Architect Archive
Thread: A Miners Message: Sent To Thunderheart
HalasterTheBlack
Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:57 am
#313
20 cpu? Wow!
OK, let's look at profit margins...
The cost of mining, when you factor in travel, if you're reasonably efficient, is 0.5cpu. You want miners to have a 4000% profit margin. Fine.
Now let's apply that same profit margin to Weaponsmiths (it's only fair, right?).
VK's require 85 units of materials. That means the WS is paying 1700cr per VK. At 4000% COGS (minus factory time, vendor time, maintenance on vendor structures and storage structures, etc.), a VK would cost your average Martial Artist 68,000 credits. A stocked T21 would cost your average Rifleman 696,000.
Note that these prices are at the exact same profit margin as you want miners to have. It can be argued that since WS is an Elite profession, its profit margins should be higher.
I'm sorry, I just lost all respect for your argument. I now clearly see it's based upon greed and the desire to hold Master Elites hostage / extort from them.
Happymob
Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:07 am
#314
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
VK's require 85 units of materials. That means the WS is paying 1700cr per VK. At 4000% COGS (minus factory time, vendor time, maintenance on vendor structures and storage structures, etc.), a VK would cost your average Martial Artist 68,000 credits. A stocked T21 would cost your average Rifleman 696,000.
I wouldn't look at the percentage margin, but instead at the credit margin. If the weaponsmith is selling that VK for 3500 credits, then the crafter and miner are roughly splitting the profits down the middle. To me, this seem entirely fair since both the miner and crafter have to work reasonably hard to come up with quality product.
This is what I base my own resource (primarily flora) on - I sell quality for 4 to 8 cpu understanding that the buyer can turn that into product that sell for 10 to 20 cpu. I save time by not having to craft myself and my customer saves time by not having to mine. We both profit and benefit in other important ways (i.e. I get to play my combat character more).
All that said, I'd have a hard time charging 20 cpu for anything other than a "best ever" out of spawn resource.
HalasterTheBlack
Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:44 am
#315
4-8 for a current spawn is still a bit high, but it's a far cry better than 20.
Best in class ever net 20-70 on my server, with the vast minority (exactly two resources right now) over 50. (Edit: To be perfectly clear, the resources are >6 months old and nearly 12 months old...)
And don't think for a minute that mining approaches the challenge and commitment required by master elite crafters. T-21's require a LOT of factory time, a LOT of time spent locating and gathering the best resources, a lot of time experimenting. The same can be said easily for armor, structures, food, enhance and stim packs, a whole host of other things. If it were as easy to be a WS or AS or Chef as it was to be a miner, a lot more people would do it.
Likewise, IRL, where's the profit margin in the chain from ground to Mustang? I'll give you a hint: the largest profit margin is NOT in the mining company.
Please, someone convince me that this isn't about GREED from the pro-cert crowd...
Message Edited by HalasterTheBlack on 06-22-2004 01:44 PM
Scoooter
Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:03 am
#316
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
Please, someone convince me that this isn't about GREED from the pro-cert crowd...
ooh that would be a tough one lol
Cafa
Wed Jun 23, 2004 11:04 am
#317
StGabriel wrote:
We have had FOUR well documented sessions of MASSIVE maintenance increases that almost wiped out a good portion of our city because people were away.
Hmm?
So are you misreading what I wrote (saying that harvesters are the only things that would need to be limited on admins) or is your city populated by harvesters?
StGabe.
Looking back over that I agree. I misread your intent. My apologies.
But the point of customer support being almost non-existant is still valid to the discussion, IMO.
Fivo Asia
joined42904
Thu Jun 24, 2004 12:10 am
#318
Gentlemen,
I did not say that I wanted folks to have to pay 20 cpu for current spawns. I said...if you actually read my post...that I don't have a particular price in mind. I used 20 cpu as an example because it was higher than *any* of Halaster's examples.
I merely intended to point out that the profit margins already built in allow folks to pay that and pass it on on a credit per credit basis without massive price increases. Of course, they wouldn't be able to pass it on as a percentage basis without a massive price increase UNLESS THEY MINED THEMSELVES.
There is of course nothing stop the elite profession people from mining themselves.... Under the cert plus no-admin system I will wager that many of them would mine themselves. That seems like a good thing to me. Maybe it doesn't to you.
HalasterTheBlack
Thu Jun 24, 2004 12:24 am
#319
You mean except for the limitation of 10 lots and the requirement to have factories for production and houses for storage and vendors? I would *love* to mine for myself. Gonna give me another20 or solots along with those certsso I can gather the resources I need to keep my vendors stocked?
joined42904 wrote:
Gentlemen,
I did not say that I wanted folks to have to pay 20 cpu for current spawns. I said...if you actually read my post...that I don't have a particular price in mind. I used 20 cpu as an example because it was higher than *any* of Halaster's examples.
I merely intended to point out that the profit margins already built in allow folks to pay that and pass it on on a credit per credit basis without massive price increases. Of course, they wouldn't be able to pass it on as a percentage basis without a massive price increase UNLESS THEY MINED THEMSELVES.
There is of course nothing stop the elite profession people from mining themselves.... Under the cert plus no-admin system I will wager that many of them would mine themselves. That seems like a good thing to me. Maybe it doesn't to you.
joined42904
Thu Jun 24, 2004 12:51 am
#320
Halaster,
In another thread, I believe I proposed something similar to what you are asking. I think I proposed a maximum of 15 additional lots to be used only for harvesters which are earned (and lost) exclusively by skill point expenditure.
