Architect Archive
Thread: /pay command isn't working on harvs and factories + arguing with Pawlin thread
Ardelis wrote:
If your already on the beach drinking a corona
This is the Best point you have made all discussion ... 
Nothing like being on the beach drinking Corona...
Ardelis wrote:
Furthermore, lot swappers only help, so why all the fuss? You act like lot swappers are a plague, they help make crafted items more readily available at a lower price, and crafters can spend more time crafting and less time mining. you can make all the arguments you want, Lot Swap miners have benefits that drastically out weigh the downsides (still looking for one)..............
Ardelis wrote:
Furthermore, lot swappers only help, so why all the fuss? You act like lot swappers are a plague, they help make crafted items more readily available at a lower price, and crafters can spend more time crafting and less time mining. you can make all the arguments you want, Lot Swap miners have benefits that drastically out weigh the downsides (still looking for one)..............
Well now this is a matter of personal opinion. And I entirely understand if people disagree here.
1 lot swapper can do the job that it would take 20 individuals cooperating together coulddo. Lot swapping is more efficient. Lot swapping reduces prices. These are good things. I don't deny that.
However, I'd prefer to have 20 people playing the game doing things actively instead of just that 1 guy. That 1 guy could instead run a thriving business with a bunch of employees. Or that 1 guy could coordinate an active guild who shares lots. I think these are better things for the game. If we get more people actively involved then the game thrives.
The more lot swapping, the fewer competitors. If lot swapping cuts the prices down to the bare bones then it is difficult for smaller people to compete and remain profitable. A lot swapper selling finished harvesters for 2 cpu could effectively squeeze out much of the smaller competition. This is fair free market competition, but its not much fun to be a small guy and try and build a business in that environment. Sure we could say he should just get lot swaps too but there is a limited market and it can only support so many people.
To be clear, I have nothing against lot swappers. They are just playing the game and doing so in an efficient manner. I can't blame them for doing so. It just a game design thing, not a 'I hate lot swappers' thing. I know a lot of folks that do lot swap and they're cool folks and I certainly don't dislike them for it. So don't take it personal.
Well now this is a matter of personal opinion. And I entirely understand if people disagree here.
1 lot swapper can do the job that it would take 20 individuals cooperating together coulddo. Lot swapping is more efficient. Lot swapping reduces prices. These are good things. I don't deny that.
However, I'd prefer to have 20 people playing the game doing things actively instead of just that 1 guy. That 1 guy could instead run a thriving business with a bunch of employees. Or that 1 guy could coordinate an active guild who shares lots. I think these are better things for the game. If we get more people actively involved then the game thrives.
20 people won't do the same thing, I lot swap becuase its very profitable, if lot swapping were to stop, i wouldn't keep the 8 mines to contribute to the cause, i would up root them and lay out a guild hall.
The more lot swapping, the fewer competitors. If lot swapping cuts the prices down to the bare bones then it is difficult for smaller people to compete and remain profitable. A lot swapper selling finished harvesters for 2 cpu could effectively squeeze out much of the smaller competition. This is fair free market competition, but its not much fun to be a small guy and try and build a business in that environment. Sure we could say he should just get lot swaps too but there is a limited market and it can only support so many people.
False. Lot swappers compete amongst each other. We are high volume dealers, High Volume = Low prices, always. Check out your local bazaar prices, then go to a bulk vendor................
To be clear, I have nothing against lot swappers. They are just playing the game and doing so in an efficient manner. I can't blame them for doing so. It just a game design thing, not a 'I hate lot swappers' thing. I know a lot of folks that do lot swap and they're cool folks and I certainly don't dislike them for it. So don't take it personal.
I hope not. Even though we make tons of cash, have you ever had the luxury of operating a massive amount of harvestors? We earn every penny in real life hours, and we spend it. Would you want the US government to limit all steel mining to inflate the prices of cars and refrigerators in an attempt to help the economy? Everyone benefits in bulk.
Like it was said already, before lot swapping, resources were much more expensive. Someone else said that they can craft cheaper buy mining their own resources, what are you crafting? cdef's? Miners have competition as well, which is why i have to sale my ore 1.5-2 cpu. Everyone benefits, all crafted items are cheaper, unless your crafting CDEF's and using your toon to sample in the ground to extract the resources.
Ardelis wrote:
However, I'd prefer to have 20 people playing the game doing things actively instead of just that 1 guy. That 1 guy could instead run a thriving business with a bunch of employees. Or that 1 guy could coordinate an active guild who shares lots. I think these are better things for the game. If we get more people actively involved then the game thrives.
20 people won't do the same thing, I lot swap becuase its very profitable, if lot swapping were to stop, i wouldn't keep the 8 mines to contribute to the cause, i would up root them and lay out a guild hall.
