Architect Archive
Thread: Is this a known bug?
Aglanon
Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:16 am
#40
I don't know about you, but I find it even more frightening that someone so completely incapable of seeing obvious contradictions in his own statements and someone who is clearly to me a "balance nazi" as neologist put it, is the TEST CENTER correspondent. Bad enough if he was the DE correspondent trying to devalue droids, but this means he is in the ear of the Devs "representing" the players for EVERYTHING that is tested?
Obo_alCan
Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:23 am
#41
I think you are missing the point in trying to equate a droid to a weapon.
A weapon is a part of you as the Player Object. It doesn’t matter if you are shooting bullets from a gun, lasers from your eyes or thunder bolts from your arse; it still comes from you as a complete object. A weapon is not a separate targetable object that will take all the damage as a result of its attack.
A droid, or any other pet, on the other hand is a separate object. Not quite on the level that another player is, as there is still an attachment to your character, but it will deal and take damage in its own encounter and engage directly with a MOB.
If you used a weapon, it doesn’t matter how fast or slow the weapon can do it, you are still doing all the damage yourself and the having to engage directly with the MOB.
So if you set a droid to attack a MOB and then just tap it once, you as the player are not putting yourself at direct risk for the full encounter, as the droid attracts the attention of the MOB.
I’m not at all saying this is what you do, but it is the case that must be mitigated against. If the player were to gain full XP in this case, it would be a clear case of all the reward with little to no risk.
Also current rewards with players in groups are obviously not intended, as recent history has shown. But that being said, I’d still not equate a pet to a player either.
I think it is a bit disingenuous to come in here and tell us we don’t care about droids, or we're purposefully trying to devalue them.
No one wants droids to be more useful, and have a greater audience, more than Droid Engineers. But we have had to learn the hard way about the balance difficulties that need to be overcome. If that makes us so called “balance nazis”, then so be it.
A weapon is a part of you as the Player Object. It doesn’t matter if you are shooting bullets from a gun, lasers from your eyes or thunder bolts from your arse; it still comes from you as a complete object. A weapon is not a separate targetable object that will take all the damage as a result of its attack.
A droid, or any other pet, on the other hand is a separate object. Not quite on the level that another player is, as there is still an attachment to your character, but it will deal and take damage in its own encounter and engage directly with a MOB.
If you used a weapon, it doesn’t matter how fast or slow the weapon can do it, you are still doing all the damage yourself and the having to engage directly with the MOB.
So if you set a droid to attack a MOB and then just tap it once, you as the player are not putting yourself at direct risk for the full encounter, as the droid attracts the attention of the MOB.
I’m not at all saying this is what you do, but it is the case that must be mitigated against. If the player were to gain full XP in this case, it would be a clear case of all the reward with little to no risk.
Also current rewards with players in groups are obviously not intended, as recent history has shown. But that being said, I’d still not equate a pet to a player either.
I think it is a bit disingenuous to come in here and tell us we don’t care about droids, or we're purposefully trying to devalue them.
No one wants droids to be more useful, and have a greater audience, more than Droid Engineers. But we have had to learn the hard way about the balance difficulties that need to be overcome. If that makes us so called “balance nazis”, then so be it.
Lamgwin
Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:27 am
#42
Obo it is not a matter of equating a droid with a weapon. The weapon is being used as an example of an interaction or process, for the purpose of debating the underlying principle. That principle is what is debatable, it being the idea that, because the droid does damage, the player is not entitled to the same amount of experience.
You obviously realize the direct correlation with other players in groups, which is good since the fact is undeniable. Whether it be another player or a droid makes absolutely no difference whatsoever. The exchange in question is XP for activity. That the activity has been mitigated or diminished by a droid or another player is entirely moot. The fact remains that a player using a probot in a battle with a mob doesn't have to do as much damage to that mob with his own weapons because of the damage to the mob being done by the droids weapons. There is no difference in activity when that same player doesn't have to do as much damage to a mob due to the intervention of another, grouped player. Therefore, the underlying principle, that being that the XP should only be award in accordance with the direct amount of damage done by the player, is clearly only being applied in the case of the probot user and not the grouper.
