Architect Archive
Thread: Intentions..... Price.. Structure ... and Availablity..
I hear ya D. Its too bad we are in this mess, but IMHO, it will take an Act of God (read:SOE) to put things in order. I respect the right of others to play as they wish, but I have to wonder if their style of play isn't hurting the game overall. Its not just about how *I* can have fun and what *I* want to do. I might enjoy managing 175 harvs, I might *like* turning out 1000 uber BE tissue every day, or pistols, or whatever. But is that good for Joe Newbie who wants to play the game as a WS, AR, DE, whatever. Is that person going to be able to, in the space of a few months, be able to actually support him/herself in the crafting profession they like? Is it good for the Game?
I quit playing on Test because of this. I could not support myself as a DE there. I p[layed on Test for about 6 months full-time, no Live toons at all. I ran survey missions 2 or 3 hours a day to pay for stuff. It sucked. I left, and have been sucessful on Live. Now I'm having fun.
If new players are not able to compete because they cannot handle or afford 175 harvesters, or crank out loads of crafted goods, then how will they survive? By taking up a combat prof. And if thats not fun for them, they quit.
Cereah wrote:
I think the way to fix the crafting system is:
-Fix the experimentation system, resources with atributes set to 0 must count in experimentation.
- Ad certifications to harvestors and factories, or disable admin rights on them.
- Make merchant skills needed to run vendors.
Are this fixes nerfs? Sure,nerfs are neededbecouse the make the whole game much more fun.
Huntercrom wrote:
Cereah wrote:
I think the way to fix the crafting system is:
-Fix the experimentation system, resources with atributes set to 0 must count in experimentation.
- Ad certifications to harvestors and factories, or disable admin rights on them.
- Make merchant skills needed to run vendors.
Are this fixes nerfs? Sure,nerfs are neededbecouse the make the whole game much more fun.
Why is this coming up over here? This is not viable to anyone. I'm sick of hearing about Harvester certifications, it's a topic that really needs to be left alone, as NOBODY wants it, with the exception of a few. The case FOR is not as strong as the case AGAINST, and it will never change.
As for Mechant Skills needed to run vendors, they do. However, because of the Dev's not FIXING the appropriate things, and bringing us things like the DE and ID improvements, rather than fixing bugs, then the Vendor bug issue will never get fixed. The Dev's are more interested in bringing us new content, adding to the already buggy climate, rather than fixing their problems that have been in the game longer than I have.
LonelyGhost wrote:
I hear ya D. Its too bad we are in this mess, but IMHO, it will take an Act of God (read:SOE) to put things in order. I respect the right of others to play as they wish, but I have to wonder if their style of play isn't hurting the game overall. Its not just about how *I* can have fun and what *I* want to do. I might enjoy managing 175 harvs, I might *like* turning out 1000 uber BE tissue every day, or pistols, or whatever. But is that good for Joe Newbie who wants to play the game as a WS, AR, DE, whatever. Is that person going to be able to, in the space of a few months, be able to actually support him/herself in the crafting profession they like? Is it good for the Game?
I quit playing on Test because of this. I could not support myself as a DE there. I p[layed on Test for about 6 months full-time, no Live toons at all. I ran survey missions 2 or 3 hours a day to pay for stuff. It sucked. I left, and have been sucessful on Live. Now I'm having fun.
If new players are not able to compete because they cannot handle or afford 175 harvesters, or crank out loads of crafted goods, then how will they survive? By taking up a combat prof. And if thats not fun for them, they quit.
I humbly suggest we need to examine our priorities, and re-evaluate our expectations for the game. Will reducing the flow of resource into the game be an overall boon? I think so. Yes, it will mean some major changes. But changes are not, by default, bad. They can be good. And in from the viewpoint of the game as a whole, IMHO, it would be a good thing.
I will have fun regardelss if I make quite as much as I do now, or if I cant craft as many things as I do now, or if I can no longer participate in all the activities I can now. But, if the changes make the game les fun for me, and I cannot accept it, I will quit. Its just a game. All I know is I feel really sorry when I see a newbie sampling in Theed someplace, trying to get some skills. They have no idea what they will have to face.
Again taking a SMALL SMALL SMALL number of people and expecting them to operate as a viable economic community is just plain ludicrous. There's MAYBE 10 Master Tailors operating on Tempest RIGHT NOW that actually produce ANYTHING. The answer has NOTHING to do with monopolies or saturation. There is BARELY me operating at a larger volume as a Master Architect and damn few others on the WHOLE SERVER because people cannot handle the time sink NOW required to remain successful as a architect. They fundamentally do not understand the concepts of marketing and brand development. Yet again, you not so subtly blame that on successful people.
Since you continue to bypass normal issues (capitalization, span of control, supply and demand) within an economic model for some socialist utopia please tell me how you are going to attract someone to a long-term position as a high volume AND quality producer of ANY craft in this game by making it impossible for them to rent lots now without massive amounts of overhead? Before we had ANY idea about cross-lotting I was renting lots as a newbie.