If lot swapping stopped then the demand for resources would not stop. You might stop lot swapping but that would be because you don't want to do other ways of mining. Other people can and will step in to do mining if prices increase.
The more lot swapping, the fewer competitors. If lot swapping cuts the prices down to the bare bones then it is difficult for smaller people to compete and remain profitable. A lot swapper selling finished harvesters for 2 cpu could effectively squeeze out much of the smaller competition. This is fair free market competition, but its not much fun to be a small guy and try and build a business in that environment. Sure we could say he should just get lot swaps too but there is a limited market and it can only support so many people.
False. Lot swappers compete amongst each other. We are high volume dealers, High Volume = Low prices, always. Check out your local bazaar prices, then go to a bulk vendor................
What is false? Of course lot swappers compete with each other. They compete to the point of cutting prices down to the bone that noboby else can compete. Competing well will kill your competitors. Its like how Home Depot and Lowes compete. That competiton cuts prices down to the point that they only make a small profit margin. But through their volume they can make a good amount of money. This leaves room for only those 2 competitors. The problem is that it makes it so no other hardware stores can really stay in business because they are too small to stay alive with a 1% margin.
To be clear, I have nothing against lot swappers. They are just playing the game and doing so in an efficient manner. I can't blame them for doing so. It just a game design thing, not a 'I hate lot swappers' thing. I know a lot of folks that do lot swap and they're cool folks and I certainly don't dislike them for it. So don't take it personal.
I hope not. Even though we make tons of cash, have you ever had the luxury of operating a massive amount of harvestors? We earn every penny in real life hours, and we spend it. Would you want the US government to limit all steel mining to inflate the prices of cars and refrigerators in an attempt to help the economy? Everyone benefits in bulk.
Sure lot swappers work hard. I didn't say they didn't. But its one person working hard to make good money instead of 10 or 20 working together towards the same goal.
Like it was said already, before lot swapping, resources were much more expensive. Someone else said that they can craft cheaper buy mining their own resources, what are you crafting? cdef's? Miners have competition as well, which is why i have to sale my ore 1.5-2 cpu. Everyone benefits, all crafted items are cheaper, unless your crafting CDEF's and using your toon to sample in the ground to extract the resources.
No the little guys squeezed out of the market do not benefit.
The 40 small architects that can't make a living cause the market is eaten up by the 2-4 biggest guys do not beneift.
There is a limited market place. The people who don't benefit are the 10-20 crafters that cant compete in the market because prices are so low and the big guys eat up all the demand.
Its unfortunate and also a good thing that this is a free economy. Unfortunate because people can and *will* take advantage of every opportunity to be the "best", even if it is at the expense of another person. Its good though because otherwise it would be an NPC vendor market, and I wouldn't have any interest in playing that.
Lot Swappers fit into a category populated with larger guilds who all cooperate to run a heavy industry. The biggest difference is, as has already been pointed out, that a lot swapper is generally only one person. One person gets the same (or better) results than a larger Guild.
Which of those 2 is better for the whole game? The *whole* game? Which one gives many people a challenging and engaging GAME to play. Which one lets lots ofpeople participate in the Mining business?
Now, which one squeezes out lots of people because they cannot compete. Which one makes it "normal" to see thousands of the best of everything on dozens of vendors all over the galaxy?
Bah, this topic is as old as the activity, and it will die only when the Devs get up the courage to fix it. Bottom line is no one is exploiting. They are playing the game in a way the Devs did not intend (yes they said this). When lot swaps go away, in a month, a year a decade, whatever, there will be much screaming and crying. The market will adjust, and the game will grow. With the need for more people to keep up with demand, subscriptions will go up, people will spend more time in game, and a lot more people will get to do things other than BH missions. Oh yeah, and loot prices will go down to an only slightly ridiculous price.
Sure I suppose a lot of the materials I buy now are from lot swappers. But that doesn't mean the market needs lot swapping.
Glad to see your supporting us. Doesn't mean its not a benefit to the market either.
I drive my car to work but that does not mean that I NEED a drive my car to work.
you don't NEED the car, you NEED the work : )
Just because lot swapping exists now does not mean we need it.
Strong argument, does it mean we don't?
If the lot swapping went away tomorrow then the market would have to figure out another way to provide the needed resources.. Prices may go up. There might be short term scarcity. We've seen this before during the hologrind and then for a period at JTL launch. The market will adjust.
Then why are you arguing against lot swapping? The market would figure out a way. Crafters would lower their factory count, making room for harvestors, and lowering the availablity of items, hence, increasing prices on every item in the game, hurting the little guy once again.
The market does not NEED lot swapping. People can rent lots. I know an ex-miner on my server that rented lots and he had the biggest operation on the server and made billions. I know another ex-miner who did the same and had the 2nd biggest operation. Its certainly possible to run a big mining operation without lot swapping.
