Armorsmith Archive
Thread: Advanced Layer Primus nerfed with v. 120884?
Blixtev wrote:
Quite frankly I'm surprised that you thought someone would want to make all of these other layers. They are pointless. Might as well just pull all layers. I can't imagine there will be many quad layered primus suits out there seeing how it will take 11k of resources and only offer a 2% increase in protection.
Or here's an idea... ask the community that knows the profession what they think.
I have taken as many suggestions as I could and implemented as many of them as I could, hitting most of the top 5 you presented recently.
Oh cmon why do you have to just blatantly lie like that? You havent given a crap about what we have thought since you started dreaming up this CU. Even the people who say the CU has potential dont like many aspects of it. Maybe you should take THOSE suggestions?
Arem wrote:
Blixtev wrote:
Again the problem between old/new systems was the "requirement" of layers to sell armor. Those massively layered suits in the old system "should" have caused major penalties on the wearer. Due to the power of Doctor buffs this never happened. Before the prevalence of Doctor buffs smiths did not make suits like this as they just caused so severe a HAM cost. Since the downside was mitigated by buffs and Brandy there was no reason not to get as much protection as you could and ignore the HAM cost. Had those layers made the armor difficult to wear in any way I would guess that layering wouldn't have become a requirement.
I'm always all ears for suggestions, however "resource cost" and "factory time" is not enough of a drawback to make a free 1200 protection available. The ease at which harvesters can pull up a million resources in one resource shift puts a damper on most inorganic arguments.
Imho Ineed to disagree. The layer system was very well balanced and that since October 2003 when layers were fixed (revised). Ifwhat you claim is true layersmust have stayed as they were before publish3!
I said this many times that publish was the big mistake to armor, from patch notes...
Armorsmith - Armor components that give special protections now add on top of the armor's general effectiveness. This applies only if the armor wasn't previously vulnerable to that damage type.
Armorsmith - Experimentation on general effectiveness now adds to special protections given by components. This does not apply if the armor was previously vulnerable to that damage type.
Armorsmith - Fixed a problem where adding special protections to armor did not remove any underlying vulnerabilities
Once resources were available in the 900 OQ/MA/SR it was easily possible to create 1/1/1 layers that were good for 80% Kinetic armor, base effectiveness should have been unimportant but customers went for the spoilers, (still dont get it, but the market demanded high base on top).
80% Kinetic Composite suits with total HAM of under 1500 were possible. Unlayerd Composite sets were possible with 1200 HAM but with under 60% Kinetic those could never compete. If 60% protection was intended to be the cap, you should have just flattened the experimentation curves or never let publish 3 go live like it did.
lol you just took months of their work away with this. This would have been the best way to do it....but nooo
Kryonastus wrote:
Oh yeah thats right, its because you DELETE all the suggestions about the CU. I forgot.
But just for the sake of playing devil's advocate here, why wont there be a combat que? Why do we have those gaudy icons? Why have you made crafting nothing more than a dull grindout? Why have you attempted to invalidate the resources we have stockpiled? Why have you set up conversions to make everything we have complete crap and useless? And why have you gone about customarily ignoring, then ultimately deleting any truly intelligent and straightforward, well thought out, constructive, and flame-free posts? Why did you completely ignore the best correspondant in the group of them and then boot him out and wipe your ass with him after he got mad that you were killing his proffession?
Actually, I can sum all of those up in one question. Why do you no longer care if the players are having fun?
Cancel your account please. Your incessant whining bores me.
Blixtev wrote:Hindrance is our built in system to ensure combat professions wear the correct levels of armor for their advancement. Letting it be an experimention line would endanger us of going back to the old system where no one used the lower end armors because you could at any point put on the higher end armor. Novice elites would put on the advanced and new purchase a set of basic or standard. I have no doubt the smiths would figure out ways of making the top end armor wearable by the novice elites.
This is all fine and dandy but... one of the greatest appeals of Star Wars Galaxies was that it wasn't a game with a primary focus of leveling-up like most MMORPGs - you had leveling-up 'lite' and once you made your skillset or 'template', you were free to explore the world. The focus was more on living in the said Star Wars world and playing your chosen profession(s) and unless the focus is completely shifted from living in the SW universe to a silly leveling-up game, this is simply wrong reasoning as players will inevitably become what they wish to become and use only the 'high-end' equipment anyway.
The same thing happened with viability of 'newbie' weapons - instead of revamping weapons to create more diversity as promised, weapons just got their new higher and lower-level counterparts, making people with 'finished templates' choose between a very limited amount of them. That's not really creating more diversity...
The whole CURB seems to have been done with the leveling-up mini-game in mind when, in fact, it is (or at least was and should be) a minor part of the whole SWG experience.
Message Edited by riotcontrol on 04-25-2005 05:45 AM
Blixtev wrote:
_Monroe_ wrote:
There are solutions but since, by your own words at the breakfast, you don'tread the boards it doesn't surprise me that you haven't seen them.
That is a misquote, I said that in reference to the Jedi forums as everything over in that forum gets squashed in a matter of minutes, be it useful or not. Most of my posting is done late at night as I don't have the time at work to browse the forums, so I do it in my free time.
Fair enough.
1. Increase hindrance. Make hindrance an experimetation line.
Hindrance is our built in system to ensure combat professions wear the correct levels of armor for their advancement. Letting it be an experimention linewould endanger us of going back to the old system where no one used the lower end armors because you could at any point put on the higher end armor. Novice elites would put on the advanced and new purchase a set of basic or standard.I have no doubt the smiths would figure out ways of making the top end armor wearable by the novice elites.
We would would have to break up the certs in the combat professions like a cert basic at novice, cert standard somewhere through the tree and cert advanced at master, which we wanted to leave the combat professions a bit of flexibility in what they wore levelwise.
