Armorsmith Archive

And yet more then 2 weeks after the CU hit the TC and these same issues were addresses they finally get metioned. Now it's time to acknowledge that the readouts do NOT match the projected "averages or "buckets". It seems to be random at time.

This also needs to be addressed with Weapon Smiths crafting.

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Blixtev wrote:

Nice find, this was a change to crafting that was made back in Oct-Nov that didn't make it live until the rest of the code did. It seems to have been overlooked so I will give a brief outline.

Old Crafting Method:

Resources range from 0-1000, the closer you got the stats to 1000 the better the outcome of the item. The problemin this system was that many items use several different types of resources that could never approach 1000 in the stat called for in the schematic. For example the conductivity of iron is very poor.

Agun calls forgeneric metal(can have a high oq and cond), copper(generally has high cond and can have highoq) and a named iron(terrible cond max and can have a high oq) This gun will always suffer from that poor iron in itsimply because the cond range for thisiron is 50-120 for example. No matter how good the iron you can never craft a beyond a certain point as the iron gates it.

Why you may ask?

Well the old method just dumped all your resources into a virtual bucket, and based the stats on the sum total of the bucket.

New crafting Method:

The crafting scripts now look at the RANGE of every material for the slot it is going into. So if an iron that has a conductivity of 99 needs to go into the conductivityslot, the script looks up and sees that the max iron's Cond can be is 150. This means your iron is weighted as 99/150 instead of 99/1000. This means your iron is much more effective now.

With the tweaks made to the system we can now control the values of the slots in a way that makes sense, instead of the virtual bucket sum total method.

Sorry about not posting anything on this.

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One of the most useful post ever :>

Thx

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Blixtev wrote:

New crafting Method:

The crafting scripts now look at the RANGE of every material for the slot it is going into. So if an iron that has a conductivity of 99 needs to go into the conductivityslot, the script looks up and sees that the max iron's Cond can be is 150. This means your iron is weighted as 99/150 instead of 99/1000. This means your iron is much more effective now.

With the tweaks made to the system we can now control the values of the slots in a way that makes sense, instead of the virtual bucket sum total method.

Sorry about not posting anything on this.

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Blixtev wrote:

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Cianhydle wrote:

Why even have resources gated? Seems like a bunch of extra steps. Make everything 1-1000. Much simpler.

And the crafting screen definately needs an update.

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Was always a flavor issue, one would expect copper to have a higher conductivity than iron or steel. You would also expect steel to be stronger than copper.

It also is a probabilty issue on the named resources, the odds of the named shifting in and also shifting in with high stats would be slim if it was 1-1000. We skew things to help this out. The skew was just never acccounted before by the crafting system.

I will ask Flazm to look at the crafting screen bars when he gets a free minute.

Message Edited by Blixtev on 04-29-2005 09:36 PM

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Garnax wrote:

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TyfoE wrote:

I've used "Lunariel's guide to Resource Caps" and you begin to automatically memorize things at one point.

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The main difference now is that an iron with say 1000OQ 100SR might now be the better than one with 1000OQ 900SR (figures theoretical). Since swgcraft doesn't sort after this new way to calculate I'd have to check each and every named resource and calculate the new weighted average.. = headache.

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Blixtev wrote:

Nice find, this was a change to crafting that was made back in Oct-Nov that didn't make it live until the rest of the code did. It seems to have been overlooked so I will give a brief outline.

Old Crafting Method:

Resources range from 0-1000, the closer you got the stats to 1000 the better the outcome of the item. The problemin this system was that many items use several different types of resources that could never approach 1000 in the stat called for in the schematic. For example the conductivity of iron is very poor.

Agun calls forgeneric metal(can have a high oq and cond), copper(generally has high cond and can have highoq) and a named iron(terrible cond max and can have a high oq) This gun will always suffer from that poor iron in itsimply because the cond range for thisiron is 50-120 for example. No matter how good the iron you can never craft a beyond a certain point as the iron gates it.

Why you may ask?

Well the old method just dumped all your resources into a virtual bucket, and based the stats on the sum total of the bucket.

New crafting Method:

The crafting scripts now look at the RANGE of every material for the slot it is going into. So if an iron that has a conductivity of 99 needs to go into the conductivityslot, the script looks up and sees that the max iron's Cond can be is 150. This means your iron is weighted as 99/150 instead of 99/1000. This means your iron is much more effective now.

With the tweaks made to the system we can now control the values of the slots in a way that makes sense, instead of the virtual bucket sum total method.

Sorry about not posting anything on this.

