Architect Archive
Thread: Shall I make an Official Response? to the Artisans?
KRONOS1974 wrote:
Jibesh wrote:
These are the kinds of things that ruins professions. Having harvestor certification and harvestor decay will have negative impacts on all crafting professions and will cause the game economy into a depression. Many different professions rely on architects and miners to get them the materials they need to support their professions. Pretty soon there will be people grinding architect just for the harvestor certs.similar to thehologrinders.
I do not see the problem with using other peoples lots to mine resources. But I do agree that having 200+ lots is a bad thing in the long run because it will creates monopolies. If some tragedy happens to befall the mining company, all the people who rely on them willalso be affected. One way to stop the excessive mining is to maybe charge noncrafters extra maintainence / power costs.
But implementing these certs/decays just because the artisan profession feels inferior is just plain dumb. Also this will force many players such as crafters/minersto leave the game.
stopping rant...
Like having non-crafter charging us crafters 10-100cpu isnt a negative impact already? And then having non-crafters with 20-50-100 lots flooding our servers with crap resources and top grade resources and still charging us out the a$$. That is the problem i am seeing.
When an all combat template character can harvest resources and use this as a way to make money by charging us outragous prices is a negative impact on the economy and an insult to us architects and crafters.
The only reason they are charging 10 - 100cpu is because idiotic people are willing to pay that much. All the crafters/miners i know have a simple rule. "Stupid people have a tons of money; it is our job to get it out of their hands." Mining contracts on Eclipse usually go for 3 to 5cpu, its the people reselling the resource that adds the extra cpu. One way suggested in an above post is to not buy the resource that you believe are insanely overpriced.
Also if we take away the miners, the price of resources would soar since there is tremendous lack of people to mine resources. Only the rich 5 to 10% would be able to afford to buy the resources causing more people to leave the crafting profession and maybe leaving the game. Most crafters either have 20+ lots to mine their resources or they contract them to miners to get the resources (correct me if i am wrong).
If you dont want to pay 10 to 100cpu resource, why not mine it yourself? It takes a lot of time, money, and effort to keep up 10+ harvs. That maybe why prices are also high.
KRONOS1974 wrote:
Jibesh wrote:
These are the kinds of things that ruins professions. Having harvestor certification and harvestor decay will have negative impacts on all crafting professions and will cause the game economy into a depression. Many different professions rely on architects and miners to get them the materials they need to support their professions. Pretty soon there will be people grinding architect just for the harvestor certs.similar to thehologrinders.
I do not see the problem with using other peoples lots to mine resources. But I do agree that having 200+ lots is a bad thing in the long run because it will creates monopolies. If some tragedy happens to befall the mining company, all the people who rely on them willalso be affected. One way to stop the excessive mining is to maybe charge noncrafters extra maintainence / power costs.
But implementing these certs/decays just because the artisan profession feels inferior is just plain dumb. Also this will force many players such as crafters/minersto leave the game.
stopping rant...
Like having non-crafter charging us crafters 10-100cpu isnt a negative impact already? And then having non-crafters with 20-50-100 lots flooding our servers with crap resources and top grade resources and still charging us out the a$$. That is the problem i am seeing.
When an all combat template character can harvest resources and use this as a way to make money by charging us outragous prices is a negative impact on the economy and an insult to us architects and crafters.
The only reason they are charging 10 - 100cpu is because idiotic people are willing to pay that much. All the crafters/miners i know have a simple rule. "Stupid people have a tons of money; it is our job to get it out of their hands." Mining contracts on Eclipse usually go for 3 to 5cpu, its the people reselling the resource that adds the extra cpu. One way suggested in an above post is to not buy the resource that you believe are insanely overpriced.
Also if we take away the miners, the price of resources would soar since there is tremendous lack of people to mine resources. Only the rich 5 to 10% would be able to afford to buy the resources causing more people to leave the crafting profession and maybe leaving the game. Most crafters either have 20+ lots to mine their resources or they contract them to miners to get the resources (correct me if i am wrong).
