Architect Archive

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Cafa wrote:

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Pawlin wrote:

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Cafa wrote:

...Personally I really don't think your needs are relevant....

If it is fair for you to hold this stance then it is equally fair for other people to dismiss your needs too. If its fair for them to dismiss your needs then the rest of your argument supporting your side is lost on deaf ears.

Way out of context there, Pawlin. Personal NEEDS define desire, not mechanical or semantic shortcomings of architecture or harvestors. Therein lies my point. And I still state that needs are irrelevant if they are defined by feelings. Either state facts or do not. There is no try...

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People in general are emotional to various degree. Summarily dismissing peoples emotions/ feelings won't win you arguments with the people exhibiting the emotions/feelings.

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Cafa wrote:

Okay, so I'll back off the evil. But his position of response is nerf anyone that is successful playing within the rules. In MY opinion that's the same ole' monopoly cry I get from TH whenever he doesn't have a coherent answer either. The holo-craze put people in the mindset of too fast a pace. The so-called benevolent devs destroyed the first large town and guild I was a part of with this fervor. Somehow, after spending most of what I had to try and save the town I have little faith in their caring attitudes. Anyone that tells me I need to be nerfed again to satisfy their wants I hold in the same light.

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What happened to your town and guild exactly?

Its become a little more clear to me that you have been subjected to a string of nasty situations in your time here... crafting station screwups, cities dying, are the 2 I rememeber. YOu are also obviously not a fan of TH, and maybe even Devs in general. I am glad to see someone who cares about the game enough to get so passionate about it, but I wonder if maybe the bad things you have had to deal with have clouded your view of things. I cant believe any of the Devs want to punish anyone successful. I bet they get a kick out of players making their way through the game. You keep accusing me of being selfish and maybe even greedy, but I thought I had made it clear that these sort of changes will force me to change the way I play, and reduce my effectiveness significantly. I have actually been stocking up for the winter, in case such an event comes to pass. I know I will need time to adjust to a new style of play. I dont want to you to fail, and it wouldn't matter anyway, because I am sure that no matter what chnages, you will still be successful. That is the mark of a dedicated person. I wish more people were dedicated to playing the game like that, instead of trying to find as many exploits as they can to cheat thier way up.

Now bits and pieces I wanted to respond to...

Yes, my needs are important...just as important as yours.

Maybe other people can become as successful as you as an Architect...but why try? The cost would be prohibitive. And probably not fun, either. You ARE at the top, and you are so because of the time you put in. I dont devalue that. As to your personal goal of... to create one strong guild of people that can have fun together... you say nothing of a desire to produce and sell the most Architectural goods on the server. So why do you? If your goal is to just have fun with your Guildmates, there are other ways to do that. Bottom line...you have the right to play the game in any way you want. But you should not begrudge others from playing how they want. And the whole issue is moot, as the Devs will do whatever they want to do anyway. If I am so selfish, why do you rabidly defendyour playstyle...can you not see other fun ways to play the game? Can you not see that other people in the game of 300k+ might be better served if some changes were made? Your "market share" will be minimally affected by changes. As long as you want, you will be as successful as you are right now.

This whole game is a timesink. So adding layers is a natural part of its evolution. THings wont get easier, for the most part...they will get harder. Let say it again...IMHO, the Devs want to see more people selling smaller amounts of stuff that what we have right now. Cut 10%-30% off all the big providers of all crafted goods, and give that to the little guy. The little guy can handle that. There may not be such a thing as a "little" Architect due to the resource needs, save furniture I suppose. But there can easily be "small businesses" selling Armor, weapons, droids, Foods, etc... The large buinesses make that sort of thing very difficult for th elittle guy.

Heres the part I want to stress about that: The little guys is ALREADY hurting! The way things are now ALREADY make it hard or even impossible to do stuff. The changes I refer to will have little effect on the little guy because he does NOT do the things that the changes would change, like cross-server lot swaps. It will actually HELP him becuase of the increased need for stuff (since the large producers would likely scale down their big business).

The "penalization" I champion here is minor. Your business would still be successful, and you would still be more than able to meet your stated goals of having fun with your friends. What it would do is open up small markets for goods all over the Galaxy for the smaller crafter to fill. And BTW, only having "minimal" production capabilities is *not* a "bad thing". If you can produce enough to meet your goals and the goals of the people around you, you are a success. You dont have to make hundreds of harvs a day to be a success. A persons "market share" does not have to be greater than 50%...it is perfectly reasonable and woudl be plenty worthwhile to have a 2% market share. Again, if it meets your goals, you win.

