Architect Archive
Thread: A Miners Message: Sent To Thunderheart
ThothTheWise
Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:12 pm
#183
GraySeven wrote:
ThothTheWise, I understand that you don't wish to loose a lot of work and/or effort that you've put into this game, but you are exploiting the system, and as such, need to be stopped.
Single-character servers were created to stop just this sort of thing from happening, and while some people are paying for more than one account, 20 or 30 lots is a far cry from the 300 plus lots you are using.
You need to remember that because you are exploiting the system and dumping an extreme amount of resources on the market, you are skewing the data the Dev's use to determine the operations of the game, and the people who are going to suffer are the ones who are not exploiting the system. The MasterCrafter who mines his own resources using his allotted 10 lots can not hope to compete with someone able to pull in hundreds of thousands of units of resources per day, every day, and have the space to store them...
Showing us your cost/gain model, or what you do and how much it costs you to do it does not take away from the fact that you are using the system in a manner in which it was not meant to be used, and doing so for your own personal game. This, I believe, is the definition of exploting.
The Dev's are not doing this as a personal attack on you or others like you, but are instead fixing a problem. And, whether you believe it or not, it is a problem. Any time players are able to do something in the game that was not intended by the games designers, it has to be examined and removed if it is a threat to the balance of the game.
The actual detrimental effects of the cross-server lot swapping that allows some people to have hundreds of lots while others labor away with the 10 allowed to them may never be fully known, but I and a lot of people like me who remember what it was like when we weren't limited in Beta, and then ONLY allowed 75 before the final paring to 10 fully agree that these mega-mining operations must be stopped. They were never meant to be, and now that they are known must be removed from the game to bring things back to how they were intended.
I'm sorry if you feel unjustly punished, but just because you can do it does not make it right.
Throughout this thread I have seen the over all possible detriments My current incarnation of the Mining Vocation has placed upon the server. I am not not accepting any Value Judgments on what is already History, for I cannot change what has already taken place.
I have now redirected (having been convienced of the issues as problems) these threads to trying to get the community to add their Inventiveness into helping SOLVE the issue..in such a way as to Stop Lot Trades..while not nerfing it to the point where it destoryes the ability to MINE as a vocation.
I never competed with ANY crafter. I SOLD all the resources. and after assuming total management of the operation I sell for much less..tho that has more to do with the current market I feel than anything else.
The only crafter i may have interfered with was the crafter who also MINED to sell. To them all i can say is YES i had an unfair advantage..it took a great deal of work to do it..but it was an unfair one. I realize that now (at the time i hardly even thought about doing anything but meeting the demand) and as such have redirected as much effort into trying to find a way to stop it (that will not totally make being SOME kind of Miner Vocation feasable) as i put intobuilding that empire.
I can do no more than that.
Redguard
Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:38 pm
#184
Thoth:
Very well, good response. I'll accept the fact that you can agree that there have been negative consequences.
I take issue with the number of players in the game that use the excuse that engaging in unethical behavior is ok because the game doesn't tell me it's wrong. I guess something like this shouldn't surprise me considering the RL business climate that we live in. I hope the players I'm speaking of understand that the folks at Enron, Worldcom, Adelphiaetc etc also took a similar point of view.
I used to just accept the fact that things like this happen but there is nothing that perturbs me more than the denial of opportunity. People engaging in unethical behavior deny others who practice ethical behavior the opportunity to succeed. I'll refuse to accept the notion that it's the games fault. The game doesn't make the choices, the players do.
TheOxygen
Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:40 pm
#185
I get the impression that most people want every crafter to be a small-time business, but in a real economy this just doesn't happen. Much like resources miners, crafters will strive to achieve as much possible market share as they can, thus creating enough items to stay in constant supply. Is this a bad thing? I certainly hope not. The people who put the most time into their profession deserve to be as recognized as they are, and subsequently deserve the type of market share that they often enjoy. Why should someone who's been crafting since the game started be suddenly on an even level with someone who picked up the profession a month ago? Much like real businesses, new enterprises must strive to compete with larger operations, and while some do succeed (I've seen many cases on Lowca alone), many do fail because they simply don't wish to provide the effort necessary.
This comes down to business, and people have to accept that no matter what happens, there will be large and small operations, all competing for the same customers. Personally, I think what would help the economy the most is if there was more than one stat on crafted items that players cared about (Chef comes closest to this, and the benefits are readibly noticeable since chefs will cater to specific needs of customers based on effect, filling, duration, etc, thereby leaving other niche's for other chefs to fill).
However, I see no reason to penalize people who rent lots from other players simply because they enjoy running a resource business. I also see no reason to change harvesters as they stand, because as I have repeated in nearly every post I've made in these threads, the cross-server lot trading "problem" will solve itself because grind-quality materials will become pretty much obsolete.