If you dont want to pay 10 to 100cpu resource, why not mine it yourself? It takes a lot of time, money, and effort to keep up 10+ harvs. That maybe why prices are also high.
Dvnce..
I just went over to the Artisan forums to read up on this. Here's my take on this.
1st off.. the main concern is it seems that there are tons of harvesters bringing in Millions/Billions of harvested resources. This is a big problem that is causing the cry from the Dev's about to many items on the Database.
We've covered this issue: We need the stacks to increase to 1 million units, thus it would effectively decrease 90% of the database storage related to mined materials. This would not have any bearing on the number of harvesters out there, but it would make a major decrease in the number of items in the database. This is my personal favorite counter to this. They want to make an issue of this, before they implement certs for harvesters, they should give the increase in stack size a chance.
2nd: Certifications for crafting classes only.
Actually this is a Mute argument.. in all honesty, every proffesion, with the exception of a few, need to be able to craft. Scouts need to craft camps and traps. Artisans, Medics, Entertainers even, need to craft. How do you justify the needs of a certain proffesion over another? You can not actually do that. We are each important in our own little way. So, adding a certification to using a harvester would be more degrading to the over all well being of the servers out there than a positive. Just in the fact that an Architect is more important than say a Medic/Doctor. All I do is build the stuff that you are using to harvest, they keep us healed, buff us for combat, cure diseases, heal wounds etc. etc. but yet, because ours is a primary crafting proffesion, according to what the Artisans are asking for anyway, they wouldn't get the same Large Harvester certs that I do. Maybe a High Cap Flora, but not a Heavy Mineral or Deep Crust Chem, and they need those too.. They can not justify who should get these certs, which is the biggest flaw in what they are asking for.
3rd: Why are the Artisans asking for this anyway?
Granted Artisans can make personal harvesters, but we make the Mediums and Large harvesters, not them. Where do they get off asking for certifications on something they can not even build? Is the next step to allow them to have the ability to make Mediums? 90% of the crafting classes, with the exception of the medical field mind you, are Artisan related in one form or another. Just because they are the basis for this, why do they need to be invoking themselves on someone else's terrain? These harvesters are of NO concern to them. If it is NOT bothering the people that make them, then why is it bothering them? That's my biggest question, and one I think needs to be answered.
4th: Global Economy will suffer
As it stands right now.. Most Architects, not all, get their resources through various means. There are resourcers out there that make their main living selling resources to the crafters. Take this away from them, or force them into a position they do not want, and the economy over all will suffer. If you can not keep up with demand, due to a lack of resources, prices will go up. This is NOT the way the economy of the game needs to turn. It's already hard enough for a starting crafter of any type to get ahead in this game, cause every server has their awesome crafters already well established. Then you make it harder on them to afford the materials to make their items and in turn make it harder for them to afford the means to retrieve said items and you put the economy into shambles.
Over all, I think we should be positioning ourselves in case this does go forward. I don't think a sit back and wait approach will be good. We need to be ready. Somebody made a comment about what the Devs think and do and the fact that something like this would look good to them. I'm inclined to agree. I think if they see this suggestion by the Artisans, it will take a very abrubt and nasty turn. I'm afraid that this would be something that the Dev's would like to try to implement. Especially considering that it would be more likely called a nerf, we would be the proffesion hardest hit by it, and that makes me think it would be even more likely to happen, considering the fact that they honestly don't want to give the Architect proffesion very much love.. Think OMU's here folks.. it's been that way for how long? And how long have we complained about them? Where is our love over something as simple as a few more lines of code to make OMU's crate, something that could have been done back with the great Lamp and Candle adds to our proffesion. LOL.
Better to be prepared and not be needed, than to be under-prepared and be called to the floor on this.
