Architect Archive
Thread: Bloop
Fneegan
Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:11 pm
#53
ZenDragonMLS wrote:
someone calling me a cheater before
It's very obvious that you neither read my post and have a probleminferring whatis being said. Why you think it's permissable that one account can have hundreds of cross-server static lots and also that it doesn't effect the game mechanics - is beyond me.
You may continuously reply to my post as well.In the end, eventually more will see it as what it is.
royalewitcheez
Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:57 pm
#54
Fneegan wrote:
JUST REMOVE ADMIN AND FORCE REDEEDING - problem solved -FAIR GAME for everyone
This isn't fair game for me. I don't think I'm breaking any rules by renting other people's lots for my factories.
StumanKadir
Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:10 pm
#55
Hmmm, someone seems to be rather confused about what people actually do and the postings that they make.
Nfeegan - for your info I currently lot swap with one person on Bloodfin (1 storehouse and 8 static harvs). I'm a frequent player on Bloodfin and as part of the agreement, my swap buddy uses my house on Bloodfin for storage and has my other 8 lots holding static harvs (he btw also plays frequently on Valcyn). Its not quite the 200 harvs you seem to try and portray me as having, but then I guess a lie is all you have available to you to try and back up your case.
Another inaccuracy that seems to float around is the benefit of these statics. With the 8 that I have located at the industrial park on the western edge of Draicco (half in and half out of the zoning limits), to date I have not had anything less than 49% of anything to mine - and most weeks the top resource is in the 80s. As an architect I am always in need of junk, and with 8 x BER13's, even a week of junk 49% steel is worth a couple of hundred wall mods to me.
As a further illustration, over the past 5 weeks I have been mining nothing but ore on them (the last shift was a 65% siliclastic, this weeks is a 51% siliclastic). Maybe I am just lucky with my statics but I have had 80%+ spawns of high UT/SR/DR Duralloy steel, high CD Copper (75% on that one), the list is endless. And its not the exception from my experience, but the norm.
The area where the statics are located in a zone of our rather large industrial park - with most the area zoned so that is not normally available for others to mine. And even if it were free an open, its so close to our boundaries that if anything did spawn there, within the first 10 minutes of it arriving, we would have 60 to 70 heavies on it anyway!!!.
But back to myself and my usage of those 10 lots, that simple doubling of my mining capacity and the extra space to store resources and components allows me to compete as a single account holder (at a level I am confortable with and at a level that allows me to maintain stock)against other architects on the server who run half a dozen accounts AND lot share in the hundreds. So I'm sorry, who are we arguing this is unfair against again?
BoberFett
Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:32 pm
#56
I can see both sides of this argument. I have 10 harvs through cross server lots. In all honesty, I could live without them. They never seem to have much underneath them that I want anyway. So limiting cross server trades wouldn't directly affect me. I built my financial empire through just my 10 lots, so it is possible to do.
I do however purchase materials now that I can afford to buy them in bulk. Many that I buy come from people with massive lot trades, so the lot trades benefit me.
I do agree with lisasdarren point about massive numbers of harvesters causing some of the issues that people currently want fixed. Storage problems would be irrelevant if we were limited to only our lots. The reason we have so much to storeis because resources are easily available by the million, meaning that components and products are produced in bulk quantities. That goes all the way back to the old 100/1000 schematic issue, and increasing the max BER of harvesters.
I also agree with him that part of the reason that novice crafters have trouble selling anything is because resources and final products are over-abundant. Right now I as an architect have the ability to crank out hundreds ofBER13 harvesters in fairly short order.As a weaponsmith I churn out a couple thousand scout blasters without blinking an eye. How can the novice compete with me? His cost is roughly the same, but nobody wants to buy what he has to sell because I have thousands of higher quality items for sale. Thus his only recourse is to use those over-abundant resources to grind to the top
Ripple affect is right. There are so many aspects to the game touched by the resource issue, it's hard to say what would happen of static lot trades were gone overnight.
