Armorsmith Archive
Thread: Advanced Layer Primus nerfed with v. 120884?
Blixtev wrote:
Right now this isnt true, increasing the protection only decreases the elementals. However how would adding a specific amount of Hindrance that can be experimented towards 0 on the layers only? This would enable me to raise the protections back up to 1200or higher to compensate. Something like a baseline of 4-5% hindrance on the layer only that is only experimentable there that carries up to the final combine.
If my general protection value on an advanced core is 6000, and if I use 12 +60 primus layers (adding 720 to the energy and kinetic values):
- Kinetic and energy protectionsin battle armor go up 3.3 percentile points.
- Kinetic protection in assault armor goes up by2.6, while energy protection goes up 4.1
- Energy protection in reconaissance armor goes up by 2.6, while kinetic protection goes up 4.1
Anyway, first off, I had no idea any of this was changed, to be honest (would have been nice for it to have been brought to my attention so I could give my 5 cents, but oh well. Nothin we can do about that now).
Secondly, here's a rough proposed solution to fix several of our issues:
Some background:
Primus layers were found to have great returns and very little drawbacks, their effectiveness as a whole was reduced. At a master combat profession, the mitigation abilities of the profession as a whole when applied to armor remove any and all penalties the armor will produce. Both of these are an inherent problem. The first is an unneccessary removal of a valuable resource for the profession while the second removes the ability for any armor to be distinguishable beyond "straight up resistances." The following proposal addresses both concerns with a single possible solution.
The Solution(tm):
Return Primus layers to their original effectiveness. As Blixtev has stated, hinderance is undesirable as an experimented stat. Very well, I'll accept this. Looking at how complexity works as you experiment on a schematic, each time you push the "Run experiment" button, the complexity of the schematic increases by X amount. Apply this same theory to all layers, depending on their relative power. As layer "power" increases, with Primus being the relative "top," the amount you increase protection by will ad a fixed, unexperimentable (obviously) hinderance value to the layer, not to exceed (say 5% to each hinderance in the case of Primus layers). Layer hinderances WILL stack with each other, so quadruple layered primus could have as high as an added +20% to each hinderance.
What this will do:
First off, it will still allow Primus (and other layers) to retain their original power. Secondly, Layers will truly become an option for armor, as the hinderances on the final product will not be completely mitigated away by master level combat professions.
Commentses?
Message Edited by CaileSathinor on 04-24-2005 10:14 PM
CaileSathinor wrote:
First off, it will still allow Primus (and other layers) to retain their original power. Secondly, Layers will truly become an option for armor, as the hinderances on the final product will not be completely mitigated away by master level combat professions.
CaileSathinor wrote:
Return Primus layers to their original effectiveness. As Blixtev has stated, hinderance is undesirable as an experimented stat. Very well, I'll accept this. Looking at how complexity works as you experiment on a schematic, each time you push the "Run experiment" button, the complexity of the schematic increases by X amount. Apply this same theory to all layers, depending on their relative power. As layer "power" increases, with Primus being the relative "top," the amount you increase protection by will ad a fixed, unexperimentable (obviously) hinderance value to the layer, not to exceed (say 5% to each hinderance in the case of Primus layers). Layer hinderances WILL stack with each other, so quadruple layered primus could have as high as an added +20% to each hinderance.
A small point, but an important one: Because each segment is independent and additive for advanced cores, saying "quad-layered" or "quadruple layered" is actually a misnomer. What you are referring to as "quadruple layered" is, in fact, 12-layered. That's why Blix keeps referencing the 1200 maximum increase with primus layers (12*100).
So, if you were touse a fully-layered advanced core, where the layers each added 5% hindrances, you would actually be increasing hindrance by 60%.
Eh... Don't they in live?
Ryche_Mykola wrote:
With the new layers, the cost justification (factored as time spent and additional resources) makes layers useless. Why will a customer pay hundreds of thousands more for a suit of armor with 3-5% more protection?
Blixtev wrote:
Okram2k wrote:
so now... instead of using only one, we will use none. Good job!Layers at some point went from "optional" to "all smiths must use if they want to sell". I was hoping we could get away from this, especially as the one cost they did have (ENCUMBRANCE) was yanked out of the system.
The PM I got on how a "free 1200" points of kinetic and energy being "too good" was very convincing.
For one I am impressed to Blixtec posting rock on dude.
as for layers, the customer would want the suit with the best stats, so no matter how it's done there will be a must for layers. To bad there wasn't a system that could be to affect the moment rate, attack speed,etc just to balance Resistance. last heard we only had one line of experimentation..
Blixtev wrote:
Again the problem between old/new systems was the "requirement" of layers to sell armor. Those massively layered suits in the old system "should" have caused major penalties on the wearer. Due to the power of Doctor buffs this never happened. Before the prevalence of Doctor buffs smiths did not make suits like this as they just caused so severe a HAM cost. Since the downside was mitigated by buffs and Brandy there was no reason not to get as much protection as you could and ignore the HAM cost. Had those layers made the armor difficult to wear in any way I would guess that layering wouldn't have become a requirement.
