Architect Archive
Thread: Honest Opinion on that craft system..
That sounds cool.
Perelay wrote:
Thank you Dvnce - you asked me 'the' question......
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The same can be said of harvesters. Do I add a power efficiency module and have a lower extraction rate, OR add a Turbo module (which uses more power) for a faster extraction rate? Make the harvesters use chassis per type. the bigger the chassis the more modules you can use (gee.. sounds like droids, doesn't it). the more modules you add of a certain type, the more effective that function is. That will create a larger range of harvester types and therefore a wider range of uses. Casual to Power, there will be a type to fit each player. Factory's are the same. Cookie cutter. I crank them out all the time. Make modules for manufacturing rates. Do I use a module to conserve power or a module to increase output rates?
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My 2 credits:
Master Crafter + Best Resources = Best Product
Novice Crafter + Poor Resources = Worst Product
FulminataXII wrote:
Dvnce wrote:
He he .. i ask community their opinion and i get low star-ed ... hehe too funny ...
Anyway .. The problem is and this is what is frustrating.. Changes that are best for the game are always seen as nerfs.. say speed and damage are broken up into two different lines.. WS are going to be livid.. Combat players too... although in this case the devs would be giving the crafters what they are asking for variety ... And this would be a case in each profession well almost each ....
So what would be an acceptible change?
You got low starred because you didn't just ask for our opinion, you also gave your opinion, and that opinion goes against what many architects believe should happen. The majority of MASTER Architects are not the leading architects on their server, and they do not have +2 experimentation from skill tapes. Given that high BER harvesters are the only items that architects can reliably sell for a decent profit, this change would simply shift more business to the architects that were already on top.
This really isn't an issue between Masters and non-Masters as much as it is an issue between those who have loot items obtained with obscene amounts of credits from AFK looters and those who don't. And yes, I realize it was still possible to get the max BER harvesters without the tapes, but it was much more difficult, and not possible for those with only a limited supply of good resources.
Rather than arguing for a longer period of time for people to stock up schematics for BER 14 heavies, and BER 11 mediums, you should be asking that the devs revert all currently existing 14s and 11s to 13s and 10s so that the playing field remains level.
As for acceptable changes, if skill tapes are going to remain that important, they are going to have to become more common, and this needs to happen BEFORE any crafting changes occur. Alternatively, rather than a rare loot drop (or in addition to it), make it possible for BE/Tailor products to increase experimentation.
Message Edited by FulminataXII on 03-19-2004 12:45 PM
One as I said .. when I started the Corr position.. when it comes to campaining The will of the community here will always be what I push for..
However... and this is a strong however.. I am still an architect so I do have the right to speak my veiw.. .. And I am sorry .. I worked hard to get where I am on my server.. I started by building houses for resources just to level.. And it took 4 months before I can say that I became Established on my server... I just now in the last few days aquired my skill tapes.. and for those that feel like that makes me less of a crafter... I am sorry that is just child petiness.. I worked hard for these.. No afk .. No 100 lot trade tactics.. ...If skill tapes are going to be in the game those who have them should have better results.. or else why do they exist?....
And as far as the reason why I said that this wasnt live long enough .... Every Profession had Pros.. and Cons to this new system .. but instead of looking for the pros.. the first time the crafter that had been getting by with sub perfect resources got lower stats .. They cried foul... This is evident because they started screaming before they even tested it themselves.. Everyone wants changes that will better this game.. but many forget that sometimes to make the game as a whole better we must sacrifice some things..
Dont get me wrong.. You didnt upset me.. I am not lashing out.. If you feel that I am I apologize now.. AS i have said before our community here in the architect forum has been great.. we seem to get along well.. and that makes reading these post lest strenuous (sp?) on all of us..
Thank you Dvnce - you asked me 'the' question......
Back when I first heard of SWG I looked it up on the web and read all that was out on it. One of the Major selling points, and as it happens the point that lured me away from Everquest, was the ability to make unique and varied items. The example that was put up for review was grenades. The crafter would create a grenade by making several subcomponents, each component having values that were factored into the final assembly of the grenade. In *addition* to the base components a crafter could add optional components to improve the grenade in several ways. Each optional component did not depend on the presence of any other option component. So, by example, a crafter would make all the parts of an item, seperately, then assemble them into the final product. In contrast, the current system has ingredient slots that *identify* the part that those ingredients are for, but, all the pieces are made in mass at the same time. Also, in contrast to the pre-release example, not all subcomponents are factored in to the items final stats. Our desire to have variety is still there, but, as you noticed, the type of variety offered was a limited control of how many crafters could produce the premium items. As with any other market forces, people will seek out the items that meet their needs. By narrowing the number of crafter that can make the desired items you funnel more of the money to these crafters. In order to reflect variety in the crafted goods the number of Possible goods needs to increase. The engine for this has already been implemented in the droid invasion update. Specifically, the strength of the droids combat capablility is controlled directly by how many combat modules are included in the final assembly of that droid. This same concept can be applied to ANY crafted items final stats.
