CUEmu - Thread Posts

atomicdog

Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:15 pm

Science fiction, science fantasy, or science fact all are seperated by a very thin line that changes over time. Great example of this is an Ion purpulsion system used in many Sci-fi series StarWars and StarTrek being 2 of the most well know. This did become science fact just look at the NASA site for DS-1. Just my 2 cents on that theme going through this thread.

Now as for the main topic of the thread, Armor.

The armor certs are a great idea. It will prevent what we have currently with everyone being limited to one type of armor. I would like to see opening up the look of the armor a bit more so it is not so obvious that player x is wearing a type of armor. This would also allow for people to get the look they want while they get the protection suitable for thier skills. Maybe even add in a very low level, maybe even no protection, armor type that can be used just for looks.

Elemental damage is not bad either. Sci-fi does take a bit of creative license with technology but is fairly balanced as it has been described. If it were up to me it would have been a bit different. Kinetic being sub catigoized by piecing cutting blunt types. While energy being split heat, electrical, sonic. for a quick example. Would also got more with a rock paper scissors type of arangement instead or a system of directly oposed forces.

would also allow armor to convert the damage that gets through. RL example if your a standard gun does more of its damage through kinetic means mainly a piercing through someone/something. If someone is shot by a gun wearing body armor, Kevlar vest. The kevlar prevents penitration and metal plates disburse the force. converting a prenitrating force to a blunt force. many people discribing getting shoot while wearing a vest discribe it like getting hit in the chest with a bat.

Just my opinion.

Message Edited by atomicdog on 04-02-2005 04:20 PM

Helping the player based economy, One speeder at a time.

silversaber

Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:21 pm

#171

The new toolbar graphics isNOT Starwars.

The newsound of the blasters is NOT Starwars.

The newRebel ArmorisNOT Starwars.

The newparticle effectsgraphics for special movesisNOT Starwars.

Cramming theexisting professions into Fantasy-based MMORPGroles is NOT Starwars. (I mean,Smugglers asMezzers and Pistoleers as CC, Cmon get with the movies!)

The Devs seriously NEEDS to step back, take a big breath, Forget allabout EQ2 and WoW,and watch Episodes 4-6 (I chose those episodes because thats the timeline this game is based)a good five times or MORE.

Devs, you need to add MORE Starwarsy sounds and graphicsfrom the movies. The sound of the Speeders in-game has been innacurate FROM THE GET GO.

Have L A reach into thier sound effects and musicvault and USE whats in it.

People want to play in the Starwars Universe as seen in the movies. Forget about the EU, just watch the movies.

Please dont destroy this game and make it a clone of EQ/WoW with a slight Starwars flavor. Watch the movies. Learn from them. Use them as a Bible from which this game should be based.

Spetc

Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:38 pm

#172

silversaber wrote:

The newRebel ArmorisNOT Starwars.

Go imperial. =D

silversaber

Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:49 pm

#173

Spetc wrote:

silversaber wrote:

The newRebel ArmorisNOT Starwars.

Go imperial. =D

That STILL allows players to wear it in the game, and I wil have to see it all the time.

To me, its even MORE non-Starwarsy than the new toolbar icons.

riotcontrol

Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:00 pm

#174

silversaber wrote:

Spetc wrote:

silversaber wrote:

The new Rebel Armor is NOT Starwars.

Go imperial. =D

That STILL allows players to wear it in the game, and I wil have to see it all the time.
To me, its even MORE non-Starwarsy than the new toolbar icons.

With our luck, if they ever add the proper OT Rebel outfits as factional armor/uniforms, the certs will be somewhere in the Chef, Swordsman, Imperial Pilot and Force Defender skill trees.

__
wieland argosy <gunslinger>

Tobar

Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:15 pm

#175

Blixtev wrote:

Starcloud wrote:

Blixtev,

I'd really appreciate it if in the next meeting you would point out to everyone that this is Star Wars, not Star Fantasy, and find some way of getting away from the Fantasy mindset of "elemental magics in opposition."