Huntercrom- How many times do we have to dismiss that making things stack higher will nothelp the server storage issue. If all items stacked to 50 mil, it would clear tons of inv, which everyone would immediatly fill with other stuff. Stacking higher is a temp fix at best to storage issue, the only reason it is still an issue, is it would make life WAY easier for those of us who craft or have multiple crafting proffesions.
Dvnce wrote:
Guys.. calm down a bit.. the ranged sarcasm is not necessary ... Negativity is not the solution to the problem.. and I have seen a ton of negativaty about this issue especially in the artisan forum ... ( yes i have been following the debate )
Bottom line ..someof the key problemsare legit.. and should be addressed..
doing away with Massive Harvester Fields.. (most from cross server trades) ( Never intended)
So do the same thing they are doing about houses, if the placing char is deleted, the lots go poof, if the char doesn't log in for 16 days(or whatever it is) the stuff poofs
lowering the amount of resources in the game .. ( never intended to have millions upon millions of resources gathered upon each spawn....) maybe
the fact that the only Mining Related skill in the game ( surveying) gives no real bonus over a non artisan...
except the sole ability to find the spawns, and the ability to sample at lower %'s to determine quality
Am I saying that I am for Harvester Certs? Nope... Although You have to seriously admit there are some professions that it really doesnt fit to have working a oil rig... (doctors.. dancers.. musicians..) just think of it as mining right, if there is oil at my house in RL, I can get someone to come place a derrick there to gather it and make a profit off it. If I have a small area in SWG that is mine (claimed by placing a harv, made by someone of the appropriate skill level) it's the same basic concept.
If you think of lots as property rights, the way it is makes sense.
Should there be a perk for the Master Artisan that dedicates their skill points for survey skills? ( now the only skills ingame related to mining) yeah .. they probably should.. maybe without the certs there should be a penalty for non artisans to use a heavy miner.. say their BER 13 miner will only pull at max BER 11.5 or something like that...( this would not be a bad compromise if you realistically looked at it.. )
If the certs worked like weapon certs that might be interesting, but if they work like the other structures with skill requirements(Cantina, Hospital, Merchant Tent) they would be useless to those without the skill.
I'm not a rifleman, but i can pick up a T-21 and sort of use it.
Personally I aggree ripping harvesters from every ones hands now would be harsh.. (if this were week two ... I may reconsider)
Bottom line.. getting extreme doesnt help.. define the problem and work for a workable solution...
If the people proposing it had a definable problem, the argument wouldn't be so heated. The problem is they didn't think through the initial idea enough to present to the public (IMO)
Message Edited by Dvnce on 05-20-2004 03:49 PM
Stargzrrag wrote:
Huntercrom- How many times do we have to dismiss that making things stack higher will nothelp the server storage issue. If all items stacked to 50 mil, it would clear tons of inv, which everyone would immediatly fill with other stuff. Stacking higher is a temp fix at best to storage issue, the only reason it is still an issue, is it would make life WAY easier for those of us who craft or have multiple crafting proffesions.
Realistically, this idea would just make rare resources even harder to come by and turn a fun game into work.
I will agrue this till the end .... Increasing resource stacks WILL help with storage issues.... and I will use myself as an example....
I have 3 150 small houses.. 1 75 unit house .. 5 structure factories.. 1 225 med facilaty and 2 100 unit bank storage.. for 1975 units of storage.. I have about 1400-1500 of those units filled up.. mostly with 100k stacks of resources... if we could condense these resources.. (and factory crates) I can cut this down to 200 units of storage used.. ( I am completely serious.. this Is not Hypothetical I did the math.. ) So now I can remove 2 of the three 150 unit houses.. 2 of the factories.. and the 75 unit house along with the med building... (all of which are completely full..... yeah I may now use those lots for harvesters or something.. But2 harvester is better on the data base than a 150 unit house full of 150 items.. yeah .. my main house I may still max out with some peices of furniture... But still I have gotten rid of 6 structures.. that were full... How does that not help the data base?
