Armorsmith Archive
Thread: On the infeasibility of the Force sensitive Crafting Mastery skill tree
justapilgrim
Fri Sep 03, 2004 5:49 pm
#27
with Ails 3-4 professions he should get a box or two, also if anyone could afford 90 mill units of resources it is him
lol
11Rastus11
Fri Sep 03, 2004 6:59 pm
#28
Not true, the xp can only be traded in for like xp...crafting for crafting combat for combat
you can trade rifle xp for FS xp and use it for FS crafting boxes. You dont have to use armor xp for the boxes
justapilgrim
Fri Sep 03, 2004 7:51 pm
#29
11Rastus11 wrote:
Not true, the xp can only be traded in for like xp...crafting for crafting combat for combat
you can trade rifle xp for FS xp and use it for FS crafting boxes. You dont have to use armor xp for the boxes
so you trade luck xp for FSxp for the tree?
anyways, I will just use my free ones for crafting I guess
ChryssSR
Fri Sep 03, 2004 11:24 pm
#30
Yup, you cannot use your weapon/combat xp for force crafting xp. It has to come from some form of crafting xp, be it general or armor (or any of the other crafting xp types).
Anyway, I bought it, and I like it. Unlike so many new things that get added in, I can actually notice a difference. 
Aramathin
Fri Sep 03, 2004 11:34 pm
#31
I got my Experimentation and assembly tonight, had enough xp from free unlock and combined crafting xp to get 3 trees in each. My main hope is that this will allow me to get that rare 2% bonus more often.
FlynGraves
Sat Sep 04, 2004 7:49 pm
#34
Ok, here goes my contribution....
I looked at the FS stuff before it went live and decided that it could be good to have. I'm not a holo-grinder (I did 1 simply cos it happened to be a prof I wanted at the time). I want to do the FS crafting prof simply because I wish to be as good at my chosen calling (AS, obviously) as I can be. I also did a little maths and figured that with the FS experi bonus, Bespin Port and living in a Research Centre I could probably count on more amazing successes than greats.
What does that mean to my armour? As a 12 point AS it means the ocasional % on base on some suits but in the majority of suits I make it would mean better HAM costs.
Does this matter on anything other than lightweight Comp and Kinetic Ubese to most customers? Not really.
The assembly and techniquebranches are handy, sure - I hate crit fails. The repair branch, hmmm, I'm sceptical at best about repairs anyhow but sure, it could be useful.
Even so - I want to do the tree. I will do the tree. But I will have to grind it, there's no real choice.
Sooo... If I grind it as AS and I use Mabari shirts to do it (just the example that springs to mind)... I need (after trading in all the crafting XP I had) to grind about 6.25 mill AS xp, roughly 15900 Mabari shirts. This needs:
Over 1.7 million units of Fibreplast
Over 1.3 million units of Metal
Over 400K units over Inert Petrochem
Over 630K Hide
Over 47K units of Synth cloth.
Now fortunately for me I have a very supportive (well, incredibly supportive) Guild who will help out with this stuff. If I had to buy it.... rotfl.
I am utterly dismayed by the amount of grind involved. I am more dismayed by the fact that crafters seem to be getting the dirty end of the stick financially over this. If I wanted to go and do a tree based on combat I'd suffer a worse conversion rate but....
If I ground the whole damn 6.25million XP on Quenkers (again, just an example that springs to mind)....
I'd have to accumulate 187500000 Weapons XP (I'm ignoring combat XP for simplicity so I know what follows is slightly off)
I'd get about 2K xp per Quenk (I get slightly over this as Master Swords but can't remember the exact figure) . So that's about 93750 Quenks to kill.
If I run lvl 99 Quenk missions that's about 15 Quenks per lair. So about 6250 lairs to kill.
At 5K ish per lair... you work it out.
Obviously very few people who're doing the combat part will grind Quenks to do it. But even so, the combat people should make a pretty good amount of money grinding their branches. And if they're doing anything that converts Scout XP then they get that at the same time as well as harvesting thousands of units of organics which they can then sell (even if it's low quality they can sell it to us AS's for grinding our branches!).
So, we get to pay hefty sums to get our branches. They get to make hefty sums doing theirs.
