Armorsmith Archive
Thread: Way to merge BE tissues in Armor, and make lower level armor more appealing.
lycanthropy
Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:40 pm
#14
well said my lovely goddess of the tailoring profession!
adding BE enchancements to armor will push us tailors back very far, and aswell make our prices for synthetic cloth, and any other components you need go up in price extremely. You need to rely on tailors for things, just as we rely on armorsmiths to give us full body plating when we need it. We craft clothing art for casual wear, field and formal wear, with a small amount of BE enchanced clothings, that is our special place of power we have, if you think you need to have it too, over the ability to create armor, then you
will have alot of tailors who will hate you.
you've already made my list of people i hate, want more tailors?
Meplorium
Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:28 pm
#15
There is a movement by tailors lead by the tailor correspondent to nerf both armor and all 20 some combat professions for their own greedy means. If armor got nerfed to the point where clothes would work just as well, then everyone will go jedi. Guess what, jedi don't wear anymore armor than they do tailor clothes.
This whole "Clothes should be as good as armor" is both stupid and self defeating. First the stupid part. Armor is for combat, period. You don't take a knife to a gun fight and you don't go to a gun fight unarmored. It is a realism thing and an immersion thing. In SW people used armor. I want to see people use armor in combat. Some used clothes yes, but those were the rebels that couldn't afford good armor.
It is self defeating because people are min/max players. You take away armor and it's resists then you nerf all the combat profession that rely on armor. That hurts many professions for the false hope of a few more sales. The reason it is false hope is because people are min/max players. That armor is what makes those other combat profession competitive with Jedi. Take that way and everyone goes Jedi. Don't worry, they can't wear armor or tailor made clothes or weaponsmith weapons.
Armor taking a hit to the level of clothing, or any hit for that matter, would kill may professions, including tailor. Lets review a few basics here.
Armorsmith - Battle Wear
Tailor - Social Wear
If you find that offense, easy solution, change professions. You can then make battle wear if you want. You can also go master tailor and master armorsmith and do both battle wear and social wear. There are enough skill points to do both and give you the freedom to do both. Forcing your own bias on the rest of the community is not the way to go nor do we want it.
This was brought up in the BE forum trying to get lower level armors more useful in combat. The BE/Tailors, believe it or not quite a few people do both, want the tissues exclusively for tailors so the idea got flamed pretty bad.
Either way the armorsmiths and all the non-jedi combat professions need to speak up against this tailor movement to nerf them. We need strong resistants to nerfing of armor and we need to find ways to get rid of the sea of composite at the mining outpost without nerfing most of the profession in this game. BE tissues making lower level armors more useful is one way to do so.
Meplorium
Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:42 pm
#16
Gyopi wrote:
No. The reason for BE clothing is that *most* people in the game do combat and people want some protection, either in the form of armor or some sort of enhanced clothing. Almost anyone who would wear enhanced clothing instead of armor would choose to use low encumberance enhanced armor if they could. They would be stupid not to!
The problem is there are no BE tissues that can help you when you get hit for 2k from a super battle droid in the DWB or corvette. The only think that helps is excellent composite. The trade off for that excellent composite is the HAM costs. BE clothing is a small enhancement for no cost. Even if you had those tissues in the lower end armors, that armor is still worthless when you get hit by that 2k shot. It may be useful for noobies that would go to such a dungeon or for range support people that would rather have the HAM and have armored meleers to tank. The problem is those enhancements just don't do much to protect you. So the whole clothes over armor aggruement is mute. Armor wins every time. There would need to be some serious enhancements done to tissues to get them to compete with armor. Then you get into the problem with tailors/BEs stilling business from armorsmiths.
The obvious solution would be something that helps out all 3 professions and combat players. That would be the low level armors using tailor components with BE tissues. Then all 3 professions take part in the battle ware market and no one is left out. It is that or everyone is left out while people play as jedis. Jedis will kill this game eventually, we don't need to help them. Armorsmiths and tailors really need to work together to have a product out there that can compete with those jedi robes.
Gyopi
Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:48 pm
#17
Meplorium wrote:
There is a movement by tailors lead by the tailor correspondent to nerf both armor and all 20 some combat professions for their own greedy means. If armor got nerfed to the point where clothes would work just as well, then everyone will go jedi. Guess what, jedi don't wear anymore armor than they do tailor clothes.
