Architect Archive
Thread: A Miners Message: Sent To Thunderheart
ThothTheWise
Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:40 pm
#170
I am not placing Value Judegments uponthe behavior for one reason. I inherited 200 of the harvestors from someone who left the game. He did placed them for a very simple reason. He wished to Mine..the demand was there..he coulnd't meet.
Another reason I am not placing a Value judgement on the Behavior was because he lived in Austin..was a Lawyer and KNEW(Edit: since i cannot "prove he knew any devs..let us then say that Devs were informed and shown the Fleets in question)devs and had them Look at his operation. They didnt ask him to discontinue.
(Edit: Actually the comment ran more along the lines of; WOW we didn't expect this...quite an operation you have here. We will be looking at the ramifications.)
I understand the opinion that it circumvented the "spirit" of the intentions placed by the Devs. I also can state pretty well that Holo grinding, being the bad call it was, Forced up a fake demand wich enabled and urged people to attempt to meet it.
The problem exists because of people thinbking outside the Box. Ethics wasn't even being thought of at the time..simply trying to meet demand for his products.
I admit that overall it helped to screw the economy to in no small proportion. Just bringing the debate to the Boards so we may try and DIRECT these changes so that the possible "Knee Jerk" reaction of the Devs doesn't Screw the pooch in the attempt to solve this issue.
Respectfully,
I'Thoth
Message Edited by ThothTheWise on 06-11-2004 08:55 PM
GraySeven
Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:51 pm
#171
ThothTheWise, I understand that you don't wish to loose a lot of work and/or effort that you've put into this game, but you are exploiting the system, and as such, need to be stopped.
Single-character servers were created to stop just this sort of thing from happening, and while some people are paying for more than one account, 20 or 30 lots is a far cry from the 300 plus lots you are using.
You need to remember that because you are exploiting the system and dumping an extreme amount of resources on the market, you are skewing the data the Dev's use to determine the operations of the game, and the people who are going to suffer are the ones who are not exploiting the system. The MasterCrafter who mines his own resources using his allotted 10 lots can not hope to compete with someone able to pull in hundreds of thousands of units of resources per day, every day, and have the space to store them...
Showing us your cost/gain model, or what you do and how much it costs you to do it does not take away from the fact that you are using the system in a manner in which it was not meant to be used, and doing so for your own personal game. This, I believe, is the definition of exploting.
The Dev's are not doing this as a personal attack on you or others like you, but are instead fixing a problem. And, whether you believe it or not, it is a problem. Any time players are able to do something in the game that was not intended by the games designers, it has to be examined and removed if it is a threat to the balance of the game.
The actual detrimental effects of the cross-server lot swapping that allows some people to have hundreds of lots while others labor away with the 10 allowed to them may never be fully known, but I and a lot of people like me who remember what it was like when we weren't limited in Beta, and then ONLY allowed 75 before the final paring to 10 fully agree that these mega-mining operations must be stopped. They were never meant to be, and now that they are known must be removed from the game to bring things back to how they were intended.
I'm sorry if you feel unjustly punished, but just because you can do it does not make it right.
ThothTheWise
Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:15 am
#172
EdOWar wrote:
BigZak wrote:
They have decided it is an abuse and are gonna...
A) make a cert for Med and Heavy
B) give only admin rights to the creater
Ouch....get ready guys, it's gonna hurt. But it is the only thing they can do to stop the exploit.
And you think that is gonna hurt, ppl who got merchant for venders then dropped merchant, nope, your venders are gonna go bye bye, 3000 items on venders, nope, 150 items on venders, no more storing items on venders, bye bye.
We are in for some big changes, just be ready for it.
Squiders, Radiant
Weaponsmith, armorsmith, merchant, master artisan, scout, medic
Do you have a link to anything that the Devs have said on this? I'd be interested in reading it if you do. If they really go through with harvestor certification, that will hurt a lot more than just eliminating cross-server lot trading. Ouch indeed.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Like i said....This isnt JUST about crossserver LotTrades. If it were admin nerf would stop that in very short order. If they add Certs its about LIMITING the avaliability of craftersto meet demand.
They desier the crafters to always be struggling to even meet demand thus insuring that there IS a demand from now on.