And if anyone says "But you'll make it back afterwards from the better armour you sell".... well, let's say theoretically I go full crafting FS and that allows me to knock 100 off each total HAM for a full suit of Compo. How much extra is the customer going to pay for that?
Maths time again....
Let's say I if get all the resources needed to grind at 1cpu: 3.4 million creds.
I if harvest all 636K+ of hide (uh huh, likely)
I if pay 2K per crate for my Synth (cheap for my server)... that's over 1900 crates, call it 1900... 3.8 million creds.
So total: Over 7 million creds expenditure on what I consider a pretty conservative estimate.
Now... The most likely suit to make me more money after all this compared to before is Lightweight Composite....
So even if I chuck 50K on the price of each suit I have to sell 144 suits for FS Crafting to break even.
Of course, some AS's will sell that in a week. I don't and TBH I don't think too many customers would pay that much extra for a reduced HAM (ok, maybe Rodians would).
Ok, I've rambled enough.
Yes, I agree there's an insane amount of grinding to do.
Yes, I agree that it should be reduced.
But I also think it should be reduced due to the finacial aspect. Ok, we have to earn our XP to convert and yes, as crafters that will cost us resources etc but in a game where at the moment a combat prof can go out and earn millions running Janta missions for very little expenditure, this just feels like a kick in the ribs. I didn't do AS to be rich, I did it for the challenge, the fun etc. If I wanted to be really rich I'd drop AS, stack some defences and run Janta's whenever I needed money. Probably at the same time as earning some nice XP to convert.
So... FS grinding.... The combat characters get richer, the resource vendors get richer, the hunter/gatherers get richer, the crafters get to spend like it's going out of fashion. (oh, and end up with medical issues due to wrist strain.) (and new mice, 8 double clicks per Mabari, over a quarter of a million clicks to grind it).
I thought that the new system was intended to remove the grinding.... rotfl.
Ok, I'll shut up now.
Sevarhin
Sat Sep 04, 2004 9:30 pm
#35
DirthNader wrote:
I simply view the new Force sensitive quests as new content, and the new Force sensitive abilities as a way to continue character progression in the profession(s) that I love, and gain some neat but not unbalanced perks.
Let me get this straight...
You complained about the original concept the instant you got wind of it - the system whereby we could actually become better armorsmiths through gaining FS skills through great effort. Yes, they were powerful skills - as they are for all professions - but as you can clearly see, the effort to reward scale was appropriate. It represented a clear path to professional growth in your chosen profession, but it was alot of work.
Now we have the system, but thanks in no small part to the efforts of this board and that above-linked thread, the reward has been nerfed down to a nice-to-have perk. And so now you're complaining that the effort is not reasonable given the reward?
Of course it isn't. You made sure of that. There's a saying about sleeping in the bed you made...
Ail
Sat Sep 04, 2004 11:06 pm
#36
I'm not worried about how long it will take me to get the fs crafting boxes,
I just finally want a way to use the crafting xp I make every day.
If it takes several months it's not a problem...
And well if I really wanted to grind it, it wouldn't be a problem either as getting resources is really not an issue for me 
Sevarhin
Sat Sep 04, 2004 11:25 pm
#37
To reply less in outrage over the state of FS itself (and how it got there)...
Taking the long view, we'll be playing this game for quite some time. What's wrong with some game additions that take awhile to fully experience? Now if they were only more worth having... losing those two new experiment points that were an original part of FS Crafting leaves a much less interesting set of skills to work towards. Sure, they're "nice", but all we're talking about are things that make it easier to do our job. You can't do any better, and since I already demanded some serious quality from my subcomponents and final parts before they ever saw a schematic, all this system does is allow people to reach that level more easily... driving towards zero competitive advantage to work for.
Reducing the effect of craftsmanship is not a good trend for the profession to be working towards.
Taking the long view, we'll be playing this game for quite some time. What's wrong with some game additions that take awhile to fully experience? Now if they were only more worth having... losing those two new experiment points that were an original part of FS Crafting leaves a much less interesting set of skills to work towards. Sure, they're "nice", but all we're talking about are things that make it easier to do our job. You can't do any better, and since I already demanded some serious quality from my subcomponents and final parts before they ever saw a schematic, all this system does is allow people to reach that level more easily... driving towards zero competitive advantage to work for.