Granted not everybody will be able to condense to that extreme... but they will be able to condense quite a bit.. and that will help...
now back to our discussion of the thread at hand 
I pointed out that its arogant to think that an Artrisan is the only crafting class.
Its also arrogant to say doctors are not on oil rigs...for your information there are doctors on one and work on oil rigs as well as Geologists.
So anywsie...using your analogy I find it odd a guy who makes shoes would be mining for oil, or for that matter a Chef.
But since this is a game then thats what happens.
So anywise...please try not to be so arrogant...the Artisans are not the only Crafters in the game.
This cert system unless Doctors and Bio-Engineers and things got certifications too, is completely worthless.
Like I said I still dont see any concrete information as to why a cert system is good.
The huge fields of extractors was used as an example...uh huh...so what...with one character per server and clans and cities...what the heck do you expect?
Did you think that a Master Droid Engineer with his clan hall is going to have units of land left for extractors while running his clan?
Do you really think a cert system will stop this...no
It will just encourage people to make more characters that are Artisans that will do the same thing. And worse it will mess up the servers even more with more information.
please...I beg someone to come up with a real argument, not just some guess work and lamed responces..as to why a cert system is needed.
Becasue with a Cert system in place...Artisans will only sell their extractors to other artisans.
So the question is why would a person who can make their own buy one from someone else?
The answer is they would not.
And dont bring up the test center since people on the test center have more then one character a cert system cannot be tested with a small group and a person using multiple characetrs on one server.
If I had my characters all on one server, I wouldnt care about the cert system either.
But I dont...so I do...becasue I craft, alot more then any Artisan as I get only 100 exp while they get 4 times that for anything they build.
And what I build is alot harder to make becasue unlike any Artisan I have to sometimes die to get a resource.
Thats right I require things so exotic they make extracted resources look like nothing.
Yet for some lame reason I am required to use extracted resources in combination becasue of the high requirements.
\
I pointed out that its arogant to think that an Artrisan is the only crafting class.
Its also arrogant to say doctors are not on oil rigs...for your information there are doctors on one and work on oil rigs as well as Geologists.
So anywsie...using your analogy I find it odd a guy who makes shoes would be mining for oil, or for that matter a Chef.
But since this is a game then thats what happens.
So anywise...please try not to be so arrogant...the Artisans are not the only Crafters in the game.
This cert system unless Doctors and Bio-Engineers and things got certifications too, is completely worthless.
Like I said I still dont see any concrete information as to why a cert system is good.
The huge fields of extractors was used as an example...uh huh...so what...with one character per server and clans and cities...what the heck do you expect?
Did you think that a Master Droid Engineer with his clan hall is going to have units of land left for extractors while running his clan?
Do you really think a cert system will stop this...no
It will just encourage people to make more characters that are Artisans that will do the same thing. And worse it will mess up the servers even more with more information.
please...I beg someone to come up with a real argument, not just some guess work and lamed responces..as to why a cert system is needed.
Becasue with a Cert system in place...Artisans will only sell their extractors to other artisans.
So the question is why would a person who can make their own buy one from someone else?
The answer is they would not.
And dont bring up the test center since people on the test center have more then one character a cert system cannot be tested with a small group and a person using multiple characetrs on one server.
If I had my characters all on one server, I wouldnt care about the cert system either.
But I dont...so I do...becasue I craft, alot more then any Artisan as I get only 100 exp while they get 4 times that for anything they build.
And what I build is alot harder to make becasue unlike any Artisan I have to sometimes die to get a resource.
Thats right I require things so exotic they make extracted resources look like nothing.
Yet for some lame reason I am required to use extracted resources in combination becasue of the high requirements.
Stargzrrag wrote:
Huntercrom- How many times do we have to dismiss that making things stack higher will nothelp the server storage issue. If all items stacked to 50 mil, it would clear tons of inv, which everyone would immediatly fill with other stuff. Stacking higher is a temp fix at best to storage issue, the only reason it is still an issue, is it would make life WAY easier for those of us who craft or have multiple crafting proffesions.
