Architect Archive
Thread: Vendor Item .. Working for and Acceptable Balance....
thydbault
Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:42 am
#27
Dat base problems? Tough, Get more storage.I for one am sick of SOE trying to solve their problems by stepping on the customers who pay forplaying the game.
The acceptable ballance is to add more storage to the servers and not squash the people who have invested multitudes of hours building a bussiness.
Lets not forget the bizzar terminals have a limit on the number of items one can list as well as the price, and that is what causes people to craete multiple vendors. This is also what causes the spam in major cities. IF you open up the bizzar terminals many who dabble in crafting would be satisfied by selling on the bizzar. They would not need to spam lengthy lists of items and the way points. Prices would be determined by supply and demand. There are few who would list a metal chair for 3000 if the list just below it is full of identical items for 1000.
thydbault
Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:08 am
#28
Eliminate Merchant? Sounds good. From day one anyone can sell an item. Player to Player or on the bizzar terminal. I have manufactured a great many items and have never been able to sell a factory crate of anything to a merchant. I'm not even sure if i've ever seen one. A hunter Gathers hide and sells it to buy armor with. The furniture maker buys the hide creates goudy couches and sells them. I don't see a merchant in the loop anywhere.
Yes i know i had to get bussines 2 or 3 (i don't recallwhich one
in order to get a vendor. The only reason i got a vendor in the first place was i am continously at the 25 item timit on the bizzar. I built my first batch of swoops and put them on my vendor at 18000 each. I could not have continued to make them if i were forced to sell them on the bizzar terminals at 6000 each. It cost more than that to gather the resources. I addvertised on the auction channel and sold a few. I now sell player to player in the starports. as well as from my vendor, and resources on the bizzar terminal. Strangly enough i must split up the large quantities of resources so i can get a reasonable price for them so instead of haveing i container of 20k units listed i have 6 container of 3000 units and one container of 2000 units. The laughable thing is, when i get emails saying someone has purchased an item from the bizzar terminal there will most allways be 4 or 5 in a row where one person has bought all the containers thet held the same resource.
in order to get a vendor. The only reason i got a vendor in the first place was i am continously at the 25 item timit on the bizzar. I built my first batch of swoops and put them on my vendor at 18000 each. I could not have continued to make them if i were forced to sell them on the bizzar terminals at 6000 each. It cost more than that to gather the resources. I addvertised on the auction channel and sold a few. I now sell player to player in the starports. as well as from my vendor, and resources on the bizzar terminal. Strangly enough i must split up the large quantities of resources so i can get a reasonable price for them so instead of haveing i container of 20k units listed i have 6 container of 3000 units and one container of 2000 units. The laughable thing is, when i get emails saying someone has purchased an item from the bizzar terminal there will most allways be 4 or 5 in a row where one person has bought all the containers thet held the same resource. To summerize i gather it combine it into one large container to transport it, split it into multiple containers to sell it. (because of the limits on the bizzar) someone buys it and combines it into a large container.
Crimsonsplat
Mon Aug 09, 2004 7:59 am
#29
"An acceptable balance" is that they eliminate the Merchant profession.
Oh, whoops. They just did.....
Brantoc-Pax
Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:02 am
#30
I'm going to be the voice of reason, and perhapts make an enemy or two.
Currently harvester prices are low, because it is too easy to make them in mass. As a harvester producing architect I have suggestions that may make people mad, but would help stablize and maybe raise prices. (seperate wheat from chaff)
1) keep OMU's uncrated, or maybe 5packable.
2) reduce crate size of Turbo Fluidic's, and heavy harvesting unitsto 5 packs.
3) Raise crate levels of Wall Modiles to 100, and SSSM/SSM's to 50/25pack
4) FIX FACTORY BUGS! Erroring out has caused a lot of issues.
5) Keep input hopper at current size but raise output hopper to 200.
6) Raise schematic limit of ONLY CERTAIN SUBCOMPONETS to 3000 (only stucture modules, SSSM's, for us, and WS/AS/Tailor/BE/Medic sub componets. Not everything)
7) Make BER 14's 98% not 99% (meaning it would be possable for elite crafters, not just impossable for everyone)
8) add a drop item attachment for harvester crafting allowing +1-4 BER, or +10-25k hopperto harvesters (limit to one per harvester, and harder mobs)
9) add a harvester decay to existing farms. (this would revitalize the harvester market, and resource market) Say 1 BER per two weeks loss for being on (not just placed)
10) add chemical to OMU's and take one Metal location off, and add inert gas to harvesting mech, and turbo fluid's.