Perhaps this is a reason to bring the miner profession back. Give that profession additional lots at various levels so that people who want to sell resources can have large numbers of MOVEABLE harvesters to use, but it costs skill points to do and isn't taken as lightly as cross server trades are now.
orange-arrows
Thu Jul 01, 2004 12:49 am
#57
I still like my idea (of course we ALL are invested in our ideas/suggestions): rather than changing the way people play the game so that people CAN NOT do this, why not change the underlying mechanic of the game to make it unprofitable/undesirable to do it --then people will CHOOSE not to do it.
GogoDodo
Thu Jul 01, 2004 12:57 am
#58
Forcing people to redeed just adds tedium to the game. If i go on vacation for two weeks that means i have to pull all my stuff up before i leave or else they'll all be gone. If i have to get my renters to redeed and place a harvestor every week they arn't going to want to do it, unless i'm willing to pay them alot of money.
Saying that everyone should be on equal footing is just plain foolish. This is not a communist state nor are we living in '1984' where everyone is forced to be equals. I'm a crafter, i'm better at crafting than a fighter, thats the nature of the in game skill set. maybe i'mjust a better businessman than someone else who does the same craft, does that mean both our profits should go into a pot and be split evenly? cause if i get more sales since i'm a better businessman doesn't that negate the whole 'equality' arguement? People are not equal, yes we all start asequals but its our personal abilities that differentiate us. Some are just better crafters, some are better at fighting, thats how life is.
Yes i can understand people's arguements that these large static fields of harvestors are bad for the economy, but a monopoly? isn't monopoly if your the only one doing it? these servers have several people who do this, and its not like any newbie schmuck can't log onto 6 other servers and do the same exact thing. There is no way the established people can stop them, so they are hardly a monopoly.
80 harvesters sitting for MONTHS on concentrations that never exceed 6% ... would probably get redeeded or allowed to decay to 0 (in the case of absent or non-existant owners) .... and you aren't 'forcing' change on anyone, you are simply adjusting the game strategy to compensate for (some would say) abusive player strategies. A player could choose to keep his harvesters there, harvesting minimal quantities of possibly excellent resourcs, but I bet the player would decide all on their own that wasn't really working out too well.
This was posted earlier and its actually a good idea. And more importantly its a REAL solution. Why? if i have 10 harvestors on one spot of a resource, doesn't it make sense that i'd suck that vein dry pretty quick? Instead of making a resource come in and leave a week later, the devs could add a feature where the individual veins can be depleted. So a static field would only be able to pull a finite amount, and the people who redeed and place harvestors would be able to pounce on a vein and get a majority of the resources.
G
Talsyra
Thu Jul 01, 2004 3:28 am
#59
Fneegan wrote:
GogoDodo: - Forcing people to redeed just adds tedium to the game. If i go on vacation for two weeks..blah..blah..
- If i have to get my renters to redeed and place a harvestor every week they arn't going to want to do it
- a communist state
Okay GogoDodo - that was just too funny......it really is pretty funny hearing all these and other LAMEdefenses.
Nothing has to bereinvented - it's a simplesolution that puts a stop to it RIGHT NOW.
JUST REMOVE ADMIN AND FORCE REDEEDING - problem solved -FAIR GAME for everyone
And, if you get a second account, you'll only have 10 more lots then the other guy - NOT 200 more!!
There would be lessselling of ebay accounts, ebay money sales, storage and resource stacking would be LESS of an issue and there would be less multiple accounts - Just to name a few good things.
Are you telling me because everyone can do it [have multiple accounts and do cross-server lot swapping of STATIC lots] and get away with it at the moment,that it's fairorit really makesthem better buisiness people ? I don't think so ? If anything,it's an exploit and an abuse. Point blank!
First, if everybody did it - you'd still have an advantage because you already have your reserved STATIC lots sitting there NOT having to be redeeded.
Second, if everybody did it - then you'd be crying that you couldn't find a place for a harverster becausethere would be so many more out there it would (again) interfer.
Third and last, it's typical for those who benefit to cry how unfair it is - when it really affect them the most
If this allows to continue - it's eventually going to corrupt and ruin the game. It will onlyworsen over time as it'll be the ONLY course others can take to gain the same advantage and the numbers are going to increase.