From the magazine of the same name see Science Fantasy (magazine)

"Science fantasy is the merging of science fiction and fantasy, two popular genres of writing. The two are notoriously difficult to define, and possibly even more difficult to distinguish. One might claim that science fiction provides a scientific explanation for all phenomena, whereas fantasy mostly takes the supernatural for granted. However, the "science" behind these explanations is often no more than mumbo-jumbo, especially in the pulp magazines. Hence, it might be said that the difference is more one of stage props: on the one hand we have spacecraft and phasers, on the other hand magic carpets and wands of smiting.

Now, since Arthur C. Clarke claims that "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic", this distinction also becomes blurred, and the area in which it is most blurred is science fantasy. Here, we find the props that are typical for fantasy explained in a manner typical for science fiction: monsters become aliens, and magic artifacts become relics of forgotten science.

The Martian stories of Leigh Brackett might be regarded as science fantasy, as well as M. John Harrison's Viriconium novels, or Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun. Many works by Edgar Rice Burroughs, especially his Barsoom novels, clearly fall into this category. Terry Brooks' world depicted in "The Sword of Shannara" sits on this line as well. Perhaps the most well-known example of science fantasy is Star Wars. "

That still doesn't leave it open to adding these new weird, distracting and immersion breaking effects for hitting things. In the Star Wars films when something was shot there was no weird looking lensflare emiting from the guy. If anything it was a shower of sparks. When you hit something melee there should be a sound to confirm that you hit something which there already was, you don't need to see a huge glowing white target sign shooting out whenever you hit something it's not only over kill it's ugly and distracting. We want realistic effects not these new cartoony things. We play SWG because it's not only Star Wars but because it is/was different from other MMO's. We want realism not cartoonism.

Liamo

Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:22 pm

#176

Ihareo wrote:

Liamo wrote:

Have you noticed one thing that is missing from almost every devs welcome posts? How many times they've seen the Star Wars movies or anything other than "I liked/loved the movies".

I'm not convinced the devs are more than casual fans of Star Wars. To a lot of them, this is just another movie-based game.

I know a lot of them play but how many know the ins and outs of the Star Wars universe?

Definately not a lot of the art department-they can't even draw things right (no centerpoint station, Maw, Kessel etc). If the dev team was populated by a lot of fans, this stuff would've never been suggested. It's hard to change artwork now but it should've been done right in the first place.

The "elemental" graphics are coming from the same mentality.

To the person that asked why are we getting so upset since elemental damage has been in since launch, well my answer is this; We used to just call them damage types. "Elemental" was never used in SWG. Now we have Mezzing creeping into SWG vocabulary. Thi sjust shows these devs would be better on a Lord or the Rings MMORPG than Star Wars.

Message Edited by Liamo on 04-02-2005 02:31 PM

Fair enough. But is the current slang really worth all this? In6 monthsthey'll be calling it somthing else but it will still be the same, and it will still have been around since before EQ2. Not to mention that 'elemental damage types' and 'mezzers' are just as much of a slang fad as 'clone of EQ2'

It's called Fad DYnamics, and it applies to language just as much as it applies to the 'in' brand of jeans.

So I have to ask you this, is the current 'in' slang what makes SWG a clone of EQ2, even though the things you're saying are cloned have been around since before EQ2? And if not, than what defines SWG? Is it a 'innovative system' that is broken all to hell? Or is it the Star Wars brand name? Or is it us, the players?

Message Edited by Ihareo on 04-02-2005 11:48 AM

I think the fact they are using fantasy game slang, where none was used before, is scaring people. I'ven ever played EQ or EQ2 so I can't really valaidate if this is true-I just find it strange that they've never used these terms in 3 years and now they are.

They get rid of Tyrant and don't even tell us who is his replacement, and now I hear, second hand, it's someone from EQ2.

The lack of Dev communication lately is really contributing to all of this. They can stop it if they want to-they just meet us with silence.

As to your last question "What defines SWG?" Well, if it weren't Star Wars, I'd never be here ( I have no interest in one other MMORPG) and the people have made it more enjoyable.

