Architect Archive
Thread: Intentions..... Price.. Structure ... and Availablity..
the prob we have with pricing and what the devs intended things to be like come down to1 huge mistake by the devs during Beta. removing mining and industrialest from the equasion you can never factor in the "value" of resorces as long as everybody is able to drop down harvesters. this is what ruind the economy from the start it never had a chance to be ballanced out. but this is what we are stuck with. as long as any archatect is able to drop down 5 or 6 harvesters themself (not to mention multi acc and cross server lot traiding) there will always be much lower prices.
Dont get me wrong because I was the biggest voice agenst all the changes to crafters during beta that has brought us to this point but the truth is the "masses" dont want a working economy and any sort of meaningfull crafting chars. thay just want there alts to make items and money and the devs caved in to them and turnd what could of been a great player driven economy and meaningfull crafting game in to just another MMO.
but without things like revocation, mining, farming andindustrialest value of things is almost nothing. as long as 1 char is able to harvest resorces desighn and mass produce items and run the vendors to sell there items all by themself. the value of the items will never be much more then the cost of running the harvesters and structers to make them yourself.
Is it what the devs intended pre beta? no. but it is what the masses cryed about and got the devs to change during beta and is what we have now.
I'm fairly certain that well over half if not 2/3 of the resources available on every server come from static lot swaps.
There are a few main points that have led us to the state...
- It now takes as little as 45 minutes to grind to Master Architect. Any profession that can be mastered in such little time will of course not have any respect from other professions. This is also reflected in the prices charged by those who have ground that prof. They want to make a profit on it as quick as possible and to start earning "the big money" - my comments btw.
- There is no differential between the products that architects produce. A chair is a chair, a small house is a small house, a BER13 Harvestor is a BER13 Harvestor (small differences in hopper size not withstanding). This is different from other professions where a great deal of differentiation exists even amongst those at Master level.
- The market for new harvestors (our main money earners by far) is shrinking with the ending of the Holocron phase out. Although trade levels are moving back to what they were before the grinding craze started, the ease of attaining Master Architect has meant that there are now far more Master Architects on most servers than at any time previously.
- We do have the lowest transfer cost of all of the professions, with most architects lucky to get more than 4cpu for the cost of the resources when transferred to a final product. The low collection levels of ore mean most have to either buy their resources from others (if you are running a single account which most do - myself included) or have multiple accounts or lot swap between servers (and hope that you get a nice spawn in each week under your statics). This generally means that even though the ones who can mine 100% of their resources can clain to be making a significant profit on the low resource transference cost, those who do not and have to buy their resources generally make borderline profits (it at all).
- The general attitude of players (ie; customers) in the game is largely responsible. There now exists a mindset in game that saysit is outrageous to pay more than 90k for a BER13 Harvestor that never decays, but its ok to pay 400k for a suit of Composite Armour that will fall apart after a couple of run throughs on the Corvette or the Bunker.
There are a whole myriad of other issues that have impacted on our profession, but I can't be bothered spending more time on this. These have all been said before, and will undoubtable be all said again.
I'm not quite as into it as some of the rest of you guys and gals, but I see many things changing with everyone once the grinding comes to an end.
There isn't going to be a need for the billions of resources that people are yanking up everyday. When the need goes away, I see most people getting out of the resources business. No more huge lot swaps or any of that, because there wont' be masses of people wanting (or needing) the resources.
I think that a lot of the so called "architects" out there will dump the profession and go back to combat once the grinding comes to an end (because, lets face it, this is not the most exciting profession). They'll do the Jedi Quests on a rifleman, or TKM or something similar since I'm sure it will be combat oriented in many spots. This will help us weed out the monkeys that are selling architect and artisan goods for practically nothing (and bottoming out the prices).
I think we'll be fine once things settle for a month or two. Maybe not the way the Devs intended, but fine.
Urofseron
PS
When all you hologrinding monkeys get desperate and are stuck with all the millions upon millions of resources, gimme a yell :-) I'll buy it forup to 1/2 credit per CPU 
Pawlin wrote:
Dvnce wrote:
...But you are right .. what do we do now? We certainly cant raise our prices... because so many make it clear that they will never do that.. So I guess that is the underlying question of this thread.. What to do .. How do you fix a craft.. that has been hurt by making the meat of its products TOOO easy to obtain?
I think the root problems we have with pricing on most items are:
a) quality for our goods either doesn't matter or its too easy to get maximum quality
b) its too easy to get to master.
When the quality doesn't matter or if everyone can easily achieve maximum quality then that makes competing on the basis of the quality of the goods a moot point. I can't charge more for my BER13 harvesters just cause they are better cause everyone else makes BER13 harvesters. My white armoire is just as good as another master and my small house is equal to that of a novice. If quality is equal then that only leaves things like availability or customer service to compete on before you start undercutting people.
Furthermore if it is easy to master our craft then that makes for more competition. If you could master weaponsmith in 3 hours then I think there would be a lot more weaponsmiths and therefore some more competition on prices.