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I have to say that I really PREFER the old method better. Here's why:

Let's say you've got a schematic that calls for CD/OQ, and one of the resources is a generic STEEL.

Now, let's say the best steel that's spawned is OQ 990, CD 650.

Let's say you craft a weapon, and it comes out to 2.3 Speed and 600 Max damage.

THAT is the max damage for that weapon on the server. It doesn't matter if it takes the "soft cap" on the CD of that steel. If EVERYONE knows it to be 0-1000 range, then EVERYONE knows the MAX damage on that weapon is 600-- AT THAT POINT IN TIME.

The NICE thing about this is that it gives us some hope that if we are PERSISTENT and keep looking at steel, then MAYBE something will spawn with CD 700, or even higher.

The OLD system leaves room for "rare" resources and "exceptionally rare" resources to spawn, which helps the economy. It also allows for a little more creativity and uniqueness among crafters.

I can't tell you how much I love to hear the comment "Wow! That's the BEST Laser Rifle I've ever seen!" because I made a Laser Rifle that has 8 more Damage than the best one on the server. Not a huge difference, but just enough to make it very very fun to devote a lot of time into finding those rare high quality resources for my weapons.

With the NEW system, it takes away the diversity. Everything now has a HARD cap on stats, and basically once you hit it, or come very close, you know you're never going to make anything better than anyone else on the server (krayt tissues aside).

Personally, I think the MAIN thing that was so nice and fun about THIS crafting system as compared to other MMOGs is the fact that you have that extra level of uniqueness and creativity. Otherwise, you may as well just say:

To make a Laser Rifle, you need some Copper, Steel, and Inert Gas. Stats dont' matter because every laser rifle will be the same. Just throw the resources together, and you've got the same weapon that everyone else makes.

I'm sorry, but that's just boring.

Please consider the old system again. And consider what makes crafting FUN.

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Blixtev wrote:
New crafting Method: The crafting scripts now look at the RANGE of every material for the slot it is going into. So if an iron that has a conductivity of 99 needs to go into the conductivity slot, the script looks up and sees that the max iron's Cond can be is 150. This means your iron is weighted as 99/150 instead of 99/1000. This means your iron is much more effective now.

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Message Edited by Ragnaat on 04-30-2005 10:14 AM

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Ragnaat wrote:

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Blixtev wrote:
New crafting Method: The crafting scripts now look at the RANGE of every material for the slot it is going into. So if an iron that has a conductivity of 99 needs to go into the conductivity slot, the script looks up and sees that the max iron's Cond can be is 150. This means your iron is weighted as 99/150 instead of 99/1000. This means your iron is much more effective now.

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Nice spin with that iron example, but how much less effective is something like Polysteel Copper when crafting an item that takes that resource specifically? Sure, being 988CD 941OQ* in a spraystick was pretty good before, but now? since it has such a high min cap (range of 928-1000CD).

Every single point off 1000 cap is greatly exagerated now because the min cap is so high and your copper is weighted much less effective now.

* Fetei on Test Center

Message Edited by Ragnaat on 04-30-2005 10:14 AM

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Message Edited by Ragnaat on 04-30-2005 11:31 AM

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Palath wrote:

I have to say that I really PREFER the old method better. Here's why:

Let's say you've got a schematic that calls for CD/OQ, and one of the resources is a generic STEEL.

Now, let's say the best steel that's spawned is OQ 990, CD 650.

Let's say you craft a weapon, and it comes out to 2.3 Speed and 600 Max damage.

THAT is the max damage for that weapon on the server.[...] Everything now has a HARD cap on stats, and basically once you hit it, or come very close, you know you're never going to make anything better than anyone else on the server (krayt tissues aside).

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Eskie wrote:

Can you please clarify if you use the gate of the material I use or the gate of the slot I use it in?

[...] f I use Herbivore meat with PE 100, will it be calculated as 100/700 (the gate for the resource _I_ use) or as 100/1000 (the maximum possible value for _all resources_ that can be used in that slot)?

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Ragnaat wrote:

[...] But the one that was better before got the crap kicked out of it in a way that I just didn't realize it would before I ran the numbers.

Yay for the Shipwrights who have to content with looted components so badly, but for other professions theres going to be a real shakeup beyond just learning a few new schematics or a few other ways to experiment.

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The copper is dead, long live the copper! Yeah, it is a big difference where any named resource is required.. Stuff I sold as scrap metal months ago is now the best for that task, and my whole resource inventory has to be rechecked... again!

At least chemicals and hides are exempt for AS, since they have always been 1-1000 on OQ/SR.