Seems you didn't like that proposal much.
I also believe I proposed that you be able to be on admin of up to 3 or so houses and up to 5 or so factories but that it be capped at that. That's in addition to your own 10 lots by the way, though not all of your 10 lots would be usable for harvesters or factories.
I'm sure the devs could work out something fair.
I actually wish they would make you store resources...if at all...in a warehouse as opposed to storing them in your house. But that's just me. Of course a warehouse might cost multiple lots and not have as many slots for storing things as your house does where resources are concerned. 
ThothTheWise
Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:36 pm
#321
Very Small (perhapes insignificant) update.
3. Lots have not been addressed, it was specified by Keldarin that the main character/secondary will share 10 lots. Many Jedi have structures in their name by using the /transferstructure command which has not been labeled a punishment. Please check on what the conversion might do to existing structures.
Nothing will currently happen to Jedi who have used /transferstructure. Once the last details of the Jedi revamp go live, a Jedi will be able to have 10 lots per server. This will ultimately be addressed when we rebalance all characters lots, but that will not be happening in Publish 9.
Nothing will currently happen to Jedi who have used /transferstructure. Once the last details of the Jedi revamp go live, a Jedi will be able to have 10 lots per server. This will ultimately be addressed when we rebalance all characters lots, but that will not be happening in Publish 9.
The Link
ThothTheWise
Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:38 pm
#322
Very Small (perhapes insignificant) update.
3. Lots have not been addressed, it was specified by Keldarin that the main character/secondary will share 10 lots. Many Jedi have structures in their name by using the /transferstructure command which has not been labeled a punishment. Please check on what the conversion might do to existing structures.
Nothing will currently happen to Jedi who have used /transferstructure. Once the last details of the Jedi revamp go live, a Jedi will be able to have 10 lots per server. This will ultimately be addressed when we rebalance all characters lots, but that will not be happening in Publish 9.
Nothing will currently happen to Jedi who have used /transferstructure. Once the last details of the Jedi revamp go live, a Jedi will be able to have 10 lots per server. This will ultimately be addressed when we rebalance all characters lots, but that will not be happening in Publish 9.
The Link
HalasterTheBlack
Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:50 pm
#323
That can be interpreted many ways, including that they really do want each *player* to only have 10 lots per server, but that for now, in order to avoid destroying anything inadvertently and pissing people off, they're erring on the side of caution and letting Jedi keep the lots. And in some future publish, they'll knock it back down to 10 per account per server.
It could also be interpreted that the devs do not like the way that lots are allocated / used currentlyregardless whether or not they belong to Jedi.
In this case, though, since the context of the discussion is Jedi, the former seems more likely to be correct.
ThothTheWise
Thu Jun 24, 2004 4:06 pm
#324
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
That can be interpreted many ways, including that they really do want each *player* to only have 10 lots per server, but that for now, in order to avoid destroying anything inadvertently and pissing people off, they're erring on the side of caution and letting Jedi keep the lots. And in some future publish, they'll knock it back down to 10 per account per server.
It could also be interpreted that the devs do not like the way that lots are allocated / used currentlyregardless whether or not they belong to Jedi.
In this case, though, since the context of the discussion is Jedi, the former seems more likely to be correct.
Point well made. But with the Fan fest statment that they "dislike" the concept of Lot Trading as well as other "rumbelings" I have heard in the past as to how we USE our lots, not to mention the use of the term "all character lots", it still is something to keep in the back of peoples minds.
I get many forum PM asking me how I accomplished my Business model and how best they might replicate it on other servers. I always warn them that heavy investment is presently looking to be a bad idea considering these Dev "feelings" on the matter. The Time and Capital it takes to run up an operation of 50 to 100 harvs is not small....and I just do not see why so many are looking at it so short sightedly.
Not that planning for JTL is not able to bring future profits....But the risks are much greater now than befor in so doing. Something few, in my opinion, are taking into consideration.
HalasterTheBlack
Thu Jun 24, 2004 4:28 pm
#325
I'm right with ya on that.
I started the game mining. First mining to draw enough ore and steel and such for our guild architect to grind up to MA. Then more of the same to actually get all the resources required for a guild hall. Then I moved on to mining to support one of our guild Weaponsmiths. After a time, I realized I really liked doing it and that I had more capacity than she was using, so I mined more and sold it.
As time went on, I came to employ others as miners and supplied more and more people. I then set up a mining operation for my guild, got it running reasonably well, and handed it off (to retire, too much like work). I stepped back a bit and started moving in other directions, thus the weaponsmith / combatant duo I have going now.
That was all easy; it was boom time in the game. Everyone wanted weapons. And the grind was going like mad.
Now, things are slowing down considerably. Grinding is gone or will be gone shortly. Demand for resources is lower.
So, as good businesspeople, we must cut our expenses. Fortunately ingame, that doesn't mean setting someone out to figure out how the hell he's gonna feed his family and keep his house. It mirrors IRL business to enough of a degree to make it interesting, but not so much so as to make it painful. Unless, like The Donald, the words, "YOU'RE FIRED!" are among your favorites to utter...
And we'll see what happens in JTL. My personal hope is that every schematic has a significant resource quality requirements, as well as experimentation such that even an 14-point craftsman cannot make any item the best in all ways. THAT is the way to keep the economy strong - diversity and choice!