Ummm... Can you show me one place where the tailor correspondent called for armor and the combat professions to be nerfed? The only thing that has been argued against is *enhancing* armor at the expense of tailors. We want clothing to be a viable alternative to armor. For some reason you interpret this as meaning that we want to bring armor down to the effectiveness of clothing instead of what we really want, which is for clothing to be more useful than it is now. Most people wear armor right now because they do combat and clothing is not very effective in combat in most cases. They also never take it off because it takes buffs to put it back on again. Ideally people should be able to wear either armor or clothing without armor being the automatic choice. It should depend on the situation and maybe a combination of both is best. I don't think that anyone is saying that you should put on a set of clothing and go fight super battle droids or tuscan observers.
Gyopi
Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:54 pm
#18
Meplorium wrote:
The obvious solution would be something that helps out all 3 professions and combat players. That would be the low level armors using tailor components with BE tissues. Then all 3 professions take part in the battle ware market and no one is left out. It is that or everyone is left out while people play as jedis. Jedis will kill this game eventually, we don't need to help them. Armorsmiths and tailors really need to work together to have a product out there that can compete with those jedi robes.
No. Most armorsmiths have just enough tailor to make their own cloth (it does not take a master to make BE cloth and there is no advantage to being a master tailor for this) or if they are not, just ask their tailor friend for a cheap or free schematic. Tailors would be completely shut out. Also, the main point of being a tailor should not be to make components for other professions. Can you think of any other advanced crafting profession who's main job is to make components for other people? Yes, some make some compoents for other people, but it is not their main job. Droid engineers make droids. Armorsmiths make armor. Weaponsmiths make weapons. Chefs make food. BEs make pets and tissues (they are probably the closest to component makers). Tailors make *clothes*. Our main job is not to make cloth.
Iseabeil
Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:34 pm
#19
there is no reason why better clothing would harm the armour lovers. make clothing more viable in combat for professions where it would be a better choise, especially teras kasi. make BE clothes able to give you better speed based dodges and hits. if you dun have a ton of stuff on ye, yer more likely to jump away from a blow. if ye got hit, then it should hurt ofc. thus: clothin = better evade, lesser hits but more damage when hit. armour = slower evades, more hits, but lower damages made.
walking around as whats to be a martial art fighter in heavy armour makes me sick. im suposed to be speed based, not weight based.
armour WILL be nerfed anyways, with or without clothing improvments, that isnt tailors fault. and the BE reason for it is rather bad imo, as only reason i can see for it, is the fact AS are richer and will pay more for the tissues than tailors can afford.
RandDarkstar
Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:33 pm
#20
Just to make a point here. Almost every jedi I know on Gorath has ditched their jedi robes in favour of good BE clothing. The jedi robes are pathetic. The enhanced regen is good *AFTER* the battle, but not during it.
Meplorium
Wed Aug 25, 2004 1:03 am
#21
Currently the only thing that stops damage is armor. That resist comes at a cost, HAM costs,something clothing doesn't have.The melee defense can help to some extent, but you will get hit sooner or later. The rest of the tissues don't helpin protecting you. The only way clothing will become a 'viable alternative' to armor is for armor to fall way down. That is what the tailors are banking on and quote the Devs about armor being nerfed all the time. So you just said that tailors want armor nerfed so they can take over that market. You answered your own question as to where this coming fromin your own statement.
Gyopi wrote:
Meplorium wrote:
There is a movement by tailors lead by the tailor correspondent to nerf both armor and all 20 some combat professions for their own greedy means. If armor got nerfed to the point where clothes would work just as well, then everyone will go jedi. Guess what, jedi don't wear anymore armor than they do tailor clothes.
Ummm... Can you show me one place where the tailor correspondent called for armor and the combat professions to be nerfed? The only thing that has been argued against is *enhancing* armor at the expense of tailors. We want clothing to be a viable alternative to armor. For some reason you interpret this as meaning that we want to bring armor down to the effectiveness of clothing instead of what we really want, which is for clothing to be more useful than it is now. Most people wear armor right now because they do combat and clothing is not very effective in combat in most cases. They also never take it off because it takes buffs to put it back on again. Ideally people should be able to wear either armor or clothing without armor being the automatic choice. It should depend on the situation and maybe a combination of both is best. I don't think that anyone is saying that you should put on a set of clothing and go fight super battle droids or tuscan observers.