Some things that might help us:
Make it so that more of our items vary in quality.
Make it harder to achieve higher quality.
Make it harder to master the profession.
If the quality of factories mattered then a master could potentially make a very factory and sell it for100k.
If it was harder to master the profession then you would have fewer people doing it and it would be less likely to result in price competition and less difficult for the serious crafters to sustain businesses.
LonelyGhost wrote:
Maybe I'm crazy, but for the past week a feeling has been growing slowly...a tingle up the spine here & there when i read certain words... the feeling is that the Devs are slowly working things out so that the state of the game you mention (harder to get "achievment" items) will once again be true.
Lets face it, it wouldnt be hard at all to "fix" this. All they would have to do is nerf admin rights on harvesters (keeping hopper though) and lower the ber of harvesters to what they were at launch.
Those 2 "simple" fixes would have a significant cascading effect. Lot swaps would essentially be dead, and the rate at which we pull in resources would drop by an order of magniude. Less resources = less crafted items. Less crafted items = more demand and harder to make = higher prices. Higher prices = fewer sales. Fewer sales = more of an accomplishment to have one.
Having a resource stack of 100k would be impressive. Making a fusion would be an uncommon thing. Pa Hall even more so. Architects might begin to specialize a little more again. New markets might open up in regions where in the past, a single Architect dominated the whole planet. People would begin to appreciate their structures more. Small houses would sell for more than a friggin speeder bike again!
I believe the Devs do indeed wish they had done things differently in the past. I believe they are slowly working it out so one day you will rarely see anyone with more than a million credits in the game, and that person would probably be the lead person for a Guild-backed effort. Frankly, I am astonished that we have not seen a mission-payout nerf! They say the overall game is running at a deficit, but I find it hard to believe. All I know is thata properly equipped Fighter can make over a million in a single day. That seems a bit much. It has dealued the credit.
If they are indeed working toward this, it will take a long time for it to come to pass. There are a lot of people out there with a LOT of resources saved up, and who have a LOT of deeds for a LOT of different things. It will take a long time for those things to dissapear from the game. And the longer they wait to institute changes, the worse it will be.
The fabled "combat balance" might be the first step, if it will indeed make those high-paying missions much harder to do (impossible to solo). Thefewer credits entering the system, the more the credit will be worth.
I quote the whole thing because I want to make sure you understand why I think you are wrong.
If the point of the game is not massive multi-player on the crafting side of the house then why have a guild system at all?
I really tire of being told that I am wrong/evil/whatever because I have been sucesssful in getting a guild of almost 200 people to work together. The hundreds of hours I have spent developing a large infrastructure that works to benefit our guild are well within the concept and spirit of this game. We pay our $15 (per character 
) too mate. I DID NOT start off in beta and I did fine. Your answer of nerfing harvestor admin rights to screw everyone that plays within the rules is fundamentally selfish, IMO.
Fivo Asia
StumanKadir wrote:
There are a few main points that have led us to the state...
- [snip]
- The general attitude of players (ie; customers) in the game is largely responsible. There now exists a mindset in game that saysit is outrageous to pay more than 90k for a BER13 Harvestor that never decays, but its ok to pay 400k for a suit of Composite Armour that will fall apart after a couple of run throughs on the Corvette or the Bunker.
There are a whole myriad of other issues that have impacted on our profession, but I can't be bothered spending more time on this. These have all been said before, and will undoubtable be all said again.
Specifically on this one issue; my prices on BER 13 heavies have been 140k water, 160k mineral, deep crust, floral, 180k gas. These have not changed since Nov 2003. I have never advertised. I sold 22 BER 13 heavy gas harvs this last weekend.
Jumped over to Valcyn and on Tatooine (where I have some characters) the first five Architects selling heavies had all their prices similar to mine on Tempest. I saw no 90K heavies for sale on Valcyn Tatooine.
Fivo Asia
Cafa wrote:
LonelyGhost wrote:
Maybe I'm crazy, but for the past week a feeling has been growing slowly...a tingle up the spine here & there when i read certain words... the feeling is that the Devs are slowly working things out so that the state of the game you mention (harder to get "achievment" items) will once again be true.
Lets face it, it wouldnt be hard at all to "fix" this. All they would have to do is nerf admin rights on harvesters (keeping hopper though) and lower the ber of harvesters to what they were at launch.
Those 2 "simple" fixes would have a significant cascading effect. Lot swaps would essentially be dead, and the rate at which we pull in resources would drop by an order of magniude. Less resources = less crafted items. Less crafted items = more demand and harder to make = higher prices. Higher prices = fewer sales. Fewer sales = more of an accomplishment to have one.
Having a resource stack of 100k would be impressive. Making a fusion would be an uncommon thing. Pa Hall even more so. Architects might begin to specialize a little more again. New markets might open up in regions where in the past, a single Architect dominated the whole planet. People would begin to appreciate their structures more. Small houses would sell for more than a friggin speeder bike again!