Reducing the effect of craftsmanship is not a good trend for the profession to be working towards.
Message Edited by Sevarhin on 09-04-2004 11:30 PM
DirthNader
Sun Sep 05, 2004 7:22 am
#38
Sevarhin wrote:
You complained about the original concept the instant you got wind of it - the system whereby we could actually become better armorsmiths through gaining FS skills through great effort...
Yup. I stand by my original complaint that a 14-point armorsmith is a horrible idea. Apparantly the devs agreed - as did many people in the thread you're citing and many other threads (not started by me) across other crafting forums. Eola was with me on this one, and I think much, much more of him as a crafter than you (see my response to your post bumping said original thread).
Autumn_Dawnfire
Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:47 am
#39
There are some major issue with this system period.
SOE failed to account for some things like that crafting exp is based off resources used in the combine, and a huge one.. harvester rates.
With 10 heavy harvesters working full tilt on an 80+ concentration you can expect to pull in roughly 1m units of a resouce in a week. I need how many MILLIONS of resources for this?!
The idea of using general crafting exp from x21 landspeeder on the surface looks like a good one - but it has a critical flaw - the exp CAP for even a master artisan is pathetically low - unlike the 900k of an elite combat profession ( 3:1 conversion btw ) you can 50K of general crafting exp. ( btw don't bother with any other vehicle type - you make 1680 general crafting exp per vehicle reguardless of type ).
Now convert that to FS crafting exp - 8:1 conversion ratio if i'm recalling correctly 210 FS crafting exp ( assuming your using practice - beleive you aren't going to be able to warehouse 21k of hand crafted X21's and you can't list them all for sale either ). BTW this is considerably higher then trying to do wind harvesters on a per combine basis.
The repeats for all crafting profession - we dont' cap at 900k of banked experience - period. It leaves us with a choice - ignore the FS crafting and just convert as you feel the urge - or live at the Village.
I fail to see how buying a 400k set of armor - a 40k or less weapon - 12k in buffs and "risking" a 1% decay on gear is some how more dangerious then risking my entire busisness is would be taking.
One of the central problems to this system is you simply can't craft and then go turn in - our exp caps are much too low to really do much of anything beyond go plant our butts at the npc that converts craft exp to FS craft exp. A combatant can make 900k ofweapons exp and convert it to 200k of fs combat profession exp in about 2 hours. In two hours at 10 combines a minute i can make 252k general crafting exp ( less because i have to turn in ever 50k and this accounting for things like responding to a tell, or fails ) i can convert that 252k to a whooping 31.5k of FS crafting exp.
Final conversion
combatant 200k
crafter 31.5k
Cost:
500k to 3m ( if you using really killer gear )
9.6 Million units of resources ( valued at even 2cpu that's 19.2 million crds worth of materials )
Risk factors:
*might* die have to rebuff and loose 1% condition on their gear ( can be completely avoided if there is a doc in group to rez )- might need to rebuff before that two hours is up if they die- will have to repair / replace armor in 1 day to a week depending on evasion skills and kill speeds - will need a new weapon in about a week.
just blew 9.6millionunits of resources about 9WEEKS of harvesting on 10 lots ( roughly ) in 2 hours. Just lost 19.2 mill + in cash value.
Net results:
just made a FS box! woohoo! likely got some decent sellable drops - is making money over this time.
now needs another 9 weeks to harvest resouces - or get's to start bleeding cash like mad.
The finacial risk for crafters is huge. The huge stock pile of resource for even 1 tree is insane. That's roughly 36 weeks of harvesting on 10 lots to complete 1 FS crafting tree. or you can drop 82million on 2cpu resources... Who's got the risk factor here??
Risking a "deaht" is easy compared to finding that kind of capital laying around - or taking that lot to aquire the resources needed on your own. Let's take in boredom for a minute - that combatant is moving around, queing up attacks, chatting with friends, watching guild chat, occasionally going afk for a sandwich - the crafter WILL have to plant themselves at the village and look at a crafting kit for about 49 hours straight in order to complete 1 branch.
something just ain't right there. the person using the product an AS makes completes all 4 combat trees and has moved onto other stuff in the time it takes for a crafter to complete a single branch of FS crafting?