Architect Archive
Thread: Galaxy Wide Vendor Search
MasterVan
Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:48 am
#79
Okay, there is a bright side to all of this, I hope. Don't expect what you see currently to stay the same. Unless the devs end up not listening to anybody at all about it. This patch went in pretty much as is straight from TestCenter. So really, we're actually testing it, even though it's Live, because when it comes down to it, there aren't enough vendors/items on TC to really give this thing a proper debugging and make comments and suggestions about it. If you haven't already, go check out the discussion thread here.
Stownhart
Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:13 am
#81
First let me say I have been a master artisan/architect/merchant for about 8 months now. Basically I have a passion for building things. After this patch I too immediately enabled all my vendors for the bazaar (except for my storage vendor down in the basement...
). By the end of that first day, I now have a completely empty stock of harvesters, large and medium houses, and city buildings. My bank account has never been higher. While on the first few days coming up here, I will be swamped with restocking duties, I don't see where this will become a problem in the end. I simply readjust my crafting strategies, and I can keep up with the demand. Besides with the older addition of no more structure deletion, this should balance out quickly.
). By the end of that first day, I now have a completely empty stock of harvesters, large and medium houses, and city buildings. My bank account has never been higher. While on the first few days coming up here, I will be swamped with restocking duties, I don't see where this will become a problem in the end. I simply readjust my crafting strategies, and I can keep up with the demand. Besides with the older addition of no more structure deletion, this should balance out quickly. Ok, now the reason for my quick sell out...I don't sell Heavies at 125K, nor 100K, nor 80K. Mine go for 50K. And if resellers wish to purchase these and be stuck with them unsold, fine. What they are about to find out is that as long as I can restock at least one heavy harvester, when people see my 50K price on the bazaar search they would never purchase at the unreasonable higher prices. Now think about it, who is making more profit? Me selling 100 BER13's at 50K each or a 125K harvester sitting unsold on a vendor?
It's no secret I have been promoting more reasonable pricing on the Corbantis server for a long time. Thank you SOE for a great tool to this end!
Now I do have a fewsuggestions though for making this new search option work better.
1 - Most importantly, we need a more specific catagory system. As noted above seaarching through 18,000 factory crcates is a bit time consuming. For instance, instead of a catagory for just building deeds, break it down into subcatagories of city structures, large houses, medium houses, small houses, ect.
2 - Give an option to has different numbers of results to appear on a screen. Instead of the normal 100 items per page, give the option to show results by 10, 50, 100, 250, 500, 1000, and "all". That way we can use one of the top tabs for reorginaizing the listing more advantageously.
3 - add an option to list items by their "variation of: " title. This would allow us to cut through the hassle of some of the weird naming some people do to their wares.
4 - Allow player cities to have bazaar terminals. (excuse me if this is already possible, but I have never playeda politician. And I have never noticed one in a player city)
5 - This last suggestion also may be in vane, if it is already possible. Allow a customer to purchase the item while at the bazaar, then go pick it up at your vendor at his/her convenience. You can already do this with normal planet/galaxy wide bazaar searches. However I think there should be a few stipulations to this. Limit the number of items you can purchase this way from a single vendor till they are picked up. And limit the amount of time the item can wait till being picked up. If the item excedes this time limit it reverts back into it's original vendor and the purchaser sacrifice thier payment. These 2 things would keep malicious players from emptying a vendor for wrongful reasons.
sashimiforme
Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:33 am
#82
50K for a heavy? how can you possibly sell heavies for 50K and make any profit?
cosno
Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:31 am
#83
Stownhart wrote:
Ok, now the reason for my quick sell out...I don't sell Heavies at 125K, nor 100K, nor 80K. Mine go for 50K. And if resellers wish to purchase these and be stuck with them unsold, fine. What they are about to find out is that as long as I can restock at least one heavy harvester, when people see my 50K price on the bazaar search they would never purchase at the unreasonable higher prices. Now think about it, who is making more profit? Me selling 100 BER13's at 50K each or a 125K harvester sitting unsold on a vendor?