I believe the Devs do indeed wish they had done things differently in the past. I believe they are slowly working it out so one day you will rarely see anyone with more than a million credits in the game, and that person would probably be the lead person for a Guild-backed effort. Frankly, I am astonished that we have not seen a mission-payout nerf! They say the overall game is running at a deficit, but I find it hard to believe. All I know is thata properly equipped Fighter can make over a million in a single day. That seems a bit much. It has dealued the credit.
If they are indeed working toward this, it will take a long time for it to come to pass. There are a lot of people out there with a LOT of resources saved up, and who have a LOT of deeds for a LOT of different things. It will take a long time for those things to dissapear from the game. And the longer they wait to institute changes, the worse it will be.
The fabled "combat balance" might be the first step, if it will indeed make those high-paying missions much harder to do (impossible to solo). Thefewer credits entering the system, the more the credit will be worth.
I quote the whole thing because I want to make sure you understand why I think you are wrong.
If the point of the game is not massive multi-player on the crafting side of the house then why have a guild system at all?
I really tire of being told that I am wrong/evil/whatever because I have been sucesssful in getting a guild of almost 200 people to work together. The hundreds of hours I have spent developing a large infrastructure that works to benefit our guild are well within the concept and spirit of this game. We pay our $15 (per character
Fivo Asia
I agree with you from the point that a person should not be penalized for working hard to be successful in the game. Lot swaps within the same serveris fine in my opinion.
Cross-server lot trades go against that spirit and is what I would support they end.
But it should not take ALL 200 of them logging in everyday to manage things. When I get a call of wanting a hunt to help the docs, everyone in the guild should not personally have to become a fighter / scout hybrid to do that -- only the people interested.
When we need storage the people that don't use lots cough them up and never care again. My crafters group pays the maintenance and manages them.
When the guild's STATIC LOTS need to be managed I do that. They are donated and your changes would do nothing more than hurt us.
I have some cross lots, fully admit. 40 of them for harvs. These are there to get grind minerals. The inclusion of these lots was to ward off the idiots that were holding the grind mineral (read ore) market virtually hostage. Again, I point out, I do not sell resources. I do, however, hoard them for my guild and secular groups therein. Another difference in my lots to others is that the players who placed those lots DO log on Tempest to play and I do log onto their server to play with their group too.
All your changes would do, IMO, is add another time layer for people to get around and make me want to quit managing guild harvs. The real people you want to get at would easily be able to circumvent even this by selling credits to finance multiple accounts. Along with them you would make life impossible for the many many crafters that simply rent lots. Solutions that make the game more inane by time sinks are not solutions, they are nerfs.
Lemme make ber 30 harvestors and I guarantee resources will never be a problem again for almost anyone. You might not like MY proposal, so please don't expect me to like yours.
Fivo Asia
I have to agree that things are looking bleak. Resource prices are dropping fast, I personally won't pay more than 1.5cpu for any resource, except some metal with HR/SR/UT all over 900.
The problems that contributed to this:
1. Harvestors should have been BER 4,7,10 and not changed. Experimentation is a good thing, but it should not have raised the caps. There are way too many resources available these days.
2. You should be able to put people on the hopper list for harvestors but not the admin list. Lot trades are increasing the amount of resources exponentially. If a person owns a harvestor they should be responsible for operating it. I personally have quite a few harvestors from trades and guild mates, but I think it is a bad thing and has lead to problems.
3. Harvestors should have a sliding maintenance scale, or items that break on it. For example a new harvestor should cost 7cpu/hr, after 500hours of use it should increase to 10, then 15, then 20.... People can continue to use harvesotrs forever, but they need to figure out the break even on the value of getting new ones that operate more cheaply. From time to time, harvestors should have drill bits break, fluid pumps fail......
4. House should have the same type of sliding scale maintenance over time. But let people reduce the maintenance on houses with upgrade kits. Sounds cheezy, but have folks put in a new power core once every 2-3 months. Require new windows or paint modules..... Anyone who owns a home knows we are always buying or doing things for our homes, water heaters, plumbing, electical, paint, landscaping, windows, insulation, carpet.......
5. Houses have no utility to players at this point other than for storage. Where is the benefit for players to spend X credits per month? I think they need to make houses more of a necessity. Reduce bank saftey box storage to 20 items. Give bonuses to repairing armor or weapons in your own house. Allow players to go to sleep in their houses when they log off and it will heal BF and wounds while they are out of game, slowly.
There is no ability to customize any of our items, so there is nothing to help support higher prices. Some people do it through good customer service. On Intrepid 135k to 150k for a heavy harv was pretty standard. Now there are people saying that have 100 of each deed on vendors and are dropping prices to 100k.
The market is saturated. Those of us who are already masters will probably survive and do ok like we have for months. But there is no way anyone new joining the game could make it as an architect in my opinion.