Realistically, this idea would just make rare resources even harder to come by and turn a fun game into work.
I don't understand your logic here. I have 2 different styles of Duralloy Steel on my Architect right now. 1.2 Million units of one type, 2.45 million units of another type.
I have them stored in seperate back packs, because of some of the stats being the way they are, I want to keep them seperated.
So.. I have 13 units of inventory taken up for one type, and 26 taken up for the second type. ( 1.2 million = 12 items plus the back pack =13. 2.45 million = 25 items plus pack = 26). So, that's 39 items of inventory that the database HAS to maintain at all times, until said resources is used up.
If the stack size was adjusted to 1 million unit stacks, then I would go to 3+4 for 7 total items, instead of 39. Over an 80% reduction just on 2 resource stacks alone. This doesn't count the other millions of units of garbage resources I have, plus all of the viable and needed resources I have. I harvest garbage steel and ore for structure modules, I also harvest great steel and ore for Harvesters, which need the outstanding stats behind them.
All told, I probably have close to half a billion units of resources. That's not an exageration, considering I have 4 fully stocked houses, 2 stocked vendors and other places with resources and other stuff hidden. All told, with each STACK, I'm probably taking up over 1k items of storage, maybe even higher than that.. could be closer to 2k with all the excessive places I store things at. If I could cut my stack sizes down 10 to 1, I'd be most pleased.. 90% reduction in how many items I have would be a god send, not only to me, but to the database itself. Instead of counting out 10 100k units, it would only have to count out 1 1 million unit stack. Much better, much easier.
It's simple math mate.. hope this illustrates a little clearer the need for increased stack size.
*Disgusted*
Well, in short, all this talk makes me ill... it's obvious that ALL crafters are getting the "shaft" here in SWG. SWG is more & more focusing on combat professions vs. crafting. I've seen this trend for some time. It's getting very old & tiresome. Oh well, other MMORPGs out there to play...
Plageron wrote:
Ranged sarcasm?
I pointed out that its arogant to think that an Artrisan is the only crafting class.
Its also arrogant to say doctors are not on oil rigs...for your information there are doctors on one and work on oil rigs as well as Geologists.
So anywsie...using your analogy I find it odd a guy who makes shoes would be mining for oil, or for that matter a Chef.
But since this is a game then thats what happens.
So anywise...please try not to be so arrogant...the Artisans are not the only Crafters in the game.
This cert system unless Doctors and Bio-Engineers and things got certifications too, is completely worthless.
Like I said I still dont see any concrete information as to why a cert system is good.
The huge fields of extractors was used as an example...uh huh...so what...with one character per server and clans and cities...what the heck do you expect?
Did you think that a Master Droid Engineer with his clan hall is going to have units of land left for extractors while running his clan?
Do you really think a cert system will stop this...no
It will just encourage people to make more characters that are Artisans that will do the same thing. And worse it will mess up the servers even more with more information.
please...I beg someone to come up with a real argument, not just some guess work and lamed responces..as to why a cert system is needed.
Becasue with a Cert system in place...Artisans will only sell their extractors to other artisans.
So the question is why would a person who can make their own buy one from someone else?
The answer is they would not.
And dont bring up the test center since people on the test center have more then one character a cert system cannot be tested with a small group and a person using multiple characetrs on one server.
If I had my characters all on one server, I wouldnt care about the cert system either.
But I dont...so I do...becasue I craft, alot more then any Artisan as I get only 100 exp while they get 4 times that for anything they build.
And what I build is alot harder to make becasue unlike any Artisan I have to sometimes die to get a resource.
Thats right I require things so exotic they make extracted resources look like nothing.
Yet for some lame reason I am required to use extracted resources in combination becasue of the high requirements.