I'm always all ears for suggestions, however "resource cost" and "factory time" is not enough of a drawback to make a free 1200 protection available. The ease at which harvesters can pull up a million resources in one resource shift puts a damper on most inorganic arguments.
Um... so why not make a higher hindrance penalty for using layers? Movement, speed,etc... Something that can't just be mitigated away. Give smiths and customers some more decisions to make.
Well, you have a point with the resources bit, except you forgot to add in the "waiting for a month and a half for a decent spawn of a named resource" before the "pulling up a million resources" part. 
JeCy wrote:
Blixtev wrote:
Again the problem between old/new systems was the "requirement" of layers to sell armor. Those massively layered suits in the old system "should" have caused major penalties on the wearer. Due to the power of Doctor buffs this never happened. Before the prevalence of Doctor buffs smiths did not make suits like this as they just caused so severe a HAM cost. Since the downside was mitigated by buffs and Brandy there was no reason not to get as much protection as you could and ignore the HAM cost. Had those layers made the armor difficult to wear in any way I would guess that layering wouldn't have become a requirement.
People have been saying this forever and there was a super simple soultion.. NERF SECONDARY BUFFS.. I fight all the time with no doc buffs and have been for over a year.. I use food to increase my ham.. a slight secondary boost..soo i can regen on rest. and i dontdrainmy pools super fast I get more haelthwith pixey.. Like say some won won, acc, brandy, pixey and some random food..like snow or synth or something this doesnt turn me into superman yet i can go out and have lots of fun and specials, heals and things all need to be thought about not just spam head torso 3 cause it does the most damage.... along with sacrificing on protection to lighten my armor.. or using a lower damage gun that doesnt kill my ham..
you never would ahve had people wearing 90% comp cuase no one could wear it.. not even humans and if they did.. they would have killed themselves using specials faster than they took damage. or would have needed 2 docs on him healing just to tank. the old system was not perfect but if tweaked it would have been..
You still would have had triple layer comp.. and people would ahve used layers but we would have made um lighter.. i was one of the few that made triple layer comp with 400 ham before slice.. i was also the only smith making triple layer comp that a trando could wear with out slicing. yes i had to sacrifice points in protection but it was still decent armor.. like around 50%.. in all protections. There was also a choice. do i take comp at 50% in all.. or do i grab chitin at 60% kin.. but low energy.. or do i use some nice bone with high energy but low kin.. everything was a trade off.. BEFORE superman buffs
You had the best system ever.. why didnt you just try removing secondary doc buffs first and saw what happened before you got into to this way way way over compliacted CU and have taken away good combat options for low lvl players.. My time of even killing low lvl spawns for harvesters is done.. i dont think i could even take out a small group of maulers anymore.. You made elite's even more elite...
btw why is it a elite combat person in a group riding a bike takes 1/4 the damage as a non combatant solo.. when they are not using zero skills.. and have the added bonus of wearing armor to reduce it even further.. even there damage mitigation works.. when they are using ZERO combat skills.. Seams way unfair.. from a non combatants point of veiw.. Hmm maybe there dodge is wiggling in there seat??
Je'Cy
CaileSathinor wrote:
Ok. Thread read. I think y'all melted the snow outside my window though...
Anyway, first off, I had no idea any of this was changed, to be honest (would have been nice for it to have been brought to my attention so I could give my 5 cents, but oh well. Nothin we can do about that now).
Secondly, here's a rough proposed solution to fix several of our issues:
Some background:
Primus layers were found to have great returns and very little drawbacks, their effectiveness as a whole was reduced. At a master combat profession, the mitigation abilities of the profession as a whole when applied to armor remove any and all penalties the armor will produce. Both of these are an inherent problem. The first is an unneccessary removal of a valuable resource for the profession while the second removes the ability for any armor to be distinguishable beyond "straight up resistances." The following proposal addresses both concerns with a single possible solution.
The Solution(tm):
Return Primus layers to their original effectiveness. As Blixtev has stated, hinderance is undesirable as an experimented stat. Very well, I'll accept this. Looking at how complexity works as you experiment on a schematic, each time you push the "Run experiment" button, the complexity of the schematic increases by X amount. Apply this same theory to all layers, depending on their relative power. As layer "power" increases, with Primus being the relative "top," the amount you increase protection by will ad a fixed, unexperimentable (obviously) hinderance value to the layer, not to exceed (say 5% to each hinderance in the case of Primus layers). Layer hinderances WILL stack with each other, so quadruple layered primus could have as high as an added +20% to each hinderance.
What this will do:
First off, it will still allow Primus (and other layers) to retain their original power. Secondly, Layers will truly become an option for armor, as the hinderances on the final product will not be completely mitigated away by master level combat professions.
Commentses?Message Edited by CaileSathinor on 04-24-2005 10:14 PM
kinda my thoughts too, it kind of brings us back to the High HAM, High protections, sinerio.
wouldbalance things out too :/