11)make Heavy Moist's use wall modules, and medium minerals use wall modules. All of this to balance things out between harvester types.
12) Drop one generator turbine from fusions and add a BER 6 Turbo Fluidic for the 'Cooling system' or something. Make this where if you use BER 7 Fluidic/OMU you get a BER 16 Fusion.
13) a drop item/schem for a special all planet medium and large house
Lecivius
Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:56 am
#31
Pawlin wrote:
If they must limit vendors then give us a reasonable number like 500 items per vendor or something.
And if they insist on calm, constructive conversations then they should not start the discussion with a kick to our groin.
I have to agree with this thought. There is a HUGE outcry right now, without any mention by the folks in red. I make LOTS of things. I have an alt that is almost master (just not enough points) Merchant, and there is simply no way an Architect, or a Tailor, or a Weaponsmith can live under the proposed system. To suggest a 110 limit for Master Merchant is analogous to Ford selling the new 2005 Excursion witha 1 gallon fuel tank...ludicrous, and showing a complete lack of product knowledge.
<edit...it would help if I knew how to type>
Message Edited by Lecivius on 08-09-2004 11:20 AM
SmarticusIOaG
Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:09 pm
#32
I want to start by telling you about my business.
I run Crafticus Architecture on Bloodfin (Corellia 475 -5555, 1000m South of Coronet)
I have had up to 800 deeds in my 5 vendors total. I have Merchant 4404.
The #1 reason people tell me for coming to my vendors over and over again is very simple. I have stock on EVERYTHING they need.
My Harvester vendor has had up to 400 deeds on it. Please note that I DONT carry personals, that's ALL medium and heavy harvesters.
My business model is very simple - Volume, not markup. I sell at 4-6 CPU on average. It's the way i've chosen to run my business.
This new vendor nerf takes my business plan, scrunches it up, and throws it out the window
100 per vendor at 4404 merchant? Not a chance. I'd virtually have to live in front of my computer to keep the stock properly. I sell VOLUME.
My vendors regularly crank out over 20 transactions per day. I had one day where i sold the makings for a small city out of my vendor stock. Thats the way it was designed to happen from my perspective.
500 items per would be more than adequate. 250 would require some restructuring but i could pull it off. But 100? No way.
I like the idea, however, of being able to post up factory made items (i.e. the 15 Heavy Minerals I have in stock with the same serial #) as a single entry
- customer clicks on the single entry, choses one or two or 10, however many they want, and BOOM it's all taken care of. That's the way it should have been from the beginning in my opinion.
Also, why are architect deeds one of the few that dont crate? Vehicles crate, and in some cases they require more resource than many of the uncrateable items we work with. If i could crate say even 5 deeds together i could reduce both my vendor item count and my storage housing. Wouldnt that help their precious database?(I could rant about the OMU's not crating, but that's another story altogether.)
Now i'm willing to admit that if the Dev's are looking to knock off us "Millionaire Crafters" then here I am. Did i mention that i've been an architect for over 10 months on Bloodfin? Aren't I due for just a few million for providing structures and investing large amounts of time in my business? Or does the fact that i've paid for 1 account since the second week the game was out and another since about month 2 mean anything?
I'm getting really tired of having SOE taking a dump on this game cause of problems on THEIR end of things. Harvester animation died this way - it took resources on their end, so it went away. Never mind that it had a use - visually checking to see if yourharvesters were on without having to query their precious database on each of them.
Too much data in the database? Try purging all the deleted/idle/empty/useless junk out of here first. THEN come to us with a vendor cap if it's absolutely neccessary. Don't take your lack of planning out on the people that are, after all, paying your salaries.
I'm not going to quit or any other sudden action. I'm not about to throw the baby out with the bathwater like SOE seems to love to do. I'd imagine I'll find a way to work around it just like i've had to work around various stupid nerfs and "additions to the game" before this. But this cap of 100 items needs to die. Quickly. Bury the corpse facedown 12 feet underground. Plant grass over it and leave it unmarked so that no one digs it up by accident.
Because thats' exactly what it will do to my business.
Crafticus Optimaas - Master Architect since2003, Master Artisan, Proud 4404 Merchant.