As for the argument regarding weapons, it may be more subtle, but still it is not impossible to understand. Two players, all things being equal, do the same amount of damage, unless that damage is changed by some outside factor. So two players with teh same weapon, but each weapon having a different max damage, will not do the same amount of damage. In reverse, this means that one of those players has to exert less effort on his part to defeat the same mob, despite the same invest of xp and skill points up to that point. The same is true of two players where all things are equal but for one's use of a probot. If the principle in this case being applied is that of the relative difficulty of the kill, then there should be XP mitigation for the player with the better weapon just as surely as there is for the player with the probot. This does not say the same amount of mitigation, nor that weapons and probots are precisely the same. The question at hand is the process, and the principle. If the player with the superior weapon assumes less risk, then by your methodology he should assume less reward.
It is clearly a double standard. In every other case, players can take actions that both mitigate their risk and increase their reward, without needing to invest anything other than the money to purchase a tool, or the time to find a group. Similar arguments can be made regarding reduced risk through armor use. The fact is, the only tool at our disposal singled out for XP reduction is the probot. There's simply no basis for it, other than people not wanting other people to do things for xp that they themselves do not wish to do. To wit, I don't want a probot, therefore a probot should not present you with an advantage. It's childish and only caters to the false notion of balance among gamers, not to any legitimate or logically realistic balance.
Lamgwin
Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:24 pm
#43
Example C
Atan, merely restating the principle that reduced effort equals reduced xp doesn't change one fraction the fact that currently this principle is only applied in the case of the probot. It is much more effective, much much much more effective, to simply join a group. Yet there is no reduction or punishment there. You've only restated the principle which I and the others have already shown to be applied unequally.
Example A only asserts that there is less of a difference between two players with differing weapons, something which is certainly not to be assumed without evidence. Even if it were, as I said above, the mitigation of XP doesn't have to be the same as the mitigation with the probot, it could be very small. Currently there is none, which runs contrary to the principle that reduced risk or reduced effort should equal reduced experience.
There's simplyno way around it. The idea that reduced risk or reduced effort equals reduced rewards is currently only applied in the case of probots. No other method of mitigating one's risk or effort has a subsequent reduction in reward. None. You simply cannot deny this. It's the current state of things like it or not, agree or not.
You can get more power through a variety of methods that do not require skill points. You can mitigate risk and reduce effor through a variety of methods that do not require skillpoints. Yet of all those methods, only droid use has a subsequent reduction in reward.
Atan
Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:44 pm
#44
Lamgwin wrote:
Example C
Atan, merely restating the principle that reduced effort equals reduced xp doesn't change one fraction the fact that currently this principle is only applied in the case of the probot. It is much more effective, much much much more effective, to simply join a group. Yet there is no reduction or punishment there. You've only restated the principle which I and the others have already shown to be applied unequally.
Example A only asserts that there is less of a difference between two players with differing weapons, something which is certainly not to be assumed without evidence. Even if it were, as I said above, the mitigation of XP doesn't have to be the same as the mitigation with the probot, it could be very small. Currently there is none, which runs contrary to the principle that reduced risk or reduced effort should equal reduced experience.
There's simplyno way around it. The idea that reduced risk or reduced effort equals reduced rewards is currently only applied in the case of probots. No other method of mitigating one's risk or effort has a subsequent reduction in reward. None. You simply cannot deny this. It's the current state of things like it or not, agree or not.
You can get more power through a variety of methods that do not require skill points. You can mitigate risk and reduce effor through a variety of methods that do not require skillpoints. Yet of all those methods, only droid use has a subsequent reduction in reward.