Then, we're all going to have:
+TONS and TONS of HOARDEDresources (that we wont even have to harvest anymore)
+ TONSand TONS of crafted items (that the markets over the player ratio)
+ Creat Unequal advantage as there's going to be a small amout of BILLIONAIRES that the newer player will just not be able to compete
+ LESS players going into the crafting field
Manythanks to -those who do it.
Nobody needs 2accounts to play a game nor to be a good businessman.We don't need STATIC and CROSS-SERVER lot swapping of harvesters and factories.
+ HAVE SINGLE OWNER ADMIN
+ HAVE REGUALR INTREVAL REDEEDING
I'mgoing to say it over and over again until either you leave the game, theDEVs do something about it or I leave the game.
Points to be noted out of this rant (my rant included)
ONLY course others can take to gain the same advantage and the numbers are going to increase
Already an issue
TONS and TONS of HOARDEDresources (that we wont even have to harvest anymore
May only be an issue for certain profs, however those that require insane amount of resources (architect)will still need resources in abundance (so long as people need architects....another issue for another day)
TONSand TONS of crafted items (that the markets over the player ratio)
Already an issue, and will continue to be even with more limited amounts of resources by individual crafters.
Creat Unequal advantage as there's going to be a small amout of BILLIONAIRES that the newer player will just not be able to compete
Moot point. There already ARE. Too late to fix this issue unless the player quits or resigns the empire overto someone else who screws it up. Btw are you stating that newer players should come off on equal footing with an already established crafter? A crafter already with millions to spend for resources is going to have the capital needed to out buy and out produce any newer crafter until that said crafter gains equal capital or means of doing business that negates the older crafters benifits of having such resources at their disposal. Propose a system to deal with this issue also without penalizing existing crafters simply because they were here longer.
LESS players going into the crafting field
Possibly, but then again shouldnt crafting and other profs be done by people who enjoy doing this? Wouldnt you rather have someone who enjoys making items for the community, as opposed to someone who only does it to make money and does not enjoy it nor interacting with the community? Theres supposed to be some effort involved in starting out and there are several options for the starting crafter. ex.
Cooperative crafter associations ie malls.
undersaling competitors (lame but hey..it works sometimes)
BIGGEST contributor to sales = ADVERTISING and LOCATION. If people dont know you exist you wont get sales. You cant expect to make money running a shop on rori with no sign on the building and a vendor not on the world map. If you are having trouble getting people to come to your shop, bring it to a location thats nearer to heavily travelled zones and use the spam bots we have now or you can stand in the crowds shouting your wares and prices that beat other competitors. You may not have the volumn to compete but ever sale that you get makes you closer to being able to expand....and thats the key to business ..expansoin expansion expansion.
Fneegan
Thu Jul 01, 2004 4:23 am
#60
Talsyra wrote:
Talsyara: - already an issue
It sure is already an issue - I don't mind you're ranting - I hope everybody shares their views on this on NOT just those doing it.
Those who are ENTIRELY AND COMPLETELY honest with themselves andare knowledgeable about cross server lot swapping of STATIC lots DOES - know that this IS a method/exploit which gives an UNFAIR advantage andhas ADVERSE affects.
There areSO MANY issues which is totallyRELATED and AFFECTED bythis.
We're aso beginning tosee even a decline in prices (and we'll see more)
- resources for 1cpu (well see more)
- items going well below the "normal" price range (sell see more)
And No, it's not going to get better. Those who are doing it OBVIOUSLY have to get rid of it of some how
+ they have so much of it
+ price isn't a concern
So - YES - it's already an issue. And, if it's an issue - LET IT BE FIXED and this can be done by:
+ having single admin on harvesters and factories
+ having harvesters and factories need to re-deed
Really, it's only penalizing those doing it
Talsyra
Thu Jul 01, 2004 5:44 am
#61
Fneegan wrote:
It sure is already an issue - I don't mind you're ranting - I hope everybody shares their views on this on NOT just those doing it.
Those who are ENTIRELY AND COMPLETELY honest with themselves andare knowledgeable about cross server lot swapping of STATIC lots DOES - know that this IS a method/exploit which gives an UNFAIR advantage andhas ADVERSE affects.