However, you remove the Star Wars from it, I'm gone-I can always meet new people but there is only one Star Wars MMORPG. The balance of the professions also make it unique, crafting, entertaining and Combat. With the new publish, Entertainers are being removed (at least other than eye candy) and crafters are going to be greatly handicapped by increased mob strength.

I do hope the devs learn the lessons from Tyrant and Calandryll when it comes to customer service and listening to us because JTL turned out great when they did that-along with every publish up to 12.1-then the wall of silence and "we know better than you" hit us again.

I want it back, I want openess and I certainly hope they listen to us on the upgrade-not everything because things ARE broken butpunishing the people that have been here for 2 plus years is not the way to fix it.

I support removing combat classes if keeping them in results in a "dumbed down" game
- I support Devs that know how to design a game

ViperOSU

Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:37 pm

#177

Blixtev wrote:

Starcloud wrote:

Blixtev,

I'd really appreciate it if in the next meeting you would point out to everyone that this is Star Wars, not Star Fantasy, and find some way of getting away from the Fantasy mindset of "elemental magics in opposition."

From the magazine of the same name see Science Fantasy (magazine)

"Science fantasy is the merging of science fiction and fantasy, two popular genres of writing. The two are notoriously difficult to define, and possibly even more difficult to distinguish. One might claim that science fiction provides a scientific explanation for all phenomena, whereas fantasy mostly takes the supernatural for granted. However, the "science" behind these explanations is often no more than mumbo-jumbo, especially in the pulp magazines. Hence, it might be said that the difference is more one of stage props: on the one hand we have spacecraft and phasers, on the other hand magic carpets and wands of smiting.

Now, since Arthur C. Clarke claims that "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic", this distinction also becomes blurred, and the area in which it is most blurred is science fantasy. Here, we find the props that are typical for fantasy explained in a manner typical for science fiction: monsters become aliens, and magic artifacts become relics of forgotten science.

The Martian stories of Leigh Brackett might be regarded as science fantasy, as well as M. John Harrison's Viriconium novels, or Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun. Many works by Edgar Rice Burroughs, especially his Barsoom novels, clearly fall into this category. Terry Brooks' world depicted in "The Sword of Shannara" sits on this line as well. Perhaps the most well-known example of science fantasy is Star Wars. "

Not to be offensive to you at all B, but I could not disagree more.

What makes Star Wars so wonderful is the fact that it exists in such a REAL, honest feeling universe.

To take Star Wars and turn it into magic, takes the Star Wars feel out of it.

How can Star Wars BE Star Wars if it looses the feeling of Star Wars.

How can something continue to be, if it ceases being WHAT it is?

Captain Slyynyk

The Crazed Wookie

Master Rifleman / Former Master Smuggler

Member of the Crazy Chemists Gang

"Oh No! Slyy's on everybody stop talking about him in guild chat." - Saxamaphone

erli

Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:39 pm

#178

Stop debating the semantics of science fiction and fantasy. The topic is armor Certifications.

Back on topic, armor certifications. They are removing choices and options available to a large segment of the players with this change. I understand that few people use the current full variety of armors available and see why. I understand how this will FORCE people into wearing a wider range of armors. I grasp that no one armor will be expressly "better" than all others or "the best". Our current and prievous concepts of armor have been changed so that the three categories of armor are more beneficial to specific professions and the role they fill in combat.

I take issue with it being told to us as greater options when in many regards it is less.

Non-Combat Characters - Will no longer be able to equip armor without certification. Rangers, Doctors, Smugglers and Creature Handlers can all wear battle armor but pure crafters (armorsmiths too), entertainers, and the other social professions will be unable to equip any armor without certifications found in combat classes. Until a mythical Non-Combat Upgrade/Rebalance arrives they also will receive no compensation in the form of reworked skill point costs, nor even (currently) a respec for their non-combat abilities to pick up a combat profession to retain their ability to wear armor.