So there you go. Two different ways to take a statement. You wish to take in one way, I see it as another way. If you want to craft combat clothes, become an armorsmith. It is that simple. Your skill points and your are free to do with them as you see fit. Don't nerf a lot of professions just so you can play another profession with one you already have. If you want to play an armorsmith, spend the skill points to do so.
Gyopi
Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:18 am
#22
Meplorium wrote:
Currently the only thing that stops damage is armor. That resist comes at a cost, HAM costs,something clothing doesn't have.The melee defense can help to some extent, but you will get hit sooner or later. The rest of the tissues don't helpin protecting you. The only way clothing will become a 'viable alternative' to armor is for armor to fall way down. That is what the tailors are banking on and quote the Devs about armor being nerfed all the time. So you just said that tailors want armor nerfed so they can take over that market. You answered your own question as to where this coming fromin your own statement.
So there you go. Two different ways to take a statement. You wish to take in one way, I see it as another way. If you want to craft combat clothes, become an armorsmith. It is that simple. Your skill points and your are free to do with them as you see fit. Don't nerf a lot of professions just so you can play another profession with one you already have. If you want to play an armorsmith, spend the skill points to do so.
Well first of all, I *am* an armorsmith as wellas a tailor and a BE (two different accounts)and second of all, you seem to either refuse to or not be able to listen.You believe that no matter what they do to clothing there is no possible way that it can ever be viable in combat. For some reason you believe that what the devs have said about armor and the combat rebalance (whatever is going to happen) is a direct result of what tailors want (you know, they always listen to tailors. That is why we haven't gotten anything new since the beginning of the game). You are also not understanding what the definition of "nerf" is. When you nerf something, you take something away from it. No one has asked for that. The arguement is whether something should be *added* to armor. If there was BE armor in the past (except for those few days when it was a bug) and then they took it away, *that* would be a nerf. Asking for something not to be improved is not a nerf. We do not wish tailor to be a something that it is not worth taking more than novice and two levels of field wear in (to make cloth for armorsmiths). I am not sure of what is so hard to understand.
JonMichael
Wed Aug 25, 2004 7:04 am
#23
Meplorium wrote:
There is a movement by tailors lead by the tailor correspondent to nerf both armor and all 20 some combat professions for their own greedy means. If armor got nerfed to the point where clothes would work just as well, then everyone will go jedi. Guess what, jedi don't wear anymore armor than they do tailor clothes.
This whole "Clothes should be as good as armor" is both stupid and self defeating. First the stupid part. Armor is for combat, period. You don't take a knife to a gun fight and you don't go to a gun fight unarmored. It is a realism thing and an immersion thing. In SW people used armor. I want to see people use armor in combat. Some used clothes yes, but those were the rebels that couldn't afford good armor.
It is self defeating because people are min/max players. You take away armor and it's resists then you nerf all the combat profession that rely on armor. That hurts many professions for the false hope of a few more sales. The reason it is false hope is because people are min/max players. That armor is what makes those other combat profession competitive with Jedi. Take that way and everyone goes Jedi. Don't worry, they can't wear armor or tailor made clothes or weaponsmith weapons.
Armor taking a hit to the level of clothing, or any hit for that matter, would kill may professions, including tailor. Lets review a few basics here.
Armorsmith - Battle Wear
Tailor - Social Wear
If you find that offense, easy solution, change professions. You can then make battle wear if you want. You can also go master tailor and master armorsmith and do both battle wear and social wear. There are enough skill points to do both and give you the freedom to do both. Forcing your own bias on the rest of the community is not the way to go nor do we want it.
This was brought up in the BE forum trying to get lower level armors more useful in combat. The BE/Tailors, believe it or not quite a few people do both, want the tissues exclusively for tailors so the idea got flamed pretty bad.