It's no secret I have been promoting more reasonable pricing on the Corbantis server for a long time. Thank you SOE for a great tool to this end!
Wow - 50k for a Heavy Harvester - more power to you - but that is one really low price. Especially considering your Gen Turbines, Small Stur Storage Mods and Ore Mining Units all need to be from factory crates. So at least 3 factory runs to produce 1 item. Also considering that a heavy mineral takes 27770 resources to make you selling at an awesome price.
I do not think it is fair of you to state that people selling for 125k, 100k or 80k are being unreasonable. Not even considering the cost to run the harvesters to pull the resources, current market values of resources, cost in power and maint to run the factories - selling a heavy harvester at 50k equates to just over 1.8 CPU. Filter in those factors and your CPU drops to around 1.2. Many people would consider selling an item at 1.2 CPU is unreasonable. Figure in mining costs of about .5CPU and your profit would only be about .7CPU at the most. So to answer your question about you selling 100 BER13s with a profit margin of .7 CPU only makes you about 70k in actual profit. If thats enough for you - more power to you.
Then consider this - the cost to mine is around .5CPU. So the fist time they pull 100k of a resource and sell it for 2CPU - they just made a profit of 150k. Back out the cost of the harvester and they have made a 100k profit. Now there is a profit based business.
Lets not even go into the fact that a person buying the harvester at that price is generally making a one-time purchase. Heck - these things never decay.
And to your other points -
I agree on point 1 - Instead of point 2 I would like to see the ability to search by name. I dont want a page listing of 1000+ items - Point 3 is a good idea too - Point 4 will never happen 
- Point 5 is okay as long as the player city would still collect their taxes.
And I have been a +12 Master Artisan / +12 Master Architect / +12 Master Droid Engineer for almost 15 months - and still enjoy all my crafting. 
Stownhart
Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:34 am
#84
First I never buy anything needed for making them, I have never once bought resources. And second, as like the Sams-Club pricing strategy, I sell in bulk at lower prices. My average customer is a Mayor or guild leader that will come buy a hundred of an item at once, or factory crates in many instances. I know it may sound like it couldn't work, but in working practice it does, Charging less does actually yield higher profit margins.
I recently sent an email to an architect protege of mine explaining. I won't try to duplicate the entire letter here, so a brief summary. We were discussing how much should be charged for a wall module. He was grinding walls and wished to sell them to me. I informed him that I felt I would be generous by giving him 500 credits each. He replied that he was looking for 10x that amount. I told him that I have 3 factories pumping out structure mods/ wall mods round the clock (app. 400 walls per day). I didn't really have a need to purchase any. So then I went on to write an email detailing how purchasingeverything needed to manufacture a single large house, at the standard going rates,would roughly cost 85,000 credits. Then I went on to explain that my total expenses for producing the same house comes to approximately 10,000 credits. So an architect purchsing resources and components plus standard overhead, and charging 100,000 for that house makes only a 15,000 profit. However when I charge 50,000 credits for the same house I am making a 40,000 profit. Then I continued with the aspect of sales numbers. On an average I will sell 10 or so of my houses to each of the higher priced ones. So with that in mind I now make a total 400,000 profit compared to the higher priced sellers 15,000 profit.
Again it may seem that this strategy could not work in your view. However in practice my architectual business proves otherwise. However to make this all work you need to collect all of your own resources and make all of your own components. And of course the ten lots we are all limited too does not permit this to be done on any type of large scale. Hence I run an ongoing deal with dozens of people that grant me more building lots. Simply I give a person 8 heavy harvesters. They set them using their building lots. This leaves them 2 for their own house, factories, tent, ect. They then give me admin access to all 8. I take care of all upkeep on those 8 harvesters (credits and energy). Afterwards they collect from from 4 of them and I from the other 4. Everyone so far is very pleased with this arrangement, and I have had no complaints. Basically the end result is they are getting free resources and I am getting 4 more building lots. And this deal has even been widely accepted by non-crafting characters since; A- they usually never use their lots anyway, B- they can then sell those resources to all the people that for some odd reason are willing to pay 5 to 50 CPU.