Master Elite Combat & Master Elite Crafting/Entertainers/Social - Should one choose, the ability to have these templates will still exist. A player may have to sacrifice some of their alternate abilities to maintain this template (FS, Scout, Med., or Merchant skills being the most common) but they will still be able to maintain some effectiveness in both areas. This will open up choices of armor in 1 of the 3 "types" (Recon, Battle, or Assault). For Wookiees and Ithorians who go this routethey will only ever get to wear one suit of armor, one choice. The well balanced character, like the non-combat character, will receive no compensation for the sacrifices they are making under this new system. This puts an overabundant emphasis on the multiple Elite Combat Profession Characters (as defined by the CU) and makes the two aforementioned template types less than desirable.

Dual/Multiple Elite Combat Characters - Any way you slice it these characters get the ultimate in armor certification and therefore "choice". I understand that a character that Masters multiple combat professions should indeed have an advantage over someone who only masters one or none in combat (PvP and PvE). But, there is no reason that advantage should be choice of armor skins available and not effectiveness fighting while wearing different armors. Even if, as Blixtev's TKA/Commando example suggests, the various Armor mitigation stats do not stack with one another, there will still be competitive unbalance with regards to armor and defense. So instead of "stacking" stats you are stacking options of how best to deal with an opponent. If on the other hand players are able to combine Mitigation states it becomes even more unbalanced as everyone would be working toward mitigating hinderance by combining professions with the same armor cert to minimize the cost in battle of wearing armor. With a full respecification already guaranteed a character with all skill points currently invested in professions falling under "Combat" in the CU will be able to minimize the effects this all has and have the greatest options of how to acclimate to all the changes.

Shifting the imbalances from within Combat professions to a Combat vs. Crafting/Social professions is not correcting the issue. Why is it not allowed for anyone to wear any armor just with different effects based on profession? The option to wear any of the three types should still exist, how effective you are while wearing it should be what is determined by your profession. Each profession could have an Armor they are proficient in, an armorthey can wear without additional benefit or penalty, and an armor that they are deficient in and recieve a greater penalty to wear. Crafting or social characters could be certed to wear any armor, but without combat skills only recieve additional penalty/hinderance while wearing it.

I realize I am not yet operating with full working knowledge of all the changes to be implemented and that many more changes will occur between now and when all this goes Live. I am merely trying to look forward using information currently given and see how it affects the game that for the last two years I've had a good time playing. This isn't whining or an argument that my overpowered character won't be able to dominate once this goes Live. It is concern that certain playstyles are being pushed to the wayside in an effort to make All Combat Characters the end all be all of SWG. Choices are being removed yet being touted as being added, limitations placed on how I can look as opposed to how I fight. Overall, I am in favor of many of the changes I've seen and played with on TC5, Armor and Weapon Certifications disallowing equiping of non-proficient armor is not one aspect I support at all. Please, review these changes carefully as they have larger affects on characters not being encompassed in this large CU endeavor.

thanks

erli

Liamo

Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:49 pm

#179

I read it earlier that Tyrants replacement came from EQ2, who is this replacement and when was it announced?

I support removing combat classes if keeping them in results in a "dumbed down" game
- I support Devs that know how to design a game

GraySeven

Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:52 pm

#180

Where, pray tell, does SWG resemble EQ2? I don't see it, and haven't seen it.

Colorful icons for special moves? So what. It'll be nice to have something that doesn't look like everything else on my tool bar. Elemental damage types? We've had those since launch only now they simply changed their effects.

Don't try to explain to me why elemental acid in a beam weapon isn't possible. None of what we see is possible, thats why its fantasy. Lightsabers can only exist under a circumstance where the device creating the blade is powered by a battery with an energy output equal to our Sun! (Yes, a physics major actually worked out the real science and math on this). We can't travel faster than the speed of light, there are no little critters in our blood that let us do magic things...

Its a freaking game! Its make believe. Its not REAL!

Game mechanics require certain sacrifices. The mechanics require things be done a certain way.

Just because some things resemble something from another SOE game does not make it a carbon copy of that game. What did you expect, that they create from scratch every time? Heck no, they're going to take what works.