Smarticus Iassi - Master TKA, Master Medic, 4440 Doctor sinceAug 2003
Bloodfin Rocks, just thought y'all should know.
thydbault
Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:23 am
#33
I think many on this thread are missing the point. Any limit on the number of items in a vendor is a useless attempt to change one problem into another. Simple math 1 vendor with 1000 items = 4 vendors with 250 items each. How many of you with 1000 items in a single vendor will destroy 750 items to get under the limit?
Crimsonsplat
Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:49 am
#34
thydbault wrote:
I think many on this thread are missing the point. Any limit on the number of items in a vendor is a useless attempt to change one problem into another. Simple math 1 vendor with 1000 items = 4 vendors with 250 items each. How many of you with 1000 items in a single vendor will destroy 750 items to get under the limit?
Actually, the math question is 6 vendors averaging 200 items each adds up to how many items destroyed on a 4444 merchant?
And I'm a relative small-timer as Architects go.
While I still strongly feel the Merchant profession is a waste and a point sink for crafters, we can live (or at least clone a few times a week) with having to keep merchant in order to maintain our vendors. It will be boring as all get out, since we can't expect to survive things like the Corvette, but there's always alts on other servers. Guess it sucks to be my buyers, if I'm on another server having fun. But the limits are totally impossible. I'll not camp my vendors every hour on the hour to restock.
Actually, I won't be on that other server either. I cancelled my account.
RotorofCorRng
Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:28 am
#35
Smarticus Wrote:
I'm getting really tired of having SOE taking a dump on this game cause of problems on THEIR end of things. Harvester animation died this way - it took resources on their end, so it went away. Never mind that it had a use - visually checking to see if yourharvesters were on without having to query their precious database on each of them.
Too much data in the database? Try purging all the deleted/idle/empty/useless junk out of here first. THEN come to us with a vendor cap if it's absolutely neccessary.
OUTSTANDING!
5***** for you.
Crimsonsplat
Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:26 am
#36
For those of you who missed it, TH showed up a few times, starting last night around 5pm Pacific.
He's already begun the "oh I think we can get the limits raised" part of the game.
Here's my prediction: He'll come back with 3x the currently proposed limit. About 20% of the people will respond "oh that's great, thank you!" and another 30% will say "fine, if that's all we can get." TH will proclaim a victoryparty with the Devs and and go home.
The week after Pub 10 goes live, the other 50% quit the game.
Rurry
Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:58 am
#37
Terrible idea.
Scrap the merchant class and spread out vendors and benefits in other crafting classes - including Doctors and Smugglers for example.
Do not restrict the economy! Free market! Free us!
Crimsonsplat
Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:19 am
#38
Rurry wrote:
Terrible idea.
Scrap the merchant class and spread out vendors and benefits in other crafting classes - including Doctors and Smugglers for example.
Do not restrict the economy! Free market! Free us!
Have you kicked a Jedi today?
Master Architect at large
Master Creature Handler
Novice Rifleman
EX- Master artisan, Tailor, Merchant, Carbineer.
/swoons
Marry me!
Oh wait, you're on the wrong server. 
CPark
Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:09 pm
#39
Sorry this is so long – but the item limits have a ripple effect that causes problems as well as solves them. The extra stress that will put on other game systems will degrade the player experience. It we don’t lay out the damage along with the good we can’t make telling argument for a comprehensive solution.
What are the objectives?
1) More interaction between crafters and merchants
2) More opportunity for low-level crafters
3) Decrease problems with empty/abandoned/illegal vendors
4) Decrease load on game databases
What solution is planned?
1) Remove empty vendors for the planet map
2) Delete vendors when players drop required skills
3) Limit the number of items on vendors
Problems made worse / created by the solutions
1) Existing storage problems (houses, factories, etc.) will become worse
2) Existing stocking problems (moving items to vendors, lack of ways to find vendors, no consignment system, etc.) will become worse
3) Existing play styles will have to change (more specialization, smaller businesses, inability to provide variety and stock as a selling point)
4) Shopping for goods will become more difficult (Fewer shops with fewer goods but no way to help people find what they need except to go and look)
Problems resolved by the solutions
1) Number of empty / abandoned / illegal vendors will go down
2) Load on database will decrease
3) Low level crafters will have somewhat greater opportunities because of scarcity of higher level goods
Changes that could help achieve the goals
1) Increase the limits per vendor for various levels of merchant – have the skill trees add not only number of vendors but amount per vendor as skill increases. Start with 150 items per vendor and cap at 500 items per vendor for master merchant. This allows merchants to handle multiple suppliers and a range of product selections.