Either way the armorsmiths and all the non-jedi combat professions need to speak up against this tailor movement to nerf them. We need strong resistants to nerfing of armor and we need to find ways to get rid of the sea of composite at the mining outpost without nerfing most of the profession in this game. BE tissues making lower level armors more useful is one way to do so.
Where do you get your information? I've been a Master Tailor for quite some time and have never heard of any movement like this. What you're mistaking as a Tailor movement against Armor and the combat professions is actually us trying to save our profession against people like you who are trying to get the BE profession to be needed by the AS profession.
I was involved in a thread on the BE forum where you yourself stated that tissues should be implemented into Armor. Even your own BE correspondent and other BE's were against your attack on the Tailoring profession.
I myself, and I'm sure there are many many tailors who agree with me are trying to keep our profession a viable, needed one within our community. Please don't try and say we're trying to nerf other professions when it's you yourself who's trying to do that to tailors just to expand yours.
'JonMichael- Master Tailor/Master Image Designer
Boooozark
Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:10 am
#24
NJ62 wrote:
This draft has been revised based on your suggestions. Let me know if I'm missing anything.
Tailoring: Correspondent Summit notes
Combat
In general, some tailors prefer to cater to the combat crowd by offering bioengineered clothing or clothing with sockets.
Balance with Armor
Tailors want to be able to compete with armor. As it stands there are no real disadvantages to wearing armor, and no strategic incentives to wear clothing.
This could be solved by doing the following:
- Create more of a penalty for wearing armor. A penalty might include a weapon speed decrease, or a run speed decrease. In particular, some classes should be more penalized than others. For example, teras kasi artists, known for their quick movements, should actually be more effective when not wearing heavy armor because they rely upon speed and mobility to fight.
- Create scenarios where armor wearing is not the best option strategically
- Tweak buffs so that armor is not as easy to wear
- Give very low protection stats to clothing so that it's more desirable than wearing underpants in battle
- Improve clothing stats so that it's more desirable (see below)
Bioengineered Gear: New Tissues
Tailors want additional choices for bioengineered goods.
In particular, as discussed above, they want tissues that compete with the skill tapes. This makes sense because if decay is working properly, skill tapes will decay as well, and they are extremely rare.
Additionally, there need to be more options to make bioengineered tissues attractive for all classes, and tailors want more class-specific tissues.
Suggestions include:
- Defenses: Poison, disease, knockdown, blind, dizzy, fire
- terrain negotiation
- droid tracking for BH
- combat medicine effectiveness
- ranged defenses
- ranged aim bonuses
Well seems the tailors at least want part of the armorsmith market.
THIS WILL HAPPEN OVER MY DEAD FEET (sorry don't have lekku)
Srednii
Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:03 am
#25
jeebus, were none of you noobs around when that bug hit that let us put bio tissues in armor? The devs fixed that BUG, and then told us that putting bio bonuses in armor would be overpowering and that it will NEVER happen.
Just drop it allready.
Gyopi
Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:47 am
#26
Boooozark wrote:
Balance with Armor
Tailors want to be able to compete with armor. As it stands there are no real disadvantages to wearing armor, and no strategic incentives to wear clothing.
This could be solved by doing the following:
- Create more of a penalty for wearing armor. A penalty might include a weapon speed decrease, or a run speed decrease. In particular, some classes should be more penalized than others. For example, teras kasi artists, known for their quick movements, should actually be more effective when not wearing heavy armor because they rely upon speed and mobility to fight.
This has been pulled out of context. These are notes for the combat rebalance summit and she is supposed to talk about how tailors can be involved in the combat rebalance. These are ideas of how tailors could be involved in the combat side of things. What is she supposed to do? Fly to Austin and tell them that tailors don't want anything to do with combat and we just want to make the dancers pretty? That would be a complete waste of time. You will notice that these are not ideas that are now or have ever been in our top 5.
To tell the truth, I think a lot of tailors would like to be able to sell to combat people since that is the majority of the people who are still playing the game. Furthermore, with the decay system as it is now, it is only the combat folks who will ever have their clothes decay and buy new ones. Entertainers want new clothes, but because of hologrinding they are really poor. People don't expect to pay for services like being healed or getting mind buffs anymore because they think that "giving XP" is enough. I know that in the 2months that I was a master dancer that I made a total of 20K and could not afford to be one of my tailoring customers.