There is one very simple reason why probots have that penalty, but groups even have a bonus. This is an MMORPG, people should play together, not solo on their own. It is certainly possible, but the devs want to encourage social behavior, group play, not solo players or even "solo groups".
And if you know a way to reduce the risk in combat like a droid does for a CL 1 crafter, please tell me, Atan would like to stay alive more ^^
Lamgwin
Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:54 pm
#45
"This is an MMORPG, people should play together, not solo on their own."
Well that's obviously a debatable opinion. More to the point, I don't even necessarily agree that removing the xp reduction would discourage group play. It's long been a practice in all MMORPGs, even while encouraging group play, not to actively discourage solo play. That's simply bad business. Why shove off paying customers when it's just as easy to keep them?
"And if you know a way to reduce the risk in combat like a droid does for a CL 1 crafter, please tell me, Atan would like to stay alive more"
Well that's easy as pie. Eat food, use spice, get doctor buffs. None of those things will cost you any skill points, and all of them reduce your risk in combat. Each to a different degree of course. But the principle, as they say, is the same.
Aglanon
Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:41 pm
#47
Lamgwin wrote:
"And if you know a way to reduce the risk in combat like a droid does for a CL 1 crafter, please tell me, Atan would like to stay alive more"
Well that's easy as pie. Eat food, use spice, get doctor buffs. None of those things will cost you any skill points, and all of them reduce your risk in combat. Each to a different degree of course. But the principle, as they say, is the same.
That is the PERFECT example right there. Any of you going to claim that doctor buffs, spice and food don't give you an advantage in combat without sacrificing skill points? They each have their downsides (puking, buffs and food are shortlived and cost money) but so does probots (repair kits, having to pay for batteries and recharge, etc.)
Another easy solution is letting me actually CONTROL my droid by determining how much damage I want my probot to be doing so that when I'm a level 28 in a fight and wanting to use a probot for light backup duties, he doesn't practically kill my enemy and take all of the xp!
Better yet, why can't they just have droid certifications that work just like weapons certifications?
Sorry about the drama, I'd just love for probots or any droids to be more than a mildly amusing prop in this game.
Atan
Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:02 pm
#48
I dont think that anything like food/spices/buffs are as good as a combat droid. especially for a CL 1.
I did a small test (CL 1 with FS ranged Speed& Acc against a CL 4), using a MA crafted CDEF rifle.
I did about 49 damage every 4 seconds (ca 12 dps), my combat droid did 250 damage every second (250 dps)
Spices only affect HAM regen, Food HAM & accurancy (wont do much here)
Doc buffs HAM regen and 25% more speed (i think)
My HAM about 1000, only stim a's, compared to a droid 3xxx health, stimD 1k+ heals, still think that buffs & stuff are as good as a droid?
I did a small test (CL 1 with FS ranged Speed& Acc against a CL 4), using a MA crafted CDEF rifle.
I did about 49 damage every 4 seconds (ca 12 dps), my combat droid did 250 damage every second (250 dps)
Spices only affect HAM regen, Food HAM & accurancy (wont do much here)
Doc buffs HAM regen and 25% more speed (i think)
My HAM about 1000, only stim a's, compared to a droid 3xxx health, stimD 1k+ heals, still think that buffs & stuff are as good as a droid?
Aglanon
Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:52 pm
#49
Atan wrote:
still think that buffs & stuff are as good as a droid?
I was NEVER discussing which of the various things was better than the other. I was ONLY pointing out that there are plenty of things in the game that can give you an advantage in combat without costing skill points. Whether or not the probot is more powerful than the others is worth discussing, but it doesn't trump my point that merely receiving a benefit does not indicate that there must be an xp loss. You people just cannot deny that the probot is the ONLY COMBAT ADVANTAGE IN THE GAME THAT COSTS YOU XP TO USE!!! It's undeniable. It's the truth. Accept it. Discussing which of the combat advantages (chef food, buffs, probots) that is better is NOT the discussion.