There areSO MANY issues which is totallyRELATED and AFFECTED bythis.
We're aso beginning tosee even a decline in prices (and we'll see more)
- resources for 1cpu (well see more)
- items going well below the "normal" price range (sell see more)
And No, it's not going to get better. Those who are doing it OBVIOUSLY have to get rid of it of some how
+ they have so much of it
+ price isn't a concern
So - YES - it's already an issue. And, if it's an issue - LET IT BE FIXED and this can be done by:
+ having single admin on harvesters and factories
+ having harvesters and factories need to re-deed
Really, it's only penalizing those doing it
Those who are ENTIRELY AND COMPLETELY honest with themselves andare knowledgeable about cross server lot swapping of STATIC lots DOES - know that this IS a method/exploit which gives an UNFAIR advantage andhas ADVERSE affects
I do not think of this as an exploit personally. Lame thing to do? maybe. Every person has the ability to make a character on another server of their choosing up to a specificamount. Thus, due to their being able to do something whichis legitimate in game anyway....I fail to see how this process is viewed upon as bad in itself according to current in game rules?Perhaps getting rid of the ability to make characters on other servers should be explored as a viable solution, since why should anyone be playing on other galaxies anyway?
There areSO MANY issues which is totallyRELATED and AFFECTED bythis.
We're aso beginning tosee even a decline in prices (and we'll see more)
- resources for 1cpu (well see more)
- items going well below the "normal" price range (sell see more)
In both events, there is a hard cap on prices (due to costs involved in getting the goods at the least) you will not see resources going below this cost unless the seller is just wanting to get rid of everything thats not been selling well or is probably quitting the business. Remember it costs x amount of maintanance to get x amount of goods on x% concentration spot.
So - YES - it's already an issue. And, if it's an issue - LET IT BE FIXED and this can be done by:
+ having single admin on harvesters and factories
+ having harvesters and factories need to re-deed
I think both of these options put undue hardship on crafters, especially the second option for making items have to be periodically re-deed'ed.
lisasdarren
Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:31 am
#62
Talsyra wrote:
I do not think of this as an exploit personally. Lame thing to do? maybe. Every person has the ability to make a character on another server of their choosing up to a specificamount. Thus, due to their being able to do something whichis legitimate in game anyway....I fail to see how this process is viewed upon as bad in itself according to current in game rules?Perhaps getting rid of the ability to make characters on other servers should be explored as a viable solution, since why should anyone be playing on other galaxies anyway?
But the purpose of making a character on another server is to play that character, not to give away your lots to someone else on that server and then never go back there.
In both events, there is a hard cap on prices (due to costs involved in getting the goods at the least) you will not see resources going below this cost unless the seller is just wanting to get rid of everything thats not been selling well or is probably quitting the business. Remember it costs x amount of maintanance to get x amount of goods on x% concentration spot.
There is a minimum price, however someone who wants to run a resource resale business, buying from non-crafters who mine a bit and then sell on to the crafters at a profit can't do this if the market is flooded with underpriced resources.
So - YES - it's already an issue. And, if it's an issue - LET IT BE FIXED and this can be done by:
+ having single admin on harvesters and factories
+ having harvesters and factories need to re-deed
I think both of these options put undue hardship on crafters, especially the second option for making items have to be periodically re-deed'ed.
While a believe that this situation needs to be fixed i feel that the need to regularly re-deed is not the answer, it can dramatically increase the costs of running harvesters, i know people who run static fields on just their own lots because they don't have artisan to survey or they just can't be bothered with moving them. Also the single admin puts a stop to the legitimate business of renting lots from others for ingame credits.
My instant suggestion would be to allow only 10 lots per account as i don't see how you can have time to play on multiple servers, however I am aware that there are a number of people who do manage to do so and enjoy it so this wouldn't make them very happy.
Here is an idea, how about everytime you log into your account to play SWG it gets recorded...If say 7 days passes where you log on but don't play that character your harvesters/factories are re-deeded automatically into your inventory and either the resources mined are destroyed or placed in your inventory. This means you can stop playing, go on holiday or whatever with no ill effects, but if you are playing, but not that character, you lose the ability to mine. If you are not playing that character that often then you clearly don't need the harvesters and factories down as they will run out of resources to collect / schematics to run anyhow.