And yes there have been instances of a person "running off" with the 8 harvesters. First I only ever put 2 or 3 days worth of upkeep in each at a time (every 2 to 3 days... ).So that is not that much of an issue since it's not a big deal to make more. And as a balancing thing, I have just as many if not more players stop playing a character, never delete the toon, and this leaves me solitary control of all 8 harvesters.
).So that is not that much of an issue since it's not a big deal to make more. And as a balancing thing, I have just as many if not more players stop playing a character, never delete the toon, and this leaves me solitary control of all 8 harvesters. As a final note, I HIGHLY recommend that every crafting and sales type character stop thinking in the norm. Find your own personallized method of running your business that works better than the current standard. Look around in life, the most successful businesses are those that are different and stand out in the crowd. I don't explain my methods as being a mold for you to use. Instead I use it as an example of being a little more individualistic.
Stownhart
Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:10 am
#85
I apologize for the term I used, "unreasonable", As it seams to have upset you a bit. I didn't realize that the use of a unoffensive word to voice my opinion on a matter would be viewed with such distain.
But BACK to topic: My main point is that the vendor search option can have it's benefits. This is especially true if the Devs fine-tune it a bit, as I pointed out above. I for one praise the v.14 patch. I like the venor search, farther view distances, and streamlined terrain graphics. My entries into this thread were more geared towards the topic, not pricing wars.
Pawlin
Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:26 am
#86
/chuckle
I see that our troll is back. See previous thread.
I wonder if Kallaswi will be joining us too?
I'm sure they read every single one of your posts and dilligently jump into any arguments you might be in irregardless of what forum it is or what time of night. Most of my customers do that for me. Doesn't everyone?
And it only took 1-2 posts before he mentioned Sams Club. Nice twist there on the Walmart argument.
The insults are getting more refined this time to. Instead of leading by declaring that everyone elseis a child: "Appearantly the vast majority of SWG players are children, and have not had a chance to learn such." he instead just uses "unreasonable" and then get irritated when people get irritated. Subtle.
Last time it was "farce", "atrocities", "ripped off", "thieves", "over price", "wrong doing" and "conman". But of course we aren't done yet. He's probably got 3-4 more posts before he wanders off.
Hmm.. Looks like he's doubled his price since the last time though...
Stownhart wrote:
...
As an example of REALISTIC pricing here is a short pricing list of my most common wares;
Small Houses (all) - 5,000
Medium House (all) - 25,000
Large House (all) - 50,000
Personal Harvesters (BER4) - 2,000
Medium Harvester (BER10) - 10,000
Heavy Harvesters (BER13) - 25,000
...
Wonder why? WHy isn't he charging the 'realistic' price of 25k still? Why would someone double their prices??
I wonder if this time we'll get a WP for the shop? Wonder if the shop is still 4k out in the middle of nowhere amongst the krayt spawns out on Tatooine with a 'closed' sign and a 50k entrance fee?
But of course on the other hand it so easy to verify this time cause all we have to do is log into Corbantis and then browse the vendor search looking for 50k heavies made by Blackstarr. Oh, I forgot... they all sold out."I now have a completely empty stock of harvesters, large and medium houses, and city buildings." Darn that makes it hard to verify. How convenient.
cosno
Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:20 pm
#87
Pawlin wrote:
/chuckle
I see that our troll is back. See previous thread.
I wonder if Kallaswi will be joining us too?
I'm sure they read every single one of your posts and dilligently jump into any arguments you might be in irregardless of what forum it is or what time of night. Most of my customers do that for me. Doesn't everyone?
And it only took 1-2 posts before he mentioned Sams Club. Nice twist there on the Walmart argument.
The insults are getting more refined this time to. Instead of leading by declaring that everyone elseis a child: "Appearantly the vast majority of SWG players are children, and have not had a chance to learn such." he instead just uses "unreasonable" and then get irritated when people get irritated. Subtle.
