, and creature resistances being based on level rather than stats, there's actually only one best weapon for every profession, and that's the highest level weapon, because that will always have the best dps. A Jawa Ion rifle does the same damage type asa T21, but because it is a lower level weapon, it will always have a lower dps, no ifs ands or buts. A LVA used to do different damage than a vibro lance, so they had different uses, but now an LVA is a low level weapon, and a vibro lance is a high level weapon, so the lance always has higher dps - no reason to ever use an LVA.
This level-based system does absolutely nothing to change what is the 'best' weapon and the 'best' armour. Elemental damage is so small in comparison to main damage that there's no reason to gear armour to resist it, which is exactly why you reduced the Primus layers. Making weapon damage dependent on the level of the weapon ensures only that people will use the highest level weapon, rather than a variety of weapons.
Q.F.F.E.
Along with the horrid level-based damage system, the new damage type system and "level-scaling" of both weapons and armor are the worst things about the CURB. All this emphasis on character level and power as you progress in your template is just totally nonsensical in a profession-based game for which the game doesn't truly start until you complete your template.