Actually i am liking that idea so much i think it deserves a post of its own...
VendtDarkfell
Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:49 am
#63
Scenario 1:
Cross-Server Lot Trades increase database load.
Increased database load causes dev's to put limits on storage in housing.
Players trade more lots cross-server to circumvent dev's limits on storage.
Rinse and repeat.
Scenario 2:
Cross-Server Lot Trades inflate city sizes.
Inflated city sizes cause dev's to limit the number of "recognized" player cities.
Player cities with med centers and cantinas are often empty because their size is inflated.
Player cities with real populations are not necessarily on the map because they have not yet been "recognized."
You can have your discussions about economic effects and barriers to entry. For me, however, there are just too many variables and not enough data. I'm running a resource business with my (IRL and in-game) family, and am very interested in the state of the economy. I just don't think there are enough facts to support an arguement on either side.
Tam Darkfell
Darkfell Delivery (Intrepid)
orange-arrows
Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:12 pm
#64
Scenario 1:
Cross-Server Lot Trades increase database load.
no, the resultantlarge, high density harvester farms and/or the stockpiling of tremendous quantities of resources produced by those farms may increase database load
Increased database load causes dev's to put limits on storage in housing.
increased database load can result in many limitations, the limitaion on storage may be partially or entirely resulting from other causes
Players trade more lots cross-server to circumvent dev's limits on storage.
no, the only logically true statement is - players trade lots cross servers to circumvent the GAME limit on lot ownership.
Rinse and repeat.
um ... what does this mean?
Scenario 2:
Cross-Server Lot Trades inflate city sizes.
houses (storage houses) owned by place holder characters who have declared that house inside city limits do inflate city sizes
Inflated city sizes cause dev's to limit the number of "recognized" player cities.
the number of player cities was limited from the beginning of player cities, city size apparantly has nothing to do with it as the gross number of player structrutures in a worldnot limited
Player cities with med centers and cantinas are often empty because their size is inflated.
cities with place holder citizens clearlyhave fewer citizens who will likely be in the game
Player cities with real populations are not necessarily on the map because they have not yet been "recognized."
cities that can not be placed may be in that situation becase a city with a largely placeholder population was placed previously to them, taking up one of the limited slots that would otherwise be available
I feelthe better solution is not to heavy handidly bar the activity but to encourage players to reevaluate the profitibility of this activity. As I suggested by changing the spawn mechanism the practice will simply fade away.
GogoDodo
Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:36 pm
#65
Fneegan wrote:
JUST REMOVE ADMIN AND FORCE REDEEDING - problem solved -FAIR GAME for everyone
Not really fair for the casual gamer is it? Every time he gets to play he has to redeed all his harvestors. And he can never get to a good spot cause since everyone else has to redeed, they always pounce on the good veins. Nobody will rent lots to him cause then they have to do extra work for little return.
I use cross server lots, i admit it, and am actually torn over the continued use of them. With holo grinding gone supplies are increasing, which means a butt load of auctions to restock constantly. Not to mention the time consumption to check them all. Would be nice if the Arch profession had more complexity to it to make up for the difference.
That said, and this is not a flame, but being forced to redeed a harvestor every so often is justInsane and willcompletely kill the mining industry. The convienence of harvestors becomes lost when you are forced to visit them on a set schedule, lose net access for two days and your screwed.
Options?
Well you could make a requirement for placing harvestors. Novice Artisan for personals, Novice Crafting proff for Mediums, Master crafting for Heavies.
Could bring back Miner profession with lot bonuses at its levels
Could drop lot number on all players to 6 with novice crafters getting an additional 4 and master level crafters getting 5 more.
Could Cap the amount of money you can put into a harvestor, say 10 days (slightly longer than a spawn). If it runs out of maintence is begins to get damaged and you need to repair the harvestor, using a arch made kit, before you can redeed or reactivate it. This still allows for static fields but would cut out your less dedicated miners and get rid of some of the ones left by inactive players. This is closer to the redeed idea with more latitude to the user.
G