CUEmu - Thread Posts

Shann0w

Tue Mar 30, 2004 10:29 am

The problem is not composite. The problem is that everyone can afford composite.

To put it simply there's toomany creditsfloating around.

Composite is already difficult enough to make. For the first three months I was a master armorsmith I couldn't make the advanced segments because there was no Kiirium Steel on Wanderhome.

Somebody said something about an armor nerf? I hope that's not true. The problem isn't that I can make good armor. The problem is everyone can afford it.

Shlo_mo_shun

Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:45 pm

#15

Very mature discussion guys. Usually any call for nerfs or changes within a community are met by fierce resistance. Good to see that we can all agree that there is a problem (too much composite, not enough of other stuff). And discuss solutions or changes to diversify the armor out there. Here are my opinions of how the future of armor could go.

1. Nerf Composite, either in it's overall level, or by adding a vunerability or two. This would be met with the most resistance, cause it would affect so many, but would allow for a great rebalance on the part of the current armors in the game, RIS or Mandolorian or other'loot'style armorscould become the new Uber armor (RIS is so Hard, it isn't like you would ever see everyone running around it it), and faction and new armor couldthen be created that is equal level,or has differentvunerabilities.Pro's: Little work from the Devs, good expansion possiblity. Cons: The community is too fragile/reactive for SOE to risk the cancellations to do this

2. CreateNew armors. Thiswould be the least resistance road, in that nobody would complain. However, with Composite as good as it is now, no new armors would be acceptable unless they are as good or better. Certainly Faction Armors could do this, but after that, there isn't much room for further improvement. Additionally, thiswouldn't help make any of the other early game armors (Mabari, Tantel, Padded) any more prevalent. Pros: Easy to implement. Cons: Doesn't fix the balance, all people would wear Comp, Stormtrooper, Rebel Marine, instead of Just Comp.

3. Rebalance all armor. This is a hybrid move, it would involve buffing the early armors, changing vunerabilities, and partially nerfing composite. Some suggestions for this: Make Tantela full advanced suit, with a wearable helmet,make HAM on padded much lower, Make Mabari/Chitin/Padded/Composite with new resists/vunerabilities, Rebalance the HAM so that some suits had lower stats on some categories and higher in others (IE: Padded could be a lowHealth Suit with suit stats of like 150/300/300...etc. Do thisfor other suits too. Composite could be heavy mind at like 400/400/600 unlayered. Thus more would look elsewhere) This solutionwould take the most effort on the part of the DEVS, which worries me greatly. As well, it would have enemies in all comp wearers who didn't want their suits to be nerfed (see #1). However, it would make more diversity, and lead to the greatest possible expansion possibilities for new armor. Pros: Provides for the greatest solution. Cons: Has the most potential to fail, and could make alotof enemies in the adjustment period. And could suck if not balanced well.

Any other ideas on how we could see less Composite? Seems to me, it comes down to a decision on whether the community would accept a composite nerf or not. If they would, either #1 or #3 would work. If not, then only #2 is viable. Anyway, just my thoughts.

shlomoshun Boutros -
shlomoshun Master Armorworks - Imperial Prototype Shields
Far Haven, Tatooine, Ahazi (across from the cantina)

Jumael

Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:58 pm

#16

Padded armor is my biggest let down, I thought padded would be low ham, low resist to a lot of different attacks(ie something more common then blast) but still very functional light armor that is used to go to dangerous places, but not tank. It's by far the coolest looking armor(besides the helmet) due to the variety of colors it comes in, but it's too heavy and it lacks resistences to damage types currently popular.

jumael

Phosho

Tue Mar 30, 2004 3:22 pm

#17

they should make faction armor craftable by armoursmiths and it should be able to get as strong as composite armor

it would be sweet if a lot of imps ran into coronet in full ST armor

phosho delka

"type like I am intellegent? hmm you mena like this- would you like a
cup of tea? it was made by jolly good blends." - neurosis888

Nannji

Tue Mar 30, 2004 3:55 pm

#18

PVE ubese rocks for the most part PVP is comp but you cant put that by some people

Jekkra

Tue Mar 30, 2004 4:24 pm

#19

/agree

More armor types. I like the idea (not mine) of factional armor being better or on par with compo. What better way to get more star warsy than to have players running around overt in a full set of player made storm trooper armor?

Another idea I saw floating around is certifications for armor. Which would make sence, I mean most other RPG's I have played there have been classes that can only wear light armor (like mages or theifs and such).

I'm really hoping something like this comes to pass one day....soon.

Jekkra "Da Carpet"

Master Throw Rug.

Master Poophead

Master Chicken

Dolgan

Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:22 pm

#20

Some great ideas so far

As AS i constantly get asked for nothing but comp (tho at this moment its wookie) but adding one race specific armour type isnt enough. The devs have made a point of mentioning new armour types to come, but all i see so far is 2 more wookie types (thats what happens when ppl moan) and another, what looks to be, extrememly rare and exclusive armour type. Mandalorian.