The point of my rambling is this, implement or create a system where in order to make a T21 you have to decide on power or range, NOT by what you experiment on, but instead, on what sub module(s) you include. Do you add a speed module to increase fire rate, OR, add a range enhancing module. These modules, in turn, should have experimental qualities that add to the overall outcome of the final weapon. By making MORE options to choose from then crafters have to decide what people will buy. This will also allow people to aquire the items that are more in line with how they want to play the game. Things like resource scanners should be made with modules. Do I add a Range module to get a wider search area, OR, a module that reduces mind costs? Then I make that and offer it for sale. Someone that wants range will buy the ranged one. someone that pings a lot will buy the mind one. Or Both! And use them as they need.
Perelay wrote:
Dvnce wrote:
FulminataXII wrote:
Dvnce wrote:
He he .. i ask community their opinion and i get low star-ed ... hehe too funny ...
Anyway .. The problem is and this is what is frustrating.. Changes that are best for the game are always seen as nerfs.. say speed and damage are broken up into two different lines.. WS are going to be livid.. Combat players too... although in this case the devs would be giving the crafters what they are asking for variety ... And this would be a case in each profession well almost each ....
So what would be an acceptible change?
You got low starred because you didn't just ask for our opinion, you also gave your opinion, and that opinion goes against what many architects believe should happen. The majority of MASTER Architects are not the leading architects on their server, and they do not have +2 experimentation from skill tapes. Given that high BER harvesters are the only items that architects can reliably sell for a decent profit, this change would simply shift more business to the architects that were already on top.
This really isn't an issue between Masters and non-Masters as much as it is an issue between those who have loot items obtained with obscene amounts of credits from AFK looters and those who don't. And yes, I realize it was still possible to get the max BER harvesters without the tapes, but it was much more difficult, and not possible for those with only a limited supply of good resources.
Rather than arguing for a longer period of time for people to stock up schematics for BER 14 heavies, and BER 11 mediums, you should be asking that the devs revert all currently existing 14s and 11s to 13s and 10s so that the playing field remains level.
As for acceptable changes, if skill tapes are going to remain that important, they are going to have to become more common, and this needs to happen BEFORE any crafting changes occur. Alternatively, rather than a rare loot drop (or in addition to it), make it possible for BE/Tailor products to increase experimentation.
Message Edited by FulminataXII on 03-19-2004 12:45 PM
One as I said .. when I started the Corr position.. when it comes to campaining The will of the community here will always be what I push for..
However... and this is a strong however.. I am still an architect so I do have the right to speak my veiw.. .. And I am sorry .. I worked hard to get where I am on my server.. I started by building houses for resources just to level.. And it took 4 months before I can say that I became Established on my server... I just now in the last few days aquired my skill tapes.. and for those that feel like that makes me less of a crafter... I am sorry that is just child petiness.. I worked hard for these.. No afk .. No 100 lot trade tactics.. ...If skill tapes are going to be in the game those who have them should have better results.. or else why do they exist?....
And as far as the reason why I said that this wasnt live long enough .... Every Profession had Pros.. and Cons to this new system .. but instead of looking for the pros.. the first time the crafter that had been getting by with sub perfect resources got lower stats .. They cried foul... This is evident because they started screaming before they even tested it themselves.. Everyone wants changes that will better this game.. but many forget that sometimes to make the game as a whole better we must sacrifice some things..
Dont get me wrong.. You didnt upset me.. I am not lashing out.. If you feel that I am I apologize now.. AS i have said before our community here in the architect forum has been great.. we seem to get along well.. and that makes reading these post lest strenuous (sp?) on all of us..
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). I would love to see a timer on these places - if you can't do it in one hour, you are out of there for a day at least.
GogoDodo wrote:
the_redeye_jedi wrote:
They're going to fix this right?
They aren't really going to let a select few Architects run around with uber harvs no one will ever be able to make again are they?
Why should some other Architect be able to mine more with his ten lots simply because he was able to log in on a particular Tuesday night? He now has a permanent leg up. These things will never decay. He spends the same moneya normal guy does but gets more materials. How is this right?
This is not intended to be a flame, but this is the whole point of competition Redeye, to take advantage of an opportunity. Be it a new high UT steel that shifts in or getting some really good crafting stations to make good harvestors to get more of that high UT steel. If everyone was all equal they why would anyone have any loyalty to me or my shop? To make all archs equal tells the guy that spent all the time to understand and master the craft that he wasted his time cause some new guy who just joined the game last week is just as good as him.