Although I may not have the answers to your envisioned delimma, further NERFING people in the game is not a solution that has worked ONCE to make this game better in any manner.
Fivo Asia
Pawlin wrote:
I really don't think that new players are at an unsurmountable disadvantage.
You don't need to run 175 harvesters to compete. And if others do then that doesn't mean you can't make a living. I personally run 10 harvesters and I do just fine.
Established players have the key advantage of well .. being established. So yes, thats an advantage. You get it from playing for a while. New players will eventually establish their businesses too. But they shouldn't expect to havea well known and established business in short order.
[snip]
People shouldn't expect success overnight. Most veteran players didn't start making millions on day 2. It took a lot of us a while of putting in hard work to get our businesses going. The newbies shouldn't expect different.
And another thing.
If you, as a group, would advocate IMPROVING the profession instead of nerfing things that DO have viable utility I mighthave moreconsideration for these positions. But I sure as hell don't see near the effort put into DAILY lobbying to get structures, furniture, etc.
Answers that simply nerf to "see what happens" continue to screw this game up more and more.
It's 0350 here in Pacific time and I just finished getting my harvs set down with two guild mates because we need those resources to help the docs in our guild. I do what needs to be done for the group and all I hear from most (here) is "make it harder till I'm affected".
Ultimately if money is all you wanted then you're a piss poor long-term planner and money is a shallow goal. Being a successfulcrafter means developing business plans and doing what is necessary to achieve them, not cry to the devs when someone has an advantage over you.
Fivo Asia
...tell me how you are going to attract someone to a long-term position as a high volume ... producer of ANY craft in this game
Do we need any one person, or group of 10 person's as a high-volume producer?
Again, I recognize that it is fun fo you. You obviously take pride in what you and your Guild are capable of. You *should* be proud. You are on the top of the heap on the whole server. No one else can attain the high level of quality and volume you can.
You will still be at the top of the heap, and produce the most things if they institute a change like removing Admin rights on harvs.
Your effort at maintaining a functioning Guild will still allow you to maintain your status as the premier provider of goods, it will just mean maybe you make 20 harvs today instead of 200.
Your Guild will still enjoy the fruits of your labor, and will still out-perform every other crafting Guild in the Galaxy.
It seems to me that you advocate things remaining as they are. It seems to me that you see no long-term issues with the game as it is. YOu are able to supply every toon on your server with every structure they would ever need.
I'm curious, if there is no problem with pricing, structure, and availability, then why are there so many voices out there debating it? I submit that there is a problem with our profession, and in fact the whole crafting profession, and that something needs to be changed or added to address these issues.
A SMALL group of people *CAN* operate as a viable economic community. I, as a solo crafter (when I was crafting) was a viable economic community. Most cities in the game that consider themselves shopping destinations are viable economic communities. Any small "Malls" you find scattered around the game are all viable economic communities. The issue is your definition of "viable". Your Guild will still be a viable economic community if changes are made to the game. You will adjust and carry on. Thats what dedicated people do.
YOu also said... <snip> ...people cannot handle the time sink NOW required to remain successful as a architect </snip>. Define successful? If you define it as having hundreds of every kind of harvester, home, and factory on your vendors, I would take issue. I define successful in this *game* as having fun, and being able to support yourself and your friends. I define it as being able to provide a useful service or product to other players in your area. Your Guild alone seems capable of providing goods to the whole *server*. I wonder if the new Architect in a planet 3 hops away is having fun trying to establish a business in a profession where the satuaration point has been met, and everyone goes to buy Architect goods elsewhere because they know they can get everything they need there. Anyprobably even cheaper.
Ugh. I just dont see any value in arguing that point. ou have a valid argument that you have the right to *be* the only provider of Architectural goods on the whole server. If you put the time and effort into it, you should have that. I just feel that we ought to be more concerned with the people around us. If what you are doing harms others needlessly, then why do it? Will you really be hurt if you shut down 20% of your operation?
You ask how it would attract people to a long-term profession? Easy. If there is a need for products (demand), and it is *worth* it to someone to invest in that profession (Supply), then they will. If people cannot make a living as a specific crafter, they wont do it (unless they are a glutton for pain).
I dont want new crafters to instantly become *successful*. I want to see them grow steadily, learning, and playing the game. I do not buy anything from mass retailers except in dire emergencies (like a great gas spawning I had to jump on). I often buy stuff and just destroy it if I know the crafter is a little new, or if they are having trouble getting cash.
Maybe I do advocate some *flavor* of a socialist environment in the game. It is a game, after all, and its only fair that everyone at least have a shot at working inside a profession. If this means the high-volume operators have to scale down their operations 30%, then I really dont see any harm. I run a alot of harvs, and this sort of change will affect me negatively as well. I'll suddenly be limited to only my own lots. I will probably have to start hiring people out. A hassle for me, but if its *worth* it to me, I will do it. It will certainly be worth it to those people I hire who currently are running missions to stay afloat.