Last time it was "farce", "atrocities", "ripped off", "thieves", "over price", "wrong doing" and "conman". But of course we aren't done yet. He's probably got 3-4 more posts before he wanders off.
Hmm.. Looks like he's doubled his price since the last time though...
Stownhart wrote:
...
As an example of REALISTIC pricing here is a short pricing list of my most common wares;
Small Houses (all) - 5,000
Medium House (all) - 25,000
Large House (all) - 50,000
Personal Harvesters (BER4) - 2,000
Medium Harvester (BER10) - 10,000
Heavy Harvesters (BER13) - 25,000
...
Wonder why? WHy isn't he charging the 'realistic' price of 25k still? Why would someone double their prices??
I wonder if this time we'll get a WP for the shop? Wonder if the shop is still 4k out in the middle of nowhere amongst the krayt spawns out on Tatooine with a 'closed' sign and a 50k entrance fee?
But of course on the other hand it so easy to verify this time cause all we have to do is log into Corbantis and then browse the vendor search looking for 50k heavies made by Blackstarr. Oh, I forgot... they all sold out."I now have a completely empty stock of harvesters, large and medium houses, and city buildings." Darn that makes it hard to verify. How convenient.
LMAO - your posts always make me laugh. I will have to create a character there and try to look him up.
Crimsonsplat
Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:36 pm
#88
Dvnce wrote:
well I enabled mine.. you have to go through 20 pages of deeds to really find anyones stuff but mine.. the first 20 pages of deeds Big Momma Corp takes up about 85 out of 100 items listed..
I really wish SOE had listened to the warnings.. Now we will see how the market will react to this change..
Well my reaction was very simple. I canceled my account. After an evening of dealing with harvesters, trades, guild matters, and etc., I finally got back to the shop and enabled my vendors. Then I drove into Bestine and checked the vendors. Imagine my surprise, prices listing there big as day, and they're sortable. And I'm being WAY undercut... Medium houses at 65k, didn't move,i've dropped to 55k...... and others are selling for 40k. And looking at the locations, there are apparently 3 other shops a stones throw from Bestine, all pricing lower than me; and I'm barely breaking even.
Price war? nope. You guys can have at it. I'm not staying to listen to any more of Sony's lies. After a brief springtime of hope, they've reverted to form. I was luckier than I could believe; I managed to catch the account the day before it rebilled--today's my last day.
Sayonara, I'm going back to City of Heroes. One tenth the challenge and none of the lies.
sashimiforme
Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:55 pm
#89
Oh man, I'm gonna have to stop by more often.
Bottom line is you have to pay for your resources, regardless of craftsmanship. If you cant make something that pays for the crapt to make it, plus your time and effort. Whats the point?
Anyway, this has just left a bad taste in my mouth. I think i just need a break from archi for a week or two. This profession feels more and more like a real job everyday lol.
Maasedge
Fri Mar 25, 2005 2:04 pm
#90
I have been posting my criticsm of this feature pretty regularly in my galaxy forum. I wanted to post my thoughts here and see what you folks think of them. Am I completely off base?
"OK...after using the new system this evening, my opinion of it is that its crap.
Much like an internet search engine the people with the most sales are going to come as a result of being on the first several pages. What determines what persons items are on the first page instead of the second? Then when I click on next page, I can actually see some of the same items from a previous page. For example I watched one of my two corellian small houses follow me through 10 or so pages. Not consecutively mind you, but suddenly it would show up again on a new page. I only have 2 on my vendor but even allowing that I was seeing the 2nd one, I saw my house listed way too many times for one of them not to be a repeat.
Also, I really dont know why SOE didnt implement a SEARCH system, not more of the same dumb ass category system that is horribly inaccurate and currently in place. So the same problem of looking for stuff on the bazzar is now galaxy wide. I have a real problem with the categories. I have over 900 items of furniture on my vendor. I went 20 pages deep through the MISC category (only one that I could find that would list furniture) and only saw a few chairs of mine. I tried to sort by various fields and types etc. but nothing I did seemed to conjure up my own items. I went about 20 pages deep at about 225 items per page. Frankly anyone who "next page"'s through 20 pages should just get on their swoop and start searching the vendors the old way. Either that or they are really patient. Harvesters are installations and deeds, but houses are deeds and buildings, while city buildings float in all 3 spots if I read the bazar screen correctly, just another example of great categorization.