--Iaan K'Vork
TheOxygen
Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:54 pm
#186
Redguard wrote:
Toth,
If the intent of the developers is to limit supply by limiting the resources needd to meet demand then hell I'm all for that. It's certainly a better solution than the "crafter fix" that they tried a few months ago. The idea is to provide a market for everyone to sell their goods. Even if the goods are not the best of the best they will sell but not at premium prices. There have to be some variables in the game. Not every suit of composite should have 80% resists. Not every weapon is going to achieve it's maximum potential. People that can afford to buy the best will but that will not be the majority of the playerbase.
Ok, let's say that you and player X are both customers to my mining business. Under the current conditions, an uber polysteel shifts in, and you each want, say 400k (it's so good that you feel there won't be another for a very long time). I tell each of you sure, it'll be 3cpu and I'll have it delievered within 3 days.
Under a new system with admin to owners only, certs, etc, my ability to harvest large quantities is reduced. Same situation happens, and you each want 400k of materials. Now I'm left having to explain that I simply cannot harvest enough to satisfy both your needs. Player X immediately responds that he'll pay me 10cpu. You simply don't have the credits to be able to compete, so you're left looking for either another miner, or doing without the goods. This *should* make you unhappy, since it's more work for you, and you don't have a garaunteed supply at that point. It makes *me* unhappy because I'm only able to provide for one customer, and this makes my other customers unhappy and less likely to return. So pretty much my whole business model (which revolves around customer service) is dumped into the toilet.
How about instead of limiting resources, the devs change experimentation so that more than one line matters (or has a significant effect, for that matter) to players? Wouldn't there be more room for new crafters and competition if there was some variability in goods, rather than everyone dumping all their points into the same line and hoping their resources are better than the next guys? This solution helps all weaponsmiths (aside from those that make the best on a server, and I've heard complaints from even them that they're tired of making the same guns with the same stats over and over again), while allowing resource miners to still function as a proper business, whether they're supplying for just their guild, or for many different crafters around the server.
--Iaan K'Vork
RotorofCorRng
Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:23 pm
#187
TheOxygen wrote:I also see no reason to change harvesters as they stand, because as I have repeated in nearly every post I've made in these threads, the cross-server lot trading "problem" will solve itself because grind-quality materials will become pretty much obsolete.--Iaan K'Vork
Lets take my main prof for example. I could give a flying heap what kind of ore pops under a field of 270 static crosserver lot trade harvesters. Why? Because I dont care waht teh quality is, I just need quantity. I am not sure, but I believe most professions out there have one material, that all they need is qty, not quality. If there aint (which I doubt), that still leaves Architect that choose to run such huge field, by using crossserver trading, overpowering those of us that dont circumvent the system.
I'll say it again, you want to run 270 lots, rent/buy the lots, get help from guildies, friends. Crosserver trading is a way to circumvent a limit that was imposed to lessen the overpowering abilities of few, maximize interaction between players, spread the wealth and overall enjoyment of the game.
EnderStarfall
Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:50 pm
#188
The following is copied and pasted directly from the EULA that is displayed when first starting the game and you have to click accept to get by:
6. We may terminate this Agreement and/or suspend your Account immediately and without notice: (i) if you violate any provision of this Agreement; (ii) if you infringe any third party intellectual property rights; (iii) if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us; (iv) if you violate any of the player rules of conduct located at the Game Site or The Station (as defined below in Paragraph 9) rules of conduct located at http://sonyonline.com/tos/tos.jsp (either of which we may amend or supplement from time to time, in our discretion), ( These rules are very open ended at best which leaves room for SOE to do whatever they feel is right ) 
or (v) if you engage in game play, chat or any player activity whatsoever which we, in our discretion, determine is inappropriate and/or in violation of the spirit of the Game. ( Doesnt get any more vague than that. Again left undefined and with SOE in complete control over what is or isnt allowed in game.)
or (v) if you engage in game play, chat or any player activity whatsoever which we, in our discretion, determine is inappropriate and/or in violation of the spirit of the Game. ( Doesnt get any more vague than that. Again left undefined and with SOE in complete control over what is or isnt allowed in game.) No where in the EULA does it stated that cross server trading is not allowed.
I dont agree that cross server lot trade are in the spirit of the game ( at least not in the number the original poster describes. ) The reason why I say this is because new players joining the server have less access to the same HQ resources being mass harvested by the "miners" and therefore takes away from their gaming experience. And having all these " Extra Inactive " toons on servers just for the lots trades is taxing on server resources and in some way shape or form can effect the performace of the game. Im sure everyone sees what happens when getting off the shuttle in coronet.