If you increased the base hindrance such that a smith could get it back to where it is now by say using 2 or 3 points and opened up the hindrance line for experimentation it would force people to be concerned about it. As it is now on TC who cares about hindrances. No one does because a master elite can wear any piece of armor out there for their class.
2. Make both kinetic and energy (and maybe even elemental) experimetation lines.
The team in general is very worried about armor letting players get back into the state of near invulnerability, so we may have been overally gunshy on letting the crafting let the values go up too high.
Elemental layers are pointless. Kinetic and energy layers pretty much are though you could argue that energy layers could be used in a jedi hunting suit. This leaves us with primus layers as the only one out there of any real value to the majority of the customer base. Even with perfect resources and gaining 1200 points of protection on a suit that only adds up to 4% additional damage reduction.
I'm not sure how you figure that if a smith has to divide up their experimentation points over 2 or 3 lines it will make the layer more superior to the way it is now. When you experiment on a primus layer you get both kinetic and energy. I'm saying let us pick where we want to increase. On kinetic layers when you experiment on it you lose energy. Give us a chance to make a little of that back. Even if we could make a +100 kinetic layer currently that would be a -101 energy. Give us the option of making say a +50k +0e (up from -51e) layer.
Quite frankly I'm surprised that you thought someone would want to make all of these other layers. They are pointless. Might as well just pull all layers. I can't imagine there will be many quad layered primus suits out there seeing how it will take 11k of resources and only offer a 2% increase in protection.
Or here's an idea... ask the community that knows the profession what they think.
I have taken as many suggestions as I could and implemented as many of them as I could, hitting most of the top 5 you presented recently.
The biggest concern everyone has is the dumbing down or the removal of any creativity and skill from the AS profession. Making yet another layer pointless just adds to that.
Hindrance is our built in system to ensure combat professions wear the correct levels of armor for their advancement. Letting it be an experimention line would endanger us of going back to the old system where no one used the lower end armors because you could at any point put on the higher end armor. Novice elites would put on the advanced and new purchase a set of basic or standard. I have no doubt the smiths would figure out ways of making the top end armor wearable by the novice elites.
Yes but people won't wear the lower end armors because they don't really need them, forinstance if your tied to only fighting mobs with in say a 4 lvl range that you can kill with out armor anyway why wear armor when you know you can something with out it? Especially when it costs estimated 300k. SO essentially no one will wear the lower end armors and will only wear the Advanced counterparts when their templates are complete for pvp and high end pve with groups; so we are again at the same point we are now instead of seeing comp soldiers every where will will see people wearing Advanced forms of the armors with different skins and novice elites lvling with clothes.
Right now this isnt true, increasing the protection only decreases the elementals. However how would adding a specific amount of Hindrance that can be experimented towards 0 on the layers only? This would enable me to raise the protections back up to 1200or higher to compensate. Something like a baseline of 4-5% hindrance on the layer only that is only experimentable there that carries up to the final combine.
Kalandra wrote:
This concept of a free 1200 points isn't exactly correct. When you increase the protection stats in the primus layers, you also increase the hindrance values
Blixtev wrote:
Right now this isnt true, increasing the protection only decreases the elementals. However how would adding a specific amount of Hindrance that can be experimented towards 0 on the layers only? This would enable me to raise the protections back up to 1200or higher to compensate. Something like a baseline of 4-5% hindrance on the layer only that is only experimentable there that carries up to the final combine.
Kalandra wrote:
This concept of a free 1200 points isn't exactly correct. When you increase the protection stats in the primus layers, you also increase the hindrance values
I like it. But it depends on how many points you'd have to drop in to recover the penalty. Also if you are serious about testing this I suggest some perfect resources and 12 pt smith so that the concern about making players invulnerable is addressed.
I think though maybe even better would be as you raise protection, hindrance goes up and forces a smith to compensate for it. Just dropping in a baseline penalty for hindrance doesn't really accomplish the same thing.
If you opened up kinetic and energy linesalso a smith would have to then decide where to place their points to get the best protection and still not have a penalty for the master elite wearing it.
_Monroe_ wrote:
Blixtev wrote:
Right now this isnt true, increasing the protection only decreases the elementals. However how would adding a specific amount of Hindrance that can be experimented towards 0 on the layers only? This would enable me to raise the protections back up to 1200or higher to compensate. Something like a baseline of 4-5% hindrance on the layer only that is only experimentable there that carries up to the final combine.
Kalandra wrote:
This concept of a free 1200 points isn't exactly correct. When you increase the protection stats in the primus layers, you also increase the hindrance values
I like it. But it depends on how many points you'd have to drop in to recover the penalty. Also if you are serious about testing this I suggest some perfect resources and 12 pt smith so that the concern about making players invulnerable is addressed.
I think though maybe even better would be as you raise protection, hindrance goes up and forces a smith to compensate for it. Just dropping in a baseline penalty for hindrance doesn't really accomplish the same thing.
If you opened up kinetic and energy linesalso a smith would have to then decide where to place their points to get the best protection and still not have a penalty for the master elite wearing it.
I'm glad you guys all know what you're talking about and being rational about it, because honestly this is all way over my head. It's good to know that there are players who really know their professions inside and out, including all the numbers and ramifications, and developers who are willing to listen and debate on possible solutions to what the players see as problems. This is especially important in number-intensive professions like weaponsmith, armorsmith, chef, and others who have always been heavy on experimentation.
I agree with Monroe that a test using the best possible resources and a player with the highest possible skill being run to discover the breaking point, if any, of new systems that are proposed.
Good job all around, guys. Especially considering the chaos that consumed the armorsmith forum a couple weeks ago.