Finally (/pant), yes, nerfing *has* done good in the past. It has affected the "good of the game". Do you really think the mission-exploits they nerfed way back when should not have been fixed? Nerfing bleeds to stop unfair XP grants? Nerfing Warcry to stop people killing stuff they shouldn't? Upcoming nerf to HAM's to make the (stupid) /con system worthy and to stop people from solo'ing the hardest mobs in the game? The list goes on. But dont take my word for it, ask the Devs. Its obvious they think its a good thing to nerf stuff. They really do have the good of the game at heart. Its their job, after all. Yes, they screw stuff up, dont communicate with us, are clueless about a lot of things, and have thier priorities messed up, but they *do* want the game to be successful.....for everyone.... not just the "best" person or people to the exclusion of all else. If there are imbalances in the game, they should be fixed. This will mean I have to change my style of play.
Again, the issue seems to be player's expectations. They expect to continue doing everything they are currently doing, with no change. This is unreasonable, IMHO.
Cafa wrote:
...Personally I really don't think your needs are relevant....
If it is fair for you to hold this stance then it is equally fair for other people to dismiss your needs too. If its fair for them to dismiss your needs then the rest of your argument supporting your side is lost on deaf ears.
I have watched 48 people try to apprentice under me and 46 run away screaming at the amount of overhead it takes to replace a single income in missions with architectural crafting. This is not a snapshot, this is nine months of watching the same thing over and over again. Only 2 have been successful enough (in their own minds) to stay with the craft...
I'm honestly a bit surprised that the rate of success was so low . Did those people just not liek the work involved in mastering and running a crafting profession in general? I really wouldn't think architect would be particularly hard especially with someoneestablished like you helping them out. Seems to me that only certain people are really apt for crafting work and that we're probably the minority amung all the folks who just want to kill stuff.
...Instead of championing your position you continue the Thuderheart methodology of labelling my efforts to succeed in my goals as an evil.
When has anyone labeled you or what you do as "evil"? I have yet to see anyone use the word "evil".
...
Message Edited by ZeckAzuenden on 06-08-2004 01:38 PM
Pawlin wrote:
Cafa wrote:
...Personally I really don't think your needs are relevant....
If it is fair for you to hold this stance then it is equally fair for other people to dismiss your needs too. If its fair for them to dismiss your needs then the rest of your argument supporting your side is lost on deaf ears.
Way out of context there, Pawlin. Personal NEEDS define desire, not mechanical or semantic shortcomings of architecture or harvestors. Therein lies my point. And I still state that needs are irrelevant if they are defined by feelings. Either state facts or do not. There is no try...
I have watched 48 people try to apprentice under me and 46 run away screaming at the amount of overhead it takes to replace a single income in missions with architectural crafting. This is not a snapshot, this is nine months of watching the same thing over and over again. Only 2 have been successful enough (in their own minds) to stay with the craft...
I'm honestly a bit surprised that the rate of success was so low . Did those people just not liek the work involved in mastering and running a crafting profession in general? I really wouldn't think architect would be particularly hard especially with someoneestablished like you helping them out. Seems to me that only certain people are really apt for crafting work and that we're probably the minority amung all the folks who just want to kill stuff.
Ultimately, I would agree with this. I fundammentally believe that people of different mindsets are better or drawn to different things. We got a guy on our server that can take the SAME PvP template as anyone else and almost always win. He has an edge that cannot be defined with just spacial awareness. As for apprentices, I was levelled to master through Mordon, for those of you that might know that name on Tempest. Well over 400 walls and every single item possible to make at the time with lengthy discussions on how to succeed with the technical side of the architect biz. He answered my questions because I was polite and HELPED HIM. Most apprentices wanted the coolness till they spent 2 or more weeks doing the drudge work. In the end, it was always resource surveying and management that made them give up arch.
...Instead of championing your position you continue the Thuderheart methodology of labelling my efforts to succeed in my goals as an evil.
When has anyone labeled you or what you do as "evil"? I have yet to see anyone use the word "evil".
Okay, so I'll back off the evil. But his position of response is nerf anyone that is successful playing within the rules. In MY opinion that's the same ole' monopoly cry I get from TH whenever he doesn't have a coherent answer either. The holo-craze put people in the mindset of too fast a pace. The so-called benevolent devs destroyed the first large town and guild I was a part of with this fervor. Somehow, after spending most of what I had to try and save the town I have little faith in their caring attitudes. Anyone that tells me I need to be nerfed again to satisfy their wants I hold in the same light.
Fivo Asia
Cafa,
In almost every situation, there is the individual (or group of individuals) who profit from the rules the way they are. The lone TKM who makes mad credits soloing Janta missions, the Novice CH's who commanded Rancors, etc...
Just because it's within the rules, does not make itthe best thing for the game. The ones above have lost or soon will lose the ability to do those things, because the rules change. I applaud your creativity and the ability to maximize your potential within the rules, but I disagree that the rules are right for the game.
Nice response 
I agree that the rules need to change. Nerf admin rights on harvs just won't really change anything for organized people as I hope I have demonstrated.
Why hurt the little guy when this nerf has no basis in validity? My point all along.
Fivo Asia