Well thats my 2 credits on the topic. Good Luck to you Toth either way man. I know your just trying to save all the work you put into your bussiness but at some point every businees goes belly up
Brilyn
Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:26 pm
#189
Here's a complicated concept:
It's an RPG.
There is only *1* universe. There is no pan-dimensional travel.
Creating a Toon to trade lots in another universe is not possible *within* the confines of the game.
This would be an exploit, in that case, an exploit being defined as a player kicking the game in a manner unforseen by the programmers.
Exploits are banned.
Oh, dear, no, you're right, SOE have not *explicitly* stated that cross-server trading is an exploit.
Was duping *less* of an exploit before SOE declared it to be so?
No. It was (and is) an exploit, regardless of when SOE copped to the fact it was taking place.
Suck it up, get over it. I'll survive if cross-server trading is killed.
In fact, I'll celebrate.
ThothTheWise
Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:01 pm
#190
I'm Rather enjoying those who are responding to the initial post without gleening the further subject matter being discussed.
1) My business was created at a time when it was the only way (at leat from my hindsight) to meet the overwhelming demand for resources.
2) the Devs were alerted to My operation and looked into it. At no time was I asked to discontinue my current model.
3) now that the over all demand is done, There is no need for such huge fleets (this is in my opinion)
4) because of number three as well as the devs MENTIONING (nothing has officially been posted upon the forums) that they feel that cross server Lot Trades are a detriment to the present economy, I shall NOT be renewing My harvestor fleets in their current incarnation.
5) the main reason for this thread is to hopefully gather the community together to discuss some of the Potential Fixes the devs MENTIONED when they mentioned that they wished to end the practice of Cross Server Lot Trades, and what the ramifications of those proposed Fixs might be to both the Power gamers and Miners, as well as to the "normal" and Casual Gamers.
jassi007
Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:02 pm
#191
One thing I'm curious. Your only making a net profit of about 2-3 million? That seems really low. I use my spare lots for harvs. I pick up and place each week on the best avliable spawn at the time, having contacts with many craft-people. I net profit 1.5-2 million per week. If your only making 2-3 million every 2 weeks with 300 harvs, it would hardly seem worth all the time and effort when the same profit could be had with 5-7 just by being selective with resources. Plus it would leave the galaxy a bit less cluttered for all. Just a thought. I don't really have any moral objection to what your doing, just seems like your doing alot of work for little reward.
ThothTheWise
Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:12 pm
#192
I HAVE made 30 million in a month befor. However less people play and as such the demand is simply down.
I also do not MIND not making a great deal of return..I simply enjoy providing a service and getting enough extrra to make it worth my time. I tend to have the "builder" personality Lol
For me If it were all to go poof tomorrow I would be ok with it..simply because I had DONE it. I have also placed at one time in the past a second city hall w/ 9 houses and then dropped 15 of the end 25 bases to make a true complex. This ewas befor the base fixes and a shallow little PA took them out in two nights with 6 folks LOL..But STILL it was accomplished..and as such even that made me happy.
anyway what i'm now trying to do is get the overall community to discuss the "mentioned" possibilities dealing with Fixing this issue, in so far as if it will hurt the non power gamers as much as it may hurt those who Crss Server Lot Trade.
ThothTheWise
Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:58 pm
#193
Here is a quote from the Artisan forum. It is about a seperate call for the halt to Lot Trades ( i think specifically cross server) , But later someone presented this argument, which may be a reason to implemnt some sort of Certfication of Harvestors.
Please add your thoughts.
MinerMighty wrote:
Spacesloth, what makes it acceptable for combat oriented professionals to suppliment their income through mining (an artisan and crafter trait) without using up additional skill points, and not acceptable for dedicated crafting professionals to suppliment their income through combat without picking up additional combat skills?
ThothTheWise
Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:59 pm
#194
Here is a quote from the Artisan forum. It is about a seperate call for the halt to Lot Trades ( i think specifically cross server) , But later someone presented this argument, which may be a reason to implemnt some sort of Certfication of Harvestors.
Please add your thoughts.
MinerMighty wrote:
Spacesloth, what makes it acceptable for combat oriented professionals to suppliment their income through mining (an artisan and crafter trait) without using up additional skill points, and not acceptable for dedicated crafting professionals to suppliment their income through combat without picking up additional combat skills?
OckVofad
Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:09 pm
#195
Ok. If they remove admin on all structures. Whats going to happen to all the merchants and Malls in the Galaxies? I have several vendors in other peoples shops. should i no loger be able to do this?
Go and post this idea in its current form in the Merchant forum and you will be flamed like crazy.
The devs have to take into account how this will effect all players not just artisans.
I will ask this again: Why is it that every time I read the Artisian forums somebody here is calling for Nerfs?
I make money as an artisian using existing game mechanics why cant you?