So lot swapping = monoply, low prices,= bad, renting = high prices= good? Didn't you say Lot swappers make too much money? What about renters? I harvest at an average cost of .75 -1cpu, suppose i were renting each lot? The cost would double or triple.
I run a small static mining operation on Sunrunner. I've been doing so for over a year. With the lots of 2 accounts I can easily put out 500k of ore a week. A few people like this can replace the lot swappers easily.
Too bad people like you are not contributing any resources to the market, you can hardly sustain your own operation........
Ardelis wrote:
...Yes, and they will gank the prices, making guns, armor, vehicles, houses, etc. much more costly, so much for helping the little man.
...
Lowes and Home Depot help the little man by bringing costs to a minimum. Why pay 200 bucks at Mom Pop Hardware for a push mower when you can get one at Home Depot for 100?
Well the 'little man' you're talking about there is the consumer. Yes, lower prices does benefit the consumer.
But we are the producers, not the consumers. Undercutting each other with low prices does not really help us as a group in the long run.
They don't work together in a network. You end up with small quantities of many diff types of resources at outrageous prices.
Individual miners can certainly bring multiple people working together. 1 guy can rent 8 lots each from 5 people and those 40 lots can produce big stacks of ore just as well as any lot swapper.
.
You can't argue with the fact that High volume benefits all who play the game.
Consumers benefit. The high volume producers benefit.
But anyone who can't compete as a producer at those prices does not benefit.
Pawlin wrote:
Ardelis wrote:
Of course the game can run w/o lot swappers,...
The yellow bit there is my point....
Ardelis wrote:
Just because lot swapping exists now does not mean we need it.
Strong argument, does it mean we don't?
From that statement and a few others you've made,I think you're just yanking my chain now.
Ardelis wrote:
I run a small static mining operation on Sunrunner. I've been doing so for over a year. With the lots of 2 accounts I can easily put out 500k of ore a week. A few people like this can replace the lot swappers easily.
Too bad people like you are not contributing any resources to the market, you can hardly sustain your own operation........
I really don't understand why you said that. Its like you thought I said the exact opposite of what I actually said.
I'm contributing plenty. Like I said above I can easily put out 500k of ore in a week. I don't mine ore every week, sometimes I'll mine a good metal. And my business sustains itself just fine.
Someone wrote:
He said you can't run an Archi business without lot swaps. I do. You can.
I buy the bulk of my resources on the open market. Its not from buddies, guildmates or any network. I just go to galaxy vendor search and search for the cheapest stacks of 100k ore or whatever else I need. I have no problems finding plenty of grind material for 1-2 cpu.
I currently have 2 shops, 3 structure, 2 equipment and 1 food factory. Which is plenty to keep my business running. So yes I can honestly say I manage my business fine with my own lots. I do have an alt but use those lots for other things.
If fewer people felt that they HAD to use lot swaps then it would open the market up for more architects and likelyincrease our prices.
I've seen 30 versions off this written in different ways on this thread. Notice the key words, "I have no problems finding plenty of grind material for 1-2 cpu." Well thats the problem, all these people who claim to be so self sufficient on 10 lots contradict themselves in every post, they still depend on the open market, AKA,Lot Swappers.When your vendor searching the galaxy and find that nice stash of an 'identical resource', guess what?..... Thats right, its a lot swapperproducing that.You think an architect can get 800k ofan identical type of ore w/o lot swappers? At least make a new profession called miningand give them 100+ lots.
Why is lot swapping needed?
1) It's nice to be able to walkina vendor and get 1 million units of the same resource so you can use a full schematic to build 1000 components of w/e your building. Other wise, architects,WS's, AS's, would bein a serial code/schematic frenzy. If i put 2 million units of the same type of ore on my vendor, it won't last 12 hours.
2) I'm not gonna waste my time as a non- crafter with 8 mines makeing 100k per week. I'll pick up my mines and lay out a guild halland go run some more profitable BH missions.
3) Servers like mine, tempest, are always running out of resources.Ore is always in demand, as well as many other resources. I have to purchase power in huge supplies weeks ahead of schedule because power is sorare.
4) Lot swappers provide at least 90% of all resources on the game, period, take thataway, and well, we'll see.....................
5)Scenario, arch has house, 2 lots, arch has 2 factories, thats 2 more lots, which leaves him 6. 6 large ber 13 harvestors operating at 60% efficiency will produce about 11k units per day. Spawns last about 8 days, so for 6 of these, your looking at roughly 525k of resources. So you can't say that an architect can be self sufficient either. When I was an arch, i was burning 500k units of ore in a couple of days, not to count all the steel, iron, copper, aluminium, etc. thats needed.
I think the people who make the decisions, like, removing /pay function for admin's, should actually be forced to play the game and fully understand its inner workings.