If this is what they've deceided will improve our proff, they cant have spent as much time on it as they have discussing image designer or soon to be revamped smuggler (which i dont think is in too bad a state). One of the big problems is that as we tend to make a LOT of money, we're overlooked, as its assumed that everyone plays to make masses of money and we must obvoiusly be content as we do make a fortune. I'd be quite happy if they nerfed comp. Or, although they'd never consider this, remove it in it's current form!. Give us (as somone has said) 6 new types, all with strenghts and weaknesses and more customization options. People would keep there comp suits tucked away at home if it wasnt replaceable. Used only on occasion, and ultimately become quite a rare site, as it should be.

Weaponsmiths have masses of variety, with new weapons/enhancements being introduced with nearly every publis. Except for wookie, what have we had? An imperial psg with stats that shift (like all STILL bugged psg's). Oh, and that thing we all wanted, another layer for RIS :/

RumblingSky

Tue Mar 30, 2004 7:48 pm

#21

Shlo_mo_shun wrote:

Very mature discussion guys. Usually any call for nerfs or changes within a community are met by fierce resistance. Good to see that we can all agree that there is a problem (too much composite, not enough of other stuff). And discuss solutions or changes to diversify the armor out there. Here are my opinions of how the future of armor could go.

1. Nerf Composite, either in it's overall level, or by adding a vunerability or two. This would be met with the most resistance, cause it would affect so many, but would allow for a great rebalance on the part of the current armors in the game, RIS or Mandolorian or other'loot'style armorscould become the new Uber armor (RIS is so Hard, it isn't like you would ever see everyone running around it it), and faction and new armor couldthen be created that is equal level,or has differentvunerabilities.Pro's: Little work from the Devs, good expansion possiblity. Cons: The community is too fragile/reactive for SOE to risk the cancellations to do this

2. CreateNew armors. Thiswould be the least resistance road, in that nobody would complain. However, with Composite as good as it is now, no new armors would be acceptable unless they are as good or better. Certainly Faction Armors could do this, but after that, there isn't much room for further improvement. Additionally, thiswouldn't help make any of the other early game armors (Mabari, Tantel, Padded) any more prevalent. Pros: Easy to implement. Cons: Doesn't fix the balance, all people would wear Comp, Stormtrooper, Rebel Marine, instead of Just Comp.

3. Rebalance all armor. This is a hybrid move, it would involve buffing the early armors, changing vunerabilities, and partially nerfing composite. Some suggestions for this: Make Tantela full advanced suit, with a wearable helmet,make HAM on padded much lower, Make Mabari/Chitin/Padded/Composite with new resists/vunerabilities, Rebalance the HAM so that some suits had lower stats on some categories and higher in others (IE: Padded could be a lowHealth Suit with suit stats of like 150/300/300...etc. Do thisfor other suits too. Composite could be heavy mind at like 400/400/600 unlayered. Thus more would look elsewhere) This solutionwould take the most effort on the part of the DEVS, which worries me greatly. As well, it would have enemies in all comp wearers who didn't want their suits to be nerfed (see #1). However, it would make more diversity, and lead to the greatest possible expansion possibilities for new armor. Pros: Provides for the greatest solution. Cons: Has the most potential to fail, and could make alotof enemies in the adjustment period. And could suck if not balanced well.

I didn't want to quote your entire post, but you are dead on. Personally, the only thing they really can do is nerf composite armor. I don't mean a little stealth nerf either. I agree with another poster that specific armors should protect against specific things. They need to take away some of the resists. Yes, people will complain and other will quit. However, when you are dealing with a MMORPG, you need to look at the long run. This is something gaming companies have forgotten in their rush to put hype up the biggest illusion they can and sell us on it. They make their money and run. For some reason (and maybe I just miss the boat here), they do not realize that the real payoff in a game like this is longevity. This same company put out EverQuest what.. 5 years ago and are now developing EQ2. You would think they would understand the profitability of longevity as opposed to the quick buck here and now.

In short, on the compo nerf, let em quit. They'll come back. Others will come back who quit long ago. More importantly, however, new players will come. The new players wont have had their uber armor altered for a better game balance and will enter the game in a much more stable period. But, if they're going to do it, they need to stop playing around with inconsequential changes like body paint and make some serious game-balancing adjustments.

StarchMonkey

Tue Mar 30, 2004 10:39 pm

#22

So are we thinking about asking to nerf Composite? Honestly I like the idea as long as it comes with other balances and fixes and CONTENT. It should be part of a bigger revamp. Anyone brave enough to take a poll?