I'll be glad when the lot of you leave for WoW or whatever game you choose that will let you have everything for nothing...listening to nothing but endless whinning because the changes take away your ability to kill everything with a macro while you watch Kids Next Door on Nickleodeon...its sad.

Its been less than 48 hours, and people are griping about the sound? Do you really believe that you are listening to the final sound, seeing the final graphics, playing with the final stats on the weapons and creatures? No, you aren't and you won't be til the week before launch. Just like any Beta, the basics get perfected, then the flash gets added.

You all need to wait a few weeks before yelling and screaming that things are broken. As far as I'm concerned, this game has been broken since launch and its finally getting the fix it needs to keep it a viable game. I'll still be here, enjoy wherever you end up.

Vahl Arturin - Elder Ranger, Elder Bounty Hunter, Elder Rifleman
&
Vaylis Arturin - Elder Armorsmith
Starsider
"The burning is love"

riotcontrol

Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:59 pm

#181

GraySeven wrote:
Its a freaking game! Its make believe. Its not REAL!

It is a 'freaking game' set within a SF/fantasy/whatever-you-want-to-call-it universe with its own rules, its own technology (which is described in detail and very well thought out, if I may add), and a lot of documented 'how stuff works' material, already available in a few RPG rulesets as well as in the official Star Wars databank at the starwars.com website.

There is absolutely no excuse to break these rules and invent new ones when a perfectly good game can still be made within the rules those of us who are actually familiar with them know and love.

__
wieland argosy <gunslinger>

Qui-Gonzalez

Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:12 pm

#182

Blixtev wrote:

Starcloud wrote:

Blixtev,

I'd really appreciate it if in the next meeting you would point out to everyone that this is Star Wars, not Star Fantasy, and find some way of getting away from the Fantasy mindset of "elemental magics in opposition."

From the magazine of the same name see Science Fantasy (magazine)

"Science fantasy is the merging of science fiction and fantasy, two popular genres of writing. The two are notoriously difficult to define, and possibly even more difficult to distinguish. One might claim that science fiction provides a scientific explanation for all phenomena, whereas fantasy mostly takes the supernatural for granted. However, the "science" behind these explanations is often no more than mumbo-jumbo, especially in the pulp magazines. Hence, it might be said that the difference is more one of stage props: on the one hand we have spacecraft and phasers, on the other hand magic carpets and wands of smiting.

Now, since Arthur C. Clarke claims that "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic", this distinction also becomes blurred, and the area in which it is most blurred is science fantasy. Here, we find the props that are typical for fantasy explained in a manner typical for science fiction: monsters become aliens, and magic artifacts become relics of forgotten science.

The Martian stories of Leigh Brackett might be regarded as science fantasy, as well as M. John Harrison's Viriconium novels, or Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun. Many works by Edgar Rice Burroughs, especially his Barsoom novels, clearly fall into this category. Terry Brooks' world depicted in "The Sword of Shannara" sits on this line as well. Perhaps the most well-known example of science fantasy is Star Wars. "

I might jive with you on this save for one thing.....Lucas already established much of the lore in Star Wars. There is no magic, there is the Force. People are not paying for magic carpets and wands of smiting. People are paying for T-21 rifles, Stormtroopers, Lightsabers, DL-44 blasters and the like. Don't you agree that if we had wanted Everquest 2 or WoW, we would be paying for them? The point you are missing here, Blixtev, is that SWG was different from anything else out there, and it is that difference that people are still playing and paying for. If we had wanted thinly veiled attempts at Dungeons and Dragons, many of us would wait on D&D Online or play one of SOE's Fantasy platforms. ]

Through all of the glitz and glamour you are trying to bring, don't lost sight of the fact that this is Star Wars first. As long as SOE keeps bringing in the money for LA, you will still have a job. If people are disappointed in the CU and start leaving, or new money dries up, things will either change or the platform will be shut down.

I am with many others in "Wait and See" mode, but some of the things do not look very Star Warsy.

Gonz
~ Eclipse's resident Stick-in-the-Mud!~
The "Edit" feature is of the Dark Side..

Armorsmith Archive

Thread: The thing people have been waiting for: What armors are certified for which professions.