I did find some emergency power to power a turned off harvester on naboo. I had to click through over 36 pages of stuff to find what I needed though. But in this case I was the patient one. Frankly it would have been quicker to just head back to TC and pick up some more of my own power, but that wasnt the goal of my little situation. I really wanted to see if I could find what I needed and how much time I would really save by using it. In the end, I didnt save much time if any at all.
Price is no longer an issue for me. I am quite satisfied, for myself at anyrate, that my prices are in line with the norm and wont require any but minor adjustments if any at all.
Bottom line, this great idea was SOE'd. But on the upside, sort of, if there is not hot fix or minor publish to move this feature to higher up in the Merchant tree, ill be glad to get a few more skill points as I get rid of half my merchant boxes. Ill just have to make do with only 8 vendors instead of 12 and only 2 or 3 thousand items instead of 4k. /grumble"
"OK...after using the new system this evening, my opinion of it is that its crap.
Much like an internet search engine the people with the most sales are going to come as a result of being on the first several pages. What determines what persons items are on the first page instead of the second? Then when I click on next page, I can actually see some of the same items from a previous page. For example I watched one of my two corellian small houses follow me through 10 or so pages. Not consecutively mind you, but suddenly it would show up again on a new page. I only have 2 on my vendor but even allowing that I was seeing the 2nd one, I saw my house listed way too many times for one of them not to be a repeat.
Also, I really dont know why SOE didnt implement a SEARCH system, not more of the same dumb ass category system that is horribly inaccurate and currently in place. So the same problem of looking for stuff on the bazzar is now galaxy wide. I have a real problem with the categories. I have over 900 items of furniture on my vendor. I went 20 pages deep through the MISC category (only one that I could find that would list furniture) and only saw a few chairs of mine. I tried to sort by various fields and types etc. but nothing I did seemed to conjure up my own items. I went about 20 pages deep at about 225 items per page. Frankly anyone who "next page"'s through 20 pages should just get on their swoop and start searching the vendors the old way. Either that or they are really patient. Harvesters are installations and deeds, but houses are deeds and buildings, while city buildings float in all 3 spots if I read the bazar screen correctly, just another example of great categorization.
I did find some emergency power to power a turned off harvester on naboo. I had to click through over 36 pages of stuff to find what I needed though. But in this case I was the patient one. Frankly it would have been quicker to just head back to TC and pick up some more of my own power, but that wasnt the goal of my little situation. I really wanted to see if I could find what I needed and how much time I would really save by using it. In the end, I didnt save much time if any at all.
Price is no longer an issue for me. I am quite satisfied, for myself at anyrate, that my prices are in line with the norm and wont require any but minor adjustments if any at all.
Bottom line, this great idea was SOE'd. But on the upside, sort of, if there is not hot fix or minor publish to move this feature to higher up in the Merchant tree, ill be glad to get a few more skill points as I get rid of half my merchant boxes. Ill just have to make do with only 8 vendors instead of 12 and only 2 or 3 thousand items instead of 4k. /grumble"
Pawlin
Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:17 pm
#91
Maasedge wrote:
...Then when I click on next page, I can actually see some of the same items from a previous page. For example I watched one of my two corellian small houses follow me through 10 or so pages. Not consecutively mind you, but suddenly it would show up again on a new page....
I see the same thing happening. I was looking through the furniture section on our server and I kept seeing specific items showing up again and again. ONe person was selling an anti-decay kit for 20M and it kept popping up on multiple pages.
I spent a good hour skimming through furniture alone on our server and I gave up looking around item #7000. Lots of loot posters and bestine paintings clogging up that category.
From what I've seen, right now I think the system ispretty inefficient.