It's really quite simple. I'm a paying customer. I bought a probot for both the star wars feel, and to have some light back up. Nothing spectacular by any means. I didn't intend for it to do most of the damage at all. Instead, i've got a probot that has NOTHING but downside. He costs money to buy, money to maintain, and hogs all the action whether or not I want him to thus stealing the majority of my xp. You guys can scream balance all you want, but I'd assume you'd want there to be options in droids that allow people like myself to get REAL USE out of them and not just have a floating eye pleaser that steals xp.
Skizzik-
Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:09 pm
#50
Aglanon wrote:
Lamgwin wrote:
"And if you know a way to reduce the risk in combat like a droid does for a CL 1 crafter, please tell me, Atan would like to stay alive more"
Well that's easy as pie. Eat food, use spice, get doctor buffs. None of those things will cost you any skill points, and all of them reduce your risk in combat. Each to a different degree of course. But the principle, as they say, is the same.
That is the PERFECT example right there. Any of you going to claim that doctor buffs, spice and food don't give you an advantage in combat without sacrificing skill points? They each have their downsides (puking, buffs and food are shortlived and cost money) but so does probots (repair kits, having to pay for batteries and recharge, etc.)
Another easy solution is letting me actually CONTROL my droid by determining how much damage I want my probot to be doing so that when I'm a level 28 in a fight and wanting to use a probot for light backup duties, he doesn't practically kill my enemy and take all of the xp!
Better yet, why can't they just have droid certifications that work just like weapons certifications?
Sorry about the drama, I'd just love for probots or any droids to be more than a mildly amusing prop in this game.
I feel ya man. As of right now, i see no reason to get a combat droid. The lower lvl's that would benifit from using them don't want to use them because they want to get xp. When you are finished your grind and don't need the xp the droid will do nothing for you. It is just an inconvinience. You have to stop what you are doing, call the droid, program it and it is just one more thing you have to worry about instead of worrying about your target. i don't really see the benifit of using them as a combat profession. As a lvl 1 crafter i see a use in them. In the slim chance you have something around your harvesters/factories you can either tank them with the droid in order to escape death, or , if they have a low enough level, maybe even kill them and go about your business. I am seeing alot less creatures around my harvesters/factories now a days, so i don't see any other crafters stopping to think "Hey, I think i should go out to get a droid to protect me from all the baddies out there". They would rather just go about their task at hand, instead of actually wanting to go out to get a droid. They need to give people a reason to want to get one. I have no clue as to what needs to be done, but they gotta do something. THIS GAME NEEDS TO SEE MORE PEOPLE WITH DROIDS!
Lamgwin
Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:53 am
#51
Atan, as I keep pointing out, the amount of mitigation is not at issue. Please show me where I said that buffs and stuff are as good as a droid? I didn't.
I think you are deliberately missing the point, but I am going to try one more time. The question at hand is the principle. If you are going to try and claim that the principle in practice is that reduced risk equals reduced reward, then why is it that the only example you can find is probots?
Food? Oh those don't buff enough. Groups? Well those are people. Guns? Well you carry those. Armor? No you wear that.
Plenty of excuses. You claim to be interested in droid utility. You claim to be interested, in another thread, in COMBAT droid utility. Yet you repeatedly defend a false principle that is, literally for no reason, singling out combat droids for reduction in reward due to mitigated risk.
There are dozens of ways to reduced your risk and increase your effectiveness in this game. There are dozens of ways to reduce your effort and risk and increase your effectiveness that require NO investment of skill points and only SOME investment of money. Yet of ALL those ways, the ONLY one singled out for reward reduction is the droid. You, atan, seem to think this is good. I do not.
Neologist
Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:59 am
#52
dont have to use curse words or link to
inappropriate images to be trolling, flaming or otherwise harassing
people so don't do it.
inappropriate images to be trolling, flaming or otherwise harassing
people so don't do it.
Message Edited by GarVa on 09-14-2005 08:05 AM