\
Dude did you read my whole post...? our architect forum has been very clean from the heated and flametory threads.. and we should keep it that way ... dont read the first line of a post and assume that I am fighting against you... and look and notice we are not in the artisan forum here.. we are in the architect forum....
I am not fighting for certs.. BUT .. if the artisans get certz.. ( which it looks like it would be slim) it will effect architects.. so yeah we will have a stance on it at that point..
My whole point... INstead of fighting.. and trying to one up the other side in the wit department.. work towards defining the actual problem... then work towards the solution... the more heat in the threads the less likely this will ever happen...
Aphrael wrote:
*Disgusted*
Well, in short, all this talk makes me ill... it's obvious that ALL crafters are getting the "shaft" here in SWG. SWG is more & more focusing on combat professions vs. crafting. I've seen this trend for some time. It's getting very old & tiresome. Oh well, other MMORPGs out there to play...
i agree with you...they are willing to revamp jedi, combat and GCW but they are unwilling to do some much needed revamps in the crafting sector.
They tried to make a "renewable" source of income by givingus candles and lamps???? I seriously want to know what they were thinking when they did this. Why not give us more schematics for houses harvs furniture and other structures as a way to get us renewable income?
Jibesh wrote:
Aphrael wrote:
*Disgusted*
Well, in short, all this talk makes me ill... it's obvious that ALL crafters are getting the "shaft" here in SWG. SWG is more & more focusing on combat professions vs. crafting. I've seen this trend for some time. It's getting very old & tiresome. Oh well, other MMORPGs out there to play...
i agree with you...they are willing to revamp jedi, combat and GCW but they are unwilling to do some much needed revamps in the crafting sector.
They tried to make a "renewable" source of income by givingus candles and lamps???? I seriously want to know what they were thinking when they did this. Why not give us more schematics for houses harvs furniture and other structures as a way to get us renewable income?
We are not on the 'High Priority' list my friend. We never have been, we never will be. It's not in the stars or in the cards. It wasn't meant to be. (ok, I'm running out of negative things to say here )
We'll get our time to bask in the sun here folks, it just takes time. In all honesty, do you think our proffesion is that buggy that we need to have a complete revamp? or are we more in need of a reason for our exsistance? I think it's the latter here. We need a reason. Granted, we don't have the 'renewable' income that other crafters do, and the fact that we really can't sell items above the 3-5 cpu line, dependant on the amount of resources available and their cost to us, the crafter.
The whole idea here is not about US, the Architects, but the Artisans and what they want. They are encroaching, in my honest opinion here, on our turf. They want Harvester Certifications. That's fine.. give it to them.. Only a Master Architect then can use Mediums and Heavies.. we're the only ones that can build the damn things, we should be the only ones that can use them. Whoops.. I didn't really mean that, and I think everyone knows that.. but we could have always taken that standpoint and we didn't.. well, I started too.. but hey..
Honestly.. I doubt that it will get off the ground or actually go any further than it already has. To many of the other proffesions would suffer from this. Tailors, DE's, WS, AS, the whole lot.. They'll suffer, the Doctors will suffer, the Combat Medics will suffer *hmm maybe not a bad thing lol, j/k of course, I love CM's.*. But think about it...
The harder it becomes to get resources, the more expensive the items will become. SOE has a problem with the economy turning to crud like this, so, over all, they won't go for it.
Besides, we have an Ace up our sleeve.. if they say that they are going to look into the Ceritfication of Harvesters, then we could ask for a total and mandatory recall of ALL harvesters. In other words, destroy them all. Make the server wipe them out. Then, they have to start out fresh. For all those that wanted Certifications, 150 Million credit BER 8 Large Harvesters.. Pay up or get out of the resource game, we're the builders, you're the buyers. Put up or shut up.
hehehe.. evil is as evil does.
Thank you all for your feedback and opinion.
The total is 25 Yes votes out of 220 posts.