2) Provide a consignment system on vendors – crafters can “offer” goods to a merchant at any merchant vendor location and merchants can then accept the offer or reject it – but payment is not made to the crafter until the sale is made. Crafter’s offer price is what they get paid. Merchant can set the sale price. Rejected offers must be picked up in 10 days. Offers are automatically rejected if the merchant doesn’t get to them in 10 days. Once an item is accepted the merchant can offer it at any location without transporting it if they have some skill level, otherwise they have to go get it and move it. This allows sellers a game-supported mechanism for selling through merchants and merchants a way to distribute goods to multiple locations.
3) Players can view merchant’s prices at all vendors from any vendor. On the planetary map, item counts by category can be seen but not details and prices. This makes it easier for players to find merchants to check out without creating a galaxy-wide exchange that would drive out small crafters.
4) Crates are in categories based on contents with counts showing. This allows players to see crated items by category making shopping for crates easier
5) Players can buy individual items from crates. This allows increased volumes in vendors without using more storage in the underlying system.
6) All items stack to 100 items. This allows increased volumes in vendors without using more storage in the underlying system.
7) Give master crafters one vendor with a 500-item limit while allowing B III artisans one 100-item vendor. This allows stand-alone masters and small artisans a way to sell goods at a single location.
8) Master crafters can consolidate like items in crates. This reduces storage requirements and allows for consolidation of products from several vendors.
9) Allow for multiple-selection in the vendor interface for things like “sell-item” so re-stocking becomes easier – specifically, putting items that have timed out back up at their original price and with the original attached note.
What are the objectives?
1) More interaction between crafters and merchants
2) More opportunity for low-level crafters
3) Decrease problems with empty/abandoned/illegal vendors
4) Decrease load on game databases
What solution is planned?
1) Remove empty vendors for the planet map
2) Delete vendors when players drop required skills
3) Limit the number of items on vendors
Problems made worse / created by the solutions
1) Existing storage problems (houses, factories, etc.) will become worse
2) Existing stocking problems (moving items to vendors, lack of ways to find vendors, no consignment system, etc.) will become worse
3) Existing play styles will have to change (more specialization, smaller businesses, inability to provide variety and stock as a selling point)
4) Shopping for goods will become more difficult (Fewer shops with fewer goods but no way to help people find what they need except to go and look)
Problems resolved by the solutions
1) Number of empty / abandoned / illegal vendors will go down
2) Load on database will decrease
3) Low level crafters will have somewhat greater opportunities because of scarcity of higher level goods
Changes that could help achieve the goals
1) Increase the limits per vendor for various levels of merchant – have the skill trees add not only number of vendors but amount per vendor as skill increases. Start with 150 items per vendor and cap at 500 items per vendor for master merchant. This allows merchants to handle multiple suppliers and a range of product selections.
2) Provide a consignment system on vendors – crafters can “offer” goods to a merchant at any merchant vendor location and merchants can then accept the offer or reject it – but payment is not made to the crafter until the sale is made. Crafter’s offer price is what they get paid. Merchant can set the sale price. Rejected offers must be picked up in 10 days. Offers are automatically rejected if the merchant doesn’t get to them in 10 days. Once an item is accepted the merchant can offer it at any location without transporting it if they have some skill level, otherwise they have to go get it and move it. This allows sellers a game-supported mechanism for selling through merchants and merchants a way to distribute goods to multiple locations.
3) Players can view merchant’s prices at all vendors from any vendor. On the planetary map, item counts by category can be seen but not details and prices. This makes it easier for players to find merchants to check out without creating a galaxy-wide exchange that would drive out small crafters.
4) Crates are in categories based on contents with counts showing. This allows players to see crated items by category making shopping for crates easier
5) Players can buy individual items from crates. This allows increased volumes in vendors without using more storage in the underlying system.
6) All items stack to 100 items. This allows increased volumes in vendors without using more storage in the underlying system.
7) Give master crafters one vendor with a 500-item limit while allowing B III artisans one 100-item vendor. This allows stand-alone masters and small artisans a way to sell goods at a single location.
8) Master crafters can consolidate like items in crates. This reduces storage requirements and allows for consolidation of products from several vendors.
9) Allow for multiple-selection in the vendor interface for things like “sell-item” so re-stocking becomes easier – specifically, putting items that have timed out back up at their original price and with the original attached note.