-------------------------------------------------------
Joryn Sunnrae
Master Swordsman
Master Medic
-------------------------------------------------------

Drewpey

Wed Mar 31, 2004 12:06 am

#23

idiot-proof guide to fixing armorsmith:

1. Make faction armor craftable to Master Armorsmiths (with bought schematic w/ FP from recruiters)(limited useschematics)

2. Nerf composite to a mid-level armor

3. Make all other types of craftable armor (tantel, bone, padded, mabari, chitin) have low base, and a high specialty...like ubese

4. Make factional armor have higher base than compositew/ no special, or a mid-level base and 80% specialty, but with lower encumberances

5. Fire the guy who designed the padded armor helmet

The problem now is that there is such a disparity in the usefulness of the armors. Nothing can compete with composite. If you make faction armor like composite, nothing will compete with faction armor. We need to have armor with definite pros/cons. The only con to composite is HAM costs, but with buffs and food and spice, who cares. The goal is to even the demand for all armor types, not just a few. WE DON'T NEED MORE TYPES OF ARMOR! we just need the ones we have balanced. The only armor that should be 80/65 is the really hard to get stuff. This will encourage the CGW, bring crafters into the CGW, and help round out playing in the game, and get choices on what to wear ar per armor, instead of just composite or ubese.

~Anden of Starsider
~Dewi of Scylla (retired)

I want my GCW!

SakeO

Wed Mar 31, 2004 1:39 am

#24

The wayI see it, the problem is that not only can people afford it, they can afford to wear it. People are shelling out up to 20k for a full set of buffs which allows them to wear 90/60 composite and still spam away specials. Composite has gotten too good and there is no down side to wearing beyond the expense of new suits and buffs.

Either Nerf the suits or the buffs, or this problem will persist. There should be a chice that need to be made as to whether or not to wear high resist armor. If encumbrance is not a factor, everyone will have Composite.

SakeO

StGabriel

Wed Mar 31, 2004 2:39 am

#25

Interesting discussion guys.

I've actually thought about this a lot myself. I didn't want to jump in if I was going to come of as a "nerf herder" but I'm impressed that a community is looking in on itself and its own products like this and can consider a "nerf" without immediately going down in flames. For a long time I've been concerned about armor but I think that amorsmiths wouldn't really be hurt if some armors were made a little bit less effective -- you'd just have more options to sell different things.

I know Swordsmen are really starting to have problems in that our attacks just can't penetrate the really good armors. In combat we're seeing that the primary way to penetrate armor isn't armor piercing but rather is stun damage which greatly hurts the professions that are supposed to be strong damage dealers but don't have access to stun. Furthermore, the role of melee players in general as tanks is somewhat compromised when armor is simply a much more effective defensive tool.

A big part of the problem as I see it is simply that armor ramps in effectiveness so much in the very high % resists. A while back I created a graph to demonstrate this. If you look at how resists help you it is helpful to consider how much longer your armor will help you live. For example, a 75% resist means that you can take 4 times as much damage or live 4 times longer. I thought of this as the "utility" of armor versus an attack and then I plotted the utility of various resists.

You can see that here. As you see things ramp up tremendously near the end. Not only is composite just so free of vulnerabilities but it is the one armor that can really reach the "sweet spot" on this curve (and with high effectiveness sliced armor, it can do this for most resists).

Anyway, take this post for what it is, just discussion.

I built an armorsmith a while ago and I'm really enjoying the profession. I must say that whenever I've come to skim posts on this forum I've been impressed by the good tone and good posts I've seen. I just thought I'd add my 2 cents to that, but I wouldn't want to stir up controversy.

StGabe.

Message Edited by StGabriel on 03-31-2004 04:41 AM

--- The Clan McDonnell ---

Gaffyn McDonnell -- Master of Blades (master fencer/swordsman/brawler)
Flynn McDonnell -- Master Weapon Smith (+22 exp), Armorsmith (+25 exp)
Lorrinne McDonnell -- Nightsister (pike/doc)

darylr

Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:49 am

#26

If you nerf composite, you can afford to have factional armor be just as good as comp currently is, provided you have to be overt to wear it. I don't think you have to nerf comp, though, to fix the profession and the way comp is everywhere. The most important and easiestthing to do would be to fix the lower end armors.

I get tons of orders for Ubese, as well I should. Not everyone can afford buffs all the time, and many casual players (whom this game was originally marketed towards) only have 30min-1 hour to play at a time, hardly worth shelling out 10-20k for buffs. That is why the lower HAM, high special resist armor is so great. If there were an Ubese equivalent for energy, I could sit in the Geo cave for hours and have a great time!

I also get lots of requrests for padded armor. I have to turn these down, noting that a) it takes some hard to get hides and materials and most importantly, b) it has really high HAM for the protection.

I would love Tantel, but can't wear the helmet, and get sick of the stat shifts. I mean, seriously, this has been a known bug for at least 9 months.

You could even make Marabi and Bone cool by adding an armor layer slot to thier adv. segments.

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Thread: A Composite World