Market share will get extremely small, since people simpply will not be able to make runs of the magnitude they do now. The days of a armoursmith/weaponsmith crafting enough iteams to ALWAYS be in stock and thus securing a reputation and increasing his/her market share will also be getting "nerfed". So that there is more "room" for the up and comming crafters of the future.
I would hope if they add certs that medium harvestors would at the very least be survey 4...tho i have no bloody idea where i would place the Certs for heavies. Reguardless of where they place them..that is the Stuff I will take. I ENJOY being a miner. Wish they would have done it correctly in the beginning..LEFT IN the Miner profession and made it so not every and anyone could drop them.
HalasterTheBlack
Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:37 am
#173
I don't know about you guys, but I'm sure as hell not gonna trust some cross-server schlub with 100m units of MY resources.
Admin on buildings is not necessary; Human nature itself will renderthe notion of trading house lotsworthless.
And it *is* perfectly reasonable (and in the best interest of the playerbase) to create vendor malls, where you have many vendors hosted in a single structure. This doesn't *have* to be a guild hall. Removing admin from houses would severely hinder the ability to serve players in this way.
Ebonfire
Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:11 am
#174
This is my 2.5 credits...
The economy is running at a (slight) net loss according to the astormatic stats post a few weeks ago, and it was also stated that the main source of income was missions.Since then ithas been stated that armor is going to be brought down, and there will be no more multi thousand point buffs.. sooo goodbye 32k missions pumping all this excess currency into the economy.
I have my main combat character, and my alt crafter, so I usually have 20-25 heavies up with theaid of guildies. I mustsay that they are expensiveto maintain, andthey are a huge credit sink. Unless they reduce maint fees onhouses, cities, and harvesters..the economy will be running at amore than just a slight netloss after the combat rebalance. People will not be able to afford 400 harvester simply because there is not enough currency available to support such opperations.
As far as lot swapping goes; there is not way I could play a architect and armorsmith without cross server lot swapping, thus freeing up lots from the 5factories I maintain. If factories were more efficient then it might be ok, but 28 minutes of factory time to produce 1 composite helmet is way too much.
ThothTheWise
Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:26 am
#175
Ebonfire wrote:
This is my 2.5 credits...
The economy is running at a (slight) net loss according to the astormatic stats post a few weeks ago, and it was also stated that the main source of income was missions.Since then ithas been stated that armor is going to be brought down, and there will be no more multi thousand point buffs.. sooo goodbye 32k missions pumping all this excess currency into the economy.
I have my main combat character, and my alt crafter, so I usually have 20-25 heavies up with theaid of guildies. I mustsay that they are expensiveto maintain, andthey are a huge credit sink. Unless they reduce maint fees onhouses, cities, and harvesters..the economy will be running at amore than just a slight netloss after the combat rebalance. People will not be able to afford 400 harvester simply because there is not enough currency available to support such opperations.
As far as lot swapping goes; there is not way I could play a architect and armorsmith without cross server lot swapping, thus freeing up lots from the 5factories I maintain. If factories were more efficient then it might be ok, but 28 minutes of factory time to produce 1 composite helmet is way too much.
This Statement is very correct. If we also look at the current absence of active Players that also decreases the demand (at least in the sort term) of products and incomming cash reserves.
That is what The Oxygen has also stated; IS this something that is requiering of a FIX? Does / will the current trends of the Free Market Checks and Balances be enough to diminish the need and practical use of cross server Lot Trades for the biggest Iteam that seems to be in debate, Harvesters?
The Lot Trading of PA Halls and houses has a very minimal Impact (in my opinion) on the over all game economy. Yes they can Lot Trade forever to increase their Storage space..but is that a realistic fear in todays Market with fewer iteams being bought and thereby (hopefully) Less being made?
As for Factories....I feel for you Sir. My alt is an Arch/Merchant and it takes approx 24 hours or more to make a run of Structural Moduals (the basic building blocks of walls) and cost TWO lots for each factory. However If they can Artifically adjust the Market so that crafters are always falling SHORT of meeting demands for their services...I would suggest that factory speeds may also get some form of readjustment.
ThothTheWise
Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:06 am
#176
Allow me to do a very POOR attempt to show ,what I feel to be a perfect running SWG Economy.
Minerals are Harvested by 3 types of people:
1) - The Combatant: this gent either takes a few hours twice a week and drops his own Harvs or rents out his lots to another for a weekly fee.