But that is equality, all archs are not equal and nor should they be. That doesn't mean that there shouldn't be some fairness. Resources shifting helps to give all archs a chance at the next good resource, and there should be more factors that help keep a fair playing field while still allowing those who are true masters.
G
i dont really disagree with you....i think competition is a very very good thing...
my complaints where that i had a stcok of maybe 50 harvetsors that the patch rendered trash....
in our profession we have hard cap levels - 12s, 13s, 14s....unlike weapons smith where if your gun has say 210 damage, it really is not that inferior to a gin with 212 damage...most palyers would see them as basically the same..
but players dont see that with our goods...they see the max level 14 and anything below is not really going to sell...
if i had had another day or so, i would have had been able to get some 14 schemaics with no problem, i am sure...in another week most of us probabaly would have....14s would become the new 13.
I wouldnt mind if they increased competition somehow...i just dont think the competition should be based on who has collected the most skill tapes
FulminataXII wrote:
There seems to be a common misconception of why people objected to the changes, and why the changes were revoked. It wasn't because they nerfed or improved anyone's ability to craft goods. The primary complaint of people prior to the patch (and I was one of them) was that the changes would do nothing to help solve the problems that the devs said they were intended to fix. In fact, they would only have made things worse.
You may think that master crafters with max skill tapes should have an advantage, and maybe they should, but the devs stated reason for implementing the changes were to make it EASIER for new master crafters to compete, not harder! The complaints from before the patch were very vocal in pointing this out.
There were some bandwagoners who were against it because they were afraid of getting nerfed, but that was not what the initial complaints were about, and I do not believe that was why the changes were eventually removed. The devs don't seem to be afraid of nerfing people, but they are very concerned about balance, and this change, which was intended to improve balance, would have served only to make things more imbalanced amongst crafters.
I understand your reasons for thinking the changes weren't in long enough for people to really try it, but if they aren't going to leave them in, then they needed to take them out as quickly as possible because they allowed for better items to be made than were made under the old system. In fact, once they decided to back them out, they never should have gone live at all. They should have delayed the patch by a day and removed them. I could have waited another day for my bantha mount, and my /move up-down commands
Finally, since I started by responding to your comment on getting low-starred, I'll try to respond to it again with hopefully a less harsh tone. Starring your post is a way for some people to express their opinions of your opinions without necessarily having to repeat what other people have already said. If you want to avoid that in the future, you might try separating your call for information and your own personal opinions on the subject at hand into two separate posts. If you had done that on this topic, I think your initial post probably would have been five-starred, while only your second post would have been low-starred
Dont forget that I am part of some Dev Communication so not everything I post is based on speculation.. .. The majority of the complaints were infact .. I used to be able to make this with such and such resource and now I cannot... These people were successful in rallying alot of people... Yes there were some nice arguments about the impact of monopolies.. But there was a bit of miscommunication in the response of the whys.. many dont remember the First post the devs made of wanting a more dynamic system where the resources played a more direct role in the crafting process... and the skill of the crafter as well..
Also as far as market goes.. If you cannot make the best (ok ... or market varies from this statement (to an extent) ) it does not mean you are ruined.. One of the most successful WS on gorath has made enough money focusing on making sub par weapons and selling them for an affordible price... Now he has enough money to buy tapes and resources to compete with the high qual weapons.. and since his vendor was always well stocked he has already made a name for him self... and he already has customer loyalty from the people that were developing their characters and could not afford the best but now can... Breaking monopolies are not hard... You just have to offer something they do not..
Honestly the dev announcement that related the crafting system and monopolies should never have been posted..
Dvnce wrote:
Dont forget that I am part of some Dev Communication so not everything I post is based on speculation.. .. The majority of the complaints were infact .. I used to be able to make this with such and such resource and now I cannot... These people were successful in rallying alot of people... Yes there were some nice arguments about the impact of monopolies.. But there was a bit of miscommunication in the response of the whys.. many dont remember the First post the devs made of wanting a more dynamic system where the resources played a more direct role in the crafting process... and the skill of the crafter as well..
Also as far as market goes.. If you cannot make the best (ok ... or market varies from this statement (to an extent) ) it does not mean you are ruined.. One of the most successful WS on gorath has made enough money focusing on making sub par weapons and selling them for an affordible price... Now he has enough money to buy tapes and resources to compete with the high qual weapons.. and since his vendor was always well stocked he has already made a name for him self... and he already has customer loyalty from the people that were developing their characters and could not afford the best but now can... Breaking monopolies are not hard... You just have to offer something they do not..
Honestly the dev announcement that related the crafting system and monopolies should never have been posted..
Personally, I am rather upset that the Devs caved the way they did.
It was already going to see the light of day. They were going to have to wait at least a day before they reverted it. They should have gone ahead and waited a week instead, so that more of us could get a feel for if it before switching back. They've basically completely wasted their time and ours now.