I'm sure I would agree with you that I hijacked the thread...D was asking if people thought the system as it stands is lacking. If renewable income was enough....if the ease of getting all our products was intended...working hard to get our products shoudl be the norm...

My responses are about the Architect profession, and all crafting at the same time. My responses refer to the system and if it is in need of change, and how I expect it will help. My responses are on a subject matter that is the foundation of the game....resources. If resources were to disappear, the game ends, period. Not so with credits. If credits disappeared, the game would convert to a barter economy, and continue. Since Architects are the largest consumer of resources, the issue affects usto a larger degree than others. I dont see anywhere where he advocates against price-fixing. He is simply, IMHO, stating his opinion that the game did not progress in the way it might have been designed to. If anything he advocates up raising prices (my interpretation).

I will not be "gaining" anything is these changes ever come about. I will be hurt too, so again, its not a selfish motivation. I dont want you to stop being successful. I'm glad you are. If I ever need to buy something I cant make, I'll probably head your way 'cause I know you'll have what I need. Unless someone in my local area is also selling it, and then I will buy from them.

If the reward for doing an inane task is worth it, people will do it. They do it every day. They will do it if changes like this ever happen.

I dont advocate full-on Socialism. You cant really havea player economy then. But I *would* like to see more players becoming active in a small crafting profession business. Its this *flavor* of Soicialism I would like, one where the "rules" of the game are such that those players have an opportunity to be successful in a small business. Small. They would be the corner bookstore, and you would be Wal*Mart. Both get what they want out of the game. As it stands now, with lot-swaps, the large groups who ALREADY have the advantage of numbers on their side can easily enhance it with swaps, something the small guy cannot do.

I'm not sure where you got that I was not successful, and that it must be behind my "cries for nerf", but its not true. I am successful as a resource dealer. I have plenty of credits, and all the deeds, equipment, and things I need to have fun. I am living my goal, just like you. Unlike my understanding of your position, I am willing to sacrifice a small bit to allow a lot of other people to have fun too. My guild mates wont let me finance their crafting forays. They want to try and do it themselves. Some are hovering between 100k and 500k credits usually, but they cant quite get over that hump. The others are stuck at less than 100k. They cant compete when everyone goes to the large suppliers. If harvs are nerfed, those hit the hardest will be the big businesses. They will still *be* big businesses, but they will be hurt the most. Hurt is a relative word, btw. Hurt to a Millionaire is less hurtful than to someone with 20k in the bank.

ABout nerfing...again, how are these nerfs to *my* advantage? I never ran those missions, so it didn't affect me (I was a working Chef then). But it was imbalancing. Unfair to a large piece of the population. It was nerfed for the good of the game. LIke it or not, most of them were. People were taking advantage of the state of things to get more and go farther than they shoudl have. I really try to keep my eye on the big picture when I look over nerf-lists. I was a Swordsman when that nerf git, and I removed the bleed attack from my toolbar. Same with Warcry. But I still got to have fun as a Swordsmen.

Finally, you do not back up your statements with "fact" any more than I. We both are speaking from our "feelings", so criticizing me is hypocritical. i dont believe I was ever whining, but it seems you might be. Whining that your playstyle might have to change. I welcome it. I want it, obviously. The game is too easy. Imagine how much more challenging it will be if they do indeed put schematic limits to 100? I would welcome it. It would make the game a challenge. You seem to like a challenge, and its mystifying to me why you would oppose things to make the game more challenging. New people will face the same challenges as they do now, but they would have a chance to make it.

But the Architect business is already in trouble, and that issue is another whole ball of wax.

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LonelyGhost wrote:

Its become a little more clear to me that you have been subjected to a string of nasty situations in your time here... crafting station screwups, cities dying, are the 2 I rememeber. YOu are also obviously not a fan of TH, and maybe even Devs in general. I am glad to see someone who cares about the game enough to get so passionate about it, but I wonder if maybe the bad things you have had to deal with have clouded your view of things. I cant believe any of the Devs want to punish anyone successful. I bet they get a kick out of players making their way through the game. You keep accusing me of being selfish and maybe even greedy, but I thought I had made it clear that these sort of changes will force me to change the way I play, and reduce my effectiveness significantly. I have actually been stocking up for the winter, in case such an event comes to pass. I know I will need time to adjust to a new style of play. I dont want to you to fail, and it wouldn't matter anyway, because I am sure that no matter what chnages, you will still be successful. That is the mark of a dedicated person. I wish more people were dedicated to playing the game like that, instead of trying to find as many exploits as they can to cheat thier way up.

[snip]

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You sir, have deifinitely gained my respect. More in the morning.

Fivo Asia

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LonelyGhost wrote:

Maybe I'm crazy, but for the past week a feeling has been growing slowly...a tingle up the spine here & there when i read certain words... the feeling is that the Devs are slowly working things out so that the state of the game you mention (harder to get "achievment" items) will once again be true.

Lets face it, it wouldnt be hard at all to "fix" this. All they would have to do is nerf admin rights on harvesters (keeping hopper though) and lower the ber of harvesters to what they were at launch.

Those 2 "simple" fixes would have a significant cascading effect. Lot swaps would essentially be dead, and the rate at which we pull in resources would drop by an order of magniude. Less resources = less crafted items. Less crafted items = more demand and harder to make = higher prices. Higher prices = fewer sales. Fewer sales = more of an accomplishment to have one.

Having a resource stack of 100k would be impressive. Making a fusion would be an uncommon thing. Pa Hall even more so. Architects might begin to specialize a little more again. New markets might open up in regions where in the past, a single Architect dominated the whole planet. People would begin to appreciate their structures more. Small houses would sell for more than a friggin speeder bike again!

I believe the Devs do indeed wish they had done things differently in the past. I believe they are slowly working it out so one day you will rarely see anyone with more than a million credits in the game, and that person would probably be the lead person for a Guild-backed effort. Frankly, I am astonished that we have not seen a mission-payout nerf! They say the overall game is running at a deficit, but I find it hard to believe. All I know is thata properly equipped Fighter can make over a million in a single day. That seems a bit much. It has dealued the credit.

If they are indeed working toward this, it will take a long time for it to come to pass. There are a lot of people out there with a LOT of resources saved up, and who have a LOT of deeds for a LOT of different things. It will take a long time for those things to dissapear from the game. And the longer they wait to institute changes, the worse it will be.

The fabled "combat balance" might be the first step, if it will indeed make those high-paying missions much harder to do (impossible to solo). Thefewer credits entering the system, the more the credit will be worth.

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You have a VERY valid point. But consider how it was early on in the game. Everyone was dropping 8 personal harvestors EVERYWHERE in an attempt to meet the demand of minerals.

getting stacks above 20k was an effort and a half. Imagine trying to run from bazzar to bazzar trying to find enough of the same kind to make anything at all.

Now if Lot trades were done with..the demand would be high. Yes prices would increase ALOT...but you would also have to ioperate your own harvestors to prevent the price goudging that every tom **edit** and harry who can drop a harvestor would charge you.

Thingsa like this won't stop the true Miner in any rate. Some of us put MONTHS worth of power and credits into our harvestors. Once that cycle has started it is self perpetuating. Every two months the Great Miners of the servers would log onto their crossserver accounts and add the cash and power for the next few months..and the beneficiary would then go do the same on the other Miners server. Thats not that big a hassle for those of us who are already established...yet make it IMPOSSI BLE for anyone else to start up to compete against us.

The over all market as it stands is full of excess dupped credits...that and missions is our biggest issue. MY issue is the only ones affected are those Loyal few bastards like us who continue to play. The exploiters are waiting untill the SE saving their vast wealth, and those of us who remained thru it thick and thin will be the ones to pay the tab.

I dont know what the answre is...but shutting us down will create a huge vaccume and demand will rise sharply, and it might take us all a while to regain our footing. That might not be all bad....But if they are going to institute this they better do it BEFOR JTL not after. If they do it after people like me will have so much bloody resources to craft ships with that We will never be truely stopped...because we can simply reinvest it all and make even more once the overall demand rises.

I have always sold my resources relitivly cheap by most standards..2 to 4cpu no matter what (no goudging) and i still make the 30 million i need to put back into them every two months. Plus I allow people to do other things with their lots.

When they scrapped the Mining Profession and allowed any and everyone to drop things..thats when it began to get out of wack. CERTS on harvestors would stop most of your concerns.

Personal Harvestor Certification Use: all novice professions

Medium Harvestor CertificationUse: Lvl 4 Survey

Heavy Harvestor Certification Use: Advanced Crafting Profession Mastery

Ya want to slow down the influx...that would do it....but it would also make it very hard for the up and comming crafters to be able to compete. Trust in the laws of Free Market. Those who cannot obtain enough Market share..will simply go out of business. I dont operate a monopoly...if someone ccan gain cash another way they can easily do what I do....and if they do It better or cheaper than I can..I will go out of business and do something else.

This is a very complex issue...trying to allow everyone who wants to craft to do so..and try to create a market...and with that being the case..you simply cannot regulate it effectivly by artificial means. Oncce they "bleed our pocketbooks dry" tothe point where they think they have this dup credit inflation undercontroll and when people come back and actually PLAY THIS GAME the demand for your products will rise...as will the compitition in prices...thats what a Free Market is about folks.

We can talk "What if" all day, and not acomplish anything. Also, any changes to maintainence costs, admin rights etc, will be recieved with a huge outcry of indignation.

What we need to do is sit down and discuss, with constuctive ideas, ideas on where to go from this point forward using existing game models & designs. If we can come up with a consensus that is not difficult to impliment, and does not negatively impact other players, we have a much better chance of getting some sort of correction. Our esteemed correspondent has made a few suggestions aka disposable harvesters, and others have mentioned us making bases & such.

I personally like the idea of factional construction. TH was quoted here as saying such stuctures will ALWAYS be Faction Point purchased, but perhaps he can be persuaded that the original concept for architects has become untenable, and reconsider. This will cost nothing in art (or very little), and just a few adjustments in coding. One example.

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LonelyGhost wrote:

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...tell me how you are going to attract someone to a long-term position as a high volume ... producer of ANY craft in this game

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Do we need any one person, or group of 10 person's as a high-volume producer?

Personally I really don't think your needs are relevant. How about, "Do we need to be socialists in order to gain market share?". That is what you are advocating.

Again, I recognize that it is fun fo you. You obviously take pride in what you and your Guild are capable of. You *should* be proud. You are on the top of the heap on the whole server. No one else can attain the high level of quality and volume you can.

NO - Again you are wrong, and quite frankly I take offense at this statement. You keep saying NO ONE ELSE CAN DO "X". Well, I did it! I'm proof that you can take on the beta players, the ancients, and still have success. I DEFINE architectural crafting success as good cash flow in exchange for services and the ability to use that cash to further your personal goals. Please notice, I do not say guild/group/whatever. It is MY personal goal to create one strong guild of people that can have fun together. If you think about it - not too unlike RL, just the semantics are FAR easier in this game. All it would take for someone to take my market share is day in, day out production. We had a hit of some WS gas that is the best ever on the weekend. I sold over 8 million credits in gas heavies because the majority of the competition has ZERO heavy gas harvs on their vendors and those that do have not created the extended relationships over the entire server on the scale I have, in my opinion. Not the guild, me. The guild comes into play on everything BUT architect work.

You will still be at the top of the heap, and produce the most things if they institute a change like removing Admin rights on harvs.

And you think that's what's important from what example? I said creating MORE timesinks is going to ruin the game. This, ultimately, is all you are advocating from my viewpoint -- Timesinks. You are not hurting me or mine in any manner. You are PREVENTING the small guy from ever establishing a large business in the architect field because of the inordinate amount of resources he/she will not be able to glean without many multiple accounts. REPEATING, no conceivable combinations of nerfs mentioned would affect me more than irritating me with more timesinks. The effect realistically would be to make MORE of what you are advocating the nerf to accomplish. I've made a good life in the real world, I don't need or desire yes friends or accolades. I play the game because I LIKE the goals I can achieve, not the achievements I can goal.

Your effort at maintaining a functioning Guild will still allow you to maintain your status as the premier provider of goods, it will just mean maybe you make 20 harvs today instead of 200.

Your Guild will still enjoy the fruits of your labor, and will still out-perform every other crafting Guild in the Galaxy.

Exactly where did I say we had 200 harvs down? we usually have, at most 120ish, and they ALL move with each shift unless they are sitting on something. You advocate me not being able to stuff cash/power into them, so I further have to have non-interested lot holders involved in a timesink and ultimately THAT is my issue. Our guild is about having FUN with very MINIMAL structure, but the key players that keep the guild strong do these functions AS PROVIDED FOR IN THE RULES OF THIS GAME. The logical extension to your argument is no one being able to group for missions, healing only in hospitals and quite a few other things that would just add to the annoyance factor until people said screw it and quit.

It seems to me that you advocate things remaining as they are. It seems to me that you see no long-term issues with the game as it is. YOu are able to supply every toon on your server with every structure they would ever need.

You advocate NOTHING but penalizing players that are successful and those that actually *gasp* develop relationships beyond the almighty credit. If you have followed ANYTHING that I have written in the past 9 months the above paragraph is ludicrous. But, just as Harv Certs, as recently asked for, are a bad option this one is even worse. Your solution keeps everyone at the most MINIMAL ability to produce unless they buy accounts or can log into other toons. Just FYI, we have 7 toons in my RL household and I can log into 19 more at will. So, again, I have demonstrated that you *solution* will not realistically affect me in any manner but added timesink. However the small guy and others that do not have relationships in game on that level will be devastated. Furthermore, the fact that they cannot make the integration of a lot rental as easy as it is now will most likely prevent them from achieving goals of market share. My intuition focuses on the fact that you cannot come up with viable solutions except those that HURT other players and THAT shows me that your answer is selfish.

I'm curious, if there is no problem with pricing, structure, and availability, then why are there so many voices out there debating it? I submit that there is a problem with our profession, and in fact the whole crafting profession, and that something needs to be changed or added to address these issues.

A SMALL group of people *CAN* operate as a viable economic community. I, as a solo crafter (when I was crafting) was a viable economic community. Most cities in the game that consider themselves shopping destinations are viable economic communities. Any small "Malls" you find scattered around the game are all viable economic communities. The issue is your definition of "viable". Your Guild will still be a viable economic community if changes are made to the game. You will adjust and carry on. Thats what dedicated people do.

I am not debating "pricing, structure, and availability". This thread changed from that point when you basically changed Dvnce's theme with your *fix* post. Dvnce tried to get people to understand the pointlessness of price fixing and you responded with basically, "well everything is crap so lets nerf harvestors so we can really control prices" (my summary I admit). You also advocated lowering BER as a means to control pricing, structure and availability. I disagree and will argue strongly against that. Asking me to make a solution in exchange for your self-appointed NERF is not a logical point of debate, it's asking me to accept your stance and I do not. Your timesink has a cascading effect and I believe you know what it is, you are just projecting that to the public as I am, in my opinion.

YOu also said... [SNIP]...people cannot handle the time sink NOW required to remain successful as a architect [/SNIP]. Define successful? If you define it as having hundreds of every kind of harvester, home, and factory on your vendors, I would take issue. I define successful in this *game* as having fun, and being able to support yourself and your friends. I define it as being able to provide a useful service or product to other players in your area. Your Guild alone seems capable of providing goods to the whole *server*. I wonder if the new Architect in a planet 3 hops away is having fun trying to establish a business in a profession where the satuaration point has been met, and everyone goes to buy Architect goods elsewhere because they know they can get everything they need there. Anyprobably even cheaper.

I have watched 48 people try to apprentice under me and 46 run away screaming at the amount of overhead it takes to replace a single income in missions with architectural crafting. This is not a snapshot, this is nine months of watching the same thing over and over again. Only 2 have been successful enough (in their own minds) to stay with the craft and one became a REALLY GOOD decorator and one is still a very viable architect. I BEG PEOPLE to become architects whenever they even mention it on Tempest. Saturation issues astound me when all I do is put harvs on the vendors and people (especially those that existed from beta) seem to buy them every week. What happens to them I dunno. But I have watched people continuously buy from me and about 6 major architects on the server STEADILY for over nine months. I live on Dantooine and have since late Sept 2003. People come to my vendors, they are on no other planet. My prices have not changed once. While I make and produce MANY Master Artisan items (but not icky vehicles) I have sold a minimum of 1 million credits per week for nine months in architectural goods.

Ugh. I just dont see any value in arguing that point. ou have a valid argument that you have the right to *be* the only provider of Architectural goods on the whole server. If you put the time and effort into it, you should have that. I just feel that we ought to be more concerned with the people around us. If what you are doing harms others needlessly, then why do it? Will you really be hurt if you shut down 20% of your operation?

You have a poor way of flaming. Instead of championing your position you continue the Thuderheart methodology of labelling my efforts to succeed in my goals as an evil. I and my guildmates should stop playing so well just to satisfy your play style? So when you personally piss me off about something should I get to stand up and just whip out the nerfbat on you and your friends? I say no. Your "concern" is to control my ability to operate within the rules provided. When I or ANY OTHER succeed with a pattern of play and you perceive you or others not doing so you try to nerf to garner support for a nerf to gain advantage. I doubt many people on Tempest have offered as much monetary (in game) help to others as I have to other players. You have little knowledge of who or what I am about other than the fact that I have been successful at business in the game and you publicly are asking for me to stop doing so, and pretty much advocating a nerf that you *THINK* would harm me if I don't. Funny thing is, you're wrong on the nerfbat and appear happy to hurt others in order to gain something that has no logical support whatsoever other than conjecture. Plain and simple.

You ask how it would attract people to a long-term profession? Easy. If there is a need for products (demand), and it is *worth* it to someone to invest in that profession (Supply), then they will. If people cannot make a living as a specific crafter, they wont do it (unless they are a glutton for pain).

I disagree; this is a game, and if you make the timesink so inane that people do not want to do it they won't. I ground Master Chef recently with Fivo because I tired of chefs' pricing. Even though I still buy from chefs I could not afford the staple products of chefs on the long run without going back to fighter missions for income or becoming a chef. I chose the later. Now I provide food for my group in exchange for their help in getting resources, especially meats.

This link is a PERFECT example of what I am talking about. Numen is a RESPECTED member of the Tempest community and someone I consider a friend.

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=architect&message.id=58200#M58200

I dont want new crafters to instantly become *successful*. I want to see them grow steadily, learning, and playing the game. I do not buy anything from mass retailers except in dire emergencies (like a great gas spawning I had to jump on). I often buy stuff and just destroy it if I know the crafter is a little new, or if they are having trouble getting cash.

Maybe I do advocate some *flavor* of a socialist environment in the game. It is a game, after all, and its only fair that everyone at least have a shot at working inside a profession. If this means the high-volume operators have to scale down their operations 30%, then I really dont see any harm. I run a alot of harvs, and this sort of change will affect me negatively as well. I'll suddenly be limited to only my own lots. I will probably have to start hiring people out. A hassle for me, but if its *worth* it to me, I will do it. It will certainly be worth it to those people I hire who currently are running missions to stay afloat.

Yet again this is the harv certs argument transposed. You see nothing wrong with nerfing people because you have no realistic loss to something you perceive ownership within. If socialism is accepted in this game as the norm then I don't want to play it. Just because you cannot achieve your goals without hurting others does not make your position correct, and in my opinion, makes it just plain wrong.

Finally (/pant), yes, nerfing *has* done good in the past. It has affected the "good of the game". Do you really think the mission-exploits they nerfed way back when should not have been fixed?

Exploits do not equate to nerfing the rules for YOUR advantage.

Nerfing bleeds to stop unfair XP grants?

Oh please. Go cry to TH on this. Most people call this a BS nerf and I agree.

Nerfing Warcry to stop people killing stuff they shouldn't?

So now Jedi whines justify nerfing? Well they still don't to me.

Upcoming nerf to HAM's to make the (stupid) /con system worthy and to stop people from solo'ing the hardest mobs in the game? The list goes on. But dont take my word for it, ask the Devs. Its obvious they think its a good thing to nerf stuff.

Well since the devs refuse to talk to anyone it's kinda hard to ask them squat, no?

They really do have the good of the game at heart. Its their job, after all. Yes, they screw stuff up, dont communicate with us, are clueless about a lot of things, and have thier priorities messed up, but they *do* want the game to be successful.....for everyone.... not just the "best" person or people to the exclusion of all else. If there are imbalances in the game, they should be fixed. This will mean I have to change my style of play.

Yeah, sure, only you will NEVER do anything to gain an advantage? Right? Utopian comments for a care bear universe.

Again, the issue seems to be player's expectations. They expect to continue doing everything they are currently doing, with no change. This is unreasonable, IMHO.

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Again, the only basis for this is feelings. You provide no facts. If you are going to hijack Dvnce's thread and then whine because someone debates your hijacking or has a different opinion than you then you are not dealing with reality, much less the game.

Fivo Asia

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LonelyGhost wrote:

I hear ya D. Its too bad we are in this mess, but IMHO, it will take an Act of God (read:SOE) to put things in order. I respect the right of others to play as they wish, but I have to wonder if their style of play isn't hurting the game overall. Its not just about how *I* can have fun and what *I* want to do. I might enjoy managing 175 harvs, I might *like* turning out 1000 uber BE tissue every day, or pistols, or whatever. But is that good for Joe Newbie who wants to play the game as a WS, AR, DE, whatever. Is that person going to be able to, in the space of a few months, be able to actually support him/herself in the crafting profession they like? Is it good for the Game?

I quit playing on Test because of this. I could not support myself as a DE there. I p[layed on Test for about 6 months full-time, no Live toons at all. I ran survey missions 2 or 3 hours a day to pay for stuff. It sucked. I left, and have been sucessful on Live. Now I'm having fun.

If new players are not able to compete because they cannot handle or afford 175 harvesters, or crank out loads of crafted goods, then how will they survive? By taking up a combat prof. And if thats not fun for them, they quit.

I humbly suggest we need to examine our priorities, and re-evaluate our expectations for the game. Will reducing the flow of resource into the game be an overall boon? I think so. Yes, it will mean some major changes. But changes are not, by default, bad. They can be good. And in from the viewpoint of the game as a whole, IMHO, it would be a good thing.

I will have fun regardelss if I make quite as much as I do now, or if I cant craft as many things as I do now, or if I can no longer participate in all the activities I can now. But, if the changes make the game les fun for me, and I cannot accept it, I will quit. Its just a game. All I know is I feel really sorry when I see a newbie sampling in Theed someplace, trying to get some skills. They have no idea what they will have to face.

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Do you not find it irronic that in the Test Server, where I assume they have virtually no cross lot trading you couldn't survive and on the live server, where they have it, you did fine!?!

Read your post again.

TC ----> No cross lots ----> could not be successful as a DE.
Live --> Lots of cross lots---> you were successful.

Yet you rail against people that are dedicated enough to develop a LOW COST market for resources in the insanity that is SOE inflation.

Your equation does not take into account:

• Quitting rates for crafters due to inability to deal with the time sinks.


• Quitting rates in general.


• The stated GOALS of this game is massive player interaction.


• Supply and demand.

AT LEAST YOU DO ADMIT your agenda, unlike most of the posters. You fully state you want to control resources, create inflation and basically make the game so much of a time sink that people will change or quit. Change for change sake is by default BAD. I've 22 years of experience in military and government and when the "Change Weenies" (as we lovingly called them) move in they usually only want the fast changes for career advancement or to gain some advantage. If this is NOT your agenda then please tell me why you advocate change without a single point of contention as to why the current admin usage for harvestors is bad. You call it bad, but never once state why it is bad. And I fundamentally disagree that it is bad for the game. There are ENORMOUS numbers of resources I could never get if it were not for the resource merchants on our server. ESPECIALLY organics.

My List:

• Lot traders increase resource competition and keep prices down.


• Their diversity catch a variety of resources I never could. They make it possible to make meds. foods, armor and weapons with a variety of resources one person is incapable of gleaning.


• They remove a timesink for all players, veteran and noob alike.


• They have fun (ugh) actually doing that, which I find astounding.

You also state that you want the game to be fair but you want noobs to (basically) get to the top of their craft fast and compete instantly with people that have almost a year invested in the game. Why not just advocate only allowing people to play crafters for 6 months out of the year. Same effect.

Totally disagree with Dvnce on this too. Calling something "bad for the game" without any context got us almost ZERO MCH's on Tempest. Try to get a freaking animal mounted these days.

Fivo Asia

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Cafa wrote:

...Do you not find it irronic that in the Test Server, where I assume they have virtually no cross lot trading you couldn't survive and on the live server, where they have it, you did fine!?!

Read your post again.

TC ----> No cross lots ----> could not be successful as a DE.
Live --> Lots of cross lots---> you were successful.

....

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If you're meaning to say that TC is hard because of a lack of cross lot trades then you have failed to show any causality.

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Cafa wrote:

Do you not find it irronic that in the Test Server, where I assume they have virtually no cross lot trading you couldn't survive and on the live server, where they have it, you did fine!?!

Read your post again.

TC ----> No cross lots ----> could not be successful as a DE.
Live --> Lots of cross lots---> you were successful.

The difference between TC and Live...

3 toons on TC.. so many do it all themselves..

Very Low population on TC that is hard to compete with all that do it themselves..

Yet you rail against people that are dedicated enough to develop a LOW COST market for resources in the insanity that is SOE inflation.

My List:

• Lot traders increase resource competition and keep prices down.


• Their diversity catch a variety of resources I never could. They make it possible to make meds. foods, armor and weapons with a variety of resources one person is incapable of gleaning.


• They remove a timesink for all players, veteran and noob alike.


• They have fun (ugh) actually doing that, which I find astounding.

LOW prices arent the Best thing for a game.. Making things too easy to obtain takes to purpose out of achieving certain levels .. I mean.. Put the best and the best in the hands of every noob what left do you have .. killing mobs.. and who can spam specials fast enough in pvp.. How long is that game fun?

You also state that you want the game to be fair but you want noobs to (basically) get to the top of their craft fast and compete instantly with people that have almost a year invested in the game. Why not just advocate only allowing people to play crafters for 6 months out of the year. Same effect.

Totally disagree with Dvnce on this too. Calling something "bad for the game" without any context got us almost ZERO MCH's on Tempest. Try to get a freaking animal mounted these days.

You are totally allowed to disagree with me Cafa.. I dont take it personal.. Your still Alright in my book.. But.. really read what I am saying.. and think about it.. I am giving a heck of alot of context. There are way too many resources in the game.. the Best of the Best is Way to easy to obtain.. You take the challenge out of the game you destroy the game.. Because each new mob that is introduced into the game is really the same encounter with a different skin.. we need to work at putting the challenge back into the game.. putting actual goals that someone can work towards..

You have been succesful in setting your system up.. I have confidence that you can manage the new system too.. so what if you have to raise your prices 0.1. to cover the new cost.. does that really hurt the server?

Fivo Asia

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Dvnce wrote:

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Cafa wrote:

Do you not find it irronic that in the Test Server, where I assume they have virtually no cross lot trading you couldn't survive and on the live server, where they have it, you did fine!?!

Read your post again.

TC ----> No cross lots ----> could not be successful as a DE.
Live --> Lots of cross lots---> you were successful.

The difference between TC and Live...

3 toons on TC.. so many do it all themselves..

Very Low population on TC that is hard to compete with all that do it themselves..

This was actually my point. He used TC as his context when we all know why he was unsuccessful on TC -- because no one is on the server for the most part in viable numbers large enough to maintain a economic model for the professions. I might also add that when TH was vaulting playing an architect and went on TC making the magic resources machine spit out stuff to him I really took that as a slap in the face too. Another reason crafters need a CRAFTER CORRESPONDENT on TH's level working for us. He sure isn't.

Yet you rail against people that are dedicated enough to develop a LOW COST market for resources in the insanity that is SOE inflation.

My List:

• Lot traders increase resource competition and keep prices down.


• Their diversity catch a variety of resources I never could. They make it possible to make meds. foods, armor and weapons with a variety of resources one person is incapable of gleaning.


• They remove a timesink for all players, veteran and noob alike.


• They have fun (ugh) actually doing that, which I find astounding.

LOW prices arent the Best thing for a game.. Making things too easy to obtain takes to purpose out of achieving certain levels .. I mean.. Put the best and the best in the hands of every noob what left do you have .. killing mobs.. and who can spam specials fast enough in pvp.. How long is that game fun?

Somehow all I see in the statement is that you want to change things from a playability standpoint to make the game last longer. If making more time sinks is all this game has to compete with it's lost D.

You also state that you want the game to be fair but you want noobs to (basically) get to the top of their craft fast and compete instantly with people that have almost a year invested in the game. Why not just advocate only allowing people to play crafters for 6 months out of the year. Same effect.

Totally disagree with Dvnce on this too. Calling something "bad for the game" without any context got us almost ZERO MCH's on Tempest. Try to get a freaking animal mounted these days.

You are totally allowed to disagree with me Cafa.. I dont take it personal.. Your still Alright in my book.. But.. really read what I am saying.. and think about it.. I am giving a heck of alot of context. There are way too many resources in the game.. the Best of the Best is Way to easy to obtain.. You take the challenge out of the game you destroy the game.. Because each new mob that is introduced into the game is really the same encounter with a different skin.. we need to work at putting the challenge back into the game.. putting actual goals that someone can work towards..

You have been succesful in setting your system up.. I have confidence that you can manage the new system too.. so what if you have to raise your prices 0.1. to cover the new cost.. does that really hurt the server?

Fivo Asia

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And you will always be alright in mine mate.

What I do personally is far outside this conversation. Instead of making resources more diverse, developing new structures, new art, letting us craft existing structures, giving us adequate (or even any) feedback, developing architect specific rulesets, molding models, paint, colorization of furniture, all-terrain harvestors, etc....... a good majority of MY community is yelling NERF to save this game.

I freaking LOVE being an architect. Every single time I pull off a run of heavies is the same joy as the first time. When I watch someone lay down an entire city with my structures as I take pictures it reminds me of the utter uniqueness of our profession.

All I see is the rest of the community so worn down but the utter lack of attention as we are ignored time after time after time again, and now the only things that floats any merit whatsoever is the flying nerfbat. Have the bureaucrats/SOE management really reduced us all to nerfing as the only way to improve this game? I don't like that if it is true.

Fivo Asia