2)- The Crafter: This Player harvests enough resources to make his products, as well as ebnough extra to sell on the open market..or save for future use (usually exceptional Quality Resources)
3)- The Dedicated Harvestor (miner): This individual has decided to make the Gathering of Minable Resources his major Time sink and Play style within the game. In our "perfect Economy Model" He rents Lots from other active players upon his/her server and dabbels when possible in aquiering small quantities of resources from the above mentioned classes in order to then resale his wares with as much of a selection as is possible.
Crafters:
All you wonderful Creators of Goods would be "limited" in scope by a few things.
1)- Resource quantity: With using Active Player Lots by the Miner, Buying from the bazzars, or by Harvesting Yourself You will have a limited (this is a best case scenerio) supply of "TOP Quality" resources with which to make your products with. Meaning that the Supply of "the best to be had" Products would be less than the demand for them can supply, there by creating a market for "almost as good, but not quite" products from those who are comming behind you/ do not have the Capital to pay the top price for the top resources.
2)- Lots: with the need to "store" some excess stock and materials being limited (for the above reason) it is hoped that your overall storage needs would diminish. This also is taking into account your "need" for multiple factories to save time in making your products, as well as having to do (possibly) some of your own Harvesting to insure you get what your after. a large house = 5 lots, 2 factories (unless your an Arch) = 2 lots giving you 3 Lots left over to pull very Specific resources that otherwise you would be charge a high price on the open market for.
(this also takes into account that there are NO Cross server Lot Trades. any same server lottrades simply take away potential storage spece from the individual your renting them from wich still fits into the over all plan)
3)- Product Making: With the reduction in over all resource quantity the over all SIZE of your runs will be much less as well. Because the demand for the resources would be greater than the supply..would mean that Your ability to mass produce iteams in such quantities that you can make "the best or nothing at all" and still retain market share would be limited.
If you couldnt make 1000 peices of each peice of composite from one batch of resources (it could be done but would requier a truely dedicated or wealthy Character to aquier all the resources from such a diminished supply) then sit back and sell them over the next few months while waiting for the next batch of "uber" resources to rinse and repeat the process, then in order to retain your Marketshare (by always having a well stocked vendor) You would need to have on hand as much "serviceable" ,not necessarily the BEST stuff avaliable, Product as possible.
The above is also taking into account that Players WILL want the Best..and so will be willing to wait or look to another Provider who also is of your same caliber and quality....who just happened to not run out yet.
Cash Influx
Ahh where would we all be if it were not for our wonderful Combat oriented Individuals? With the combat rebalance, and all that goes with it, there will be less incomming Capital into the machiene. They will go thru armour, weapons, spices, buffs, food more often as their resistances decrease in their armour. BUT because of this they will start Grouping more to achieve their goals and in so doing bring less capital into the mix..yet still going thru the above stated iteams more often.
This means that the DEMAND for iteams will always be more than what we can supply...without more crafters stepping up to the plate. Even with that, Players will always WANT the best...and since our supply of the best is limited, the prices for said iteams will increase. Those that Play hard core..will end up Paying hard core.
Its not a perfect model..but its closer to what they envisioned than what we are dealing with currently.
The total bottom of the supply chain is the harvestor, and the influx of Credits. One controlls the ability to Supply the product...the other controlls what Price that product will go for.
The end goal being this: People Harvest justunder (and I do mean JUST) what the demand is of the resource market..this enables a fair balance of supply/demand for the raw materials...which granted still will not be distributed "fairly". People Craft UNDER what the demand is for "Top Quality" products, thus insuring that those just below the best have a market. And, with few exceptions, the resources and products made from them are used faster than they can be procured, thus keeping the demand a constant, and keeps the Storage of Resources and Products to a absolute minimum.
I strongly feel THIS is what they are after.
Message Edited by ThothTheWise on 06-12-2004 04:27 AM
ThothTheWise
Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:14 am
#177
Allow me to do a very POOR attempt to show ,what I feel to be a perfect running SWG Economy.
Minerals are Harvested by 3 types of people:
1) - The Combatant: this gent either takes a few hours twice a week and drops his own Harvs or rents out his lots to another for a weekly fee.
2)- The Crafter: This Player harvests enough resources to make his products, as well as ebnough extra to sell on the open market..or save for future use (usually exceptional Quality Resources)
3)- The Dedicated Harvestor (miner): This individual has decided to make the Gathering of Minable Resources his major Time sink and Play style within the game. In our "perfect Economy Model" He rents Lots from other active players upon his/her server and dabbels when possible in aquiering small quantities of resources from the above mentioned classes in order to then resale his wares with as much of a selection as is possible.
Crafters:
All you wonderful Creators of Goods would be "limited" in scope by a few things.
1)- Resource quantity: With using Active Player Lots by the Miner, Buying from the bazzars, or by Harvesting Yourself You will have a limited (this is a best case scenerio) supply of "TOP Quality" resources with which to make your products with. Meaning that the Supply of "the best to be had" Products would be less than the demand for them can supply, there by creating a market for "almost as good, but not quite" products from those who are comming behind you/ do not have the Capital to pay the top price for the top resources.
2)- Lots: with the need to "store" some excess stock and materials being limited (for the above reason) it is hoped that your overall storage needs would diminish. This also is taking into account your "need" for multiple factories to save time in making your products, as well as having to do (possibly) some of your own Harvesting to insure you get what your after. a large house = 5 lots, 2 factories (unless your an Arch) = 2 lots giving you 3 Lots left over to pull very Specific resources that otherwise you would be charge a high price on the open market for.
(this also takes into account that there are NO Cross server Lot Trades. any same server lottrades simply take away potential storage spece from the individual your renting them from wich still fits into the over all plan)
3)- Product Making: With the reduction in over all resource quantity the over all SIZE of your runs will be much less as well. Because the demand for the resources would be greater than the supply..would mean that Your ability to mass produce iteams in such quantities that you can make "the best or nothing at all" and still retain market share would be limited.
If you couldnt make 1000 peices of each peice of composite from one batch of resources (it could be done but would requier a truely dedicated or wealthy Character to aquier all the resources from such a diminished supply) then sit back and sell them over the next few months while waiting for the next batch of "uber" resources to rinse and repeat the process, then in order to retain your Marketshare (by always having a well stocked vendor) You would need to have on hand as much "serviceable" ,not necessarily the BEST stuff avaliable, Product as possible.
The above is also taking into account that Players WILL want the Best..and so will be willing to wait or look to another Provider who also is of your same caliber and quality....who just happened to not run out yet.
Cash Influx
Ahh where would we all be if it were not for our wonderful Combat oriented Individuals? With the combat rebalance, and all that goes with it, there will be less incomming Capital into the machiene. They will go thru armour, weapons, spices, buffs, food more often as their resistances decrease in their armour. BUT because of this they will start Grouping more to achieve their goals and in so doing bring less capital into the mix..yet still going thru the above stated iteams more often.
This means that the DEMAND for iteams will always be more than what we can supply...without more crafters stepping up to the plate. Even with that, Players will always WANT the best...and since our supply of the best is limited, the prices for said iteams will increase. Those that Play hard core..will end up Paying hard core.
Its not a perfect model..but its closer to what they envisioned than what we are dealing with currently.
The total bottom of the supply chain is the harvestor, and the influx of Credits. One controlls the ability to Supply the product...the other controlls what Price that product will go for.
The end goal being this: People Harvest justunder (and I do mean JUST) what the demand is of the resource market..this enables a fair balance of supply/demand for the raw materials...which granted still will not be distributed "fairly". People Craft UNDER what the demand is for "Top Quality" products, thus insuring that those just below the best have a market. And, with few exceptions, the resources and products made from them are used faster than they can be procured, thus keeping the demand a constant, and keeps the Storage of Resources and Products to a absolute minimum.
I strongly feel THIS is what they are after.
Is there a basic agreement of this?
Message Edited by ThothTheWise on 06-12-2004 04:20 AM
ThothTheWise
Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:33 am
#178
I Must apologize Profusely for not being able to keep up with all of the threads that i started. There are simply to many good ideas to try and cross share.
As such i would like to point you to these threads. PLEASE READ THEM as much growth of opinion has occured and many very good opinions and views have been shared on the topic.
Thank You for your Consideration,
I'Thoth
Architect Forum
Weaponsmith Forum
ThothTheWise
Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:36 am
#179
I must Apologize Profusely for not being able to follow thru adequately on all of the threads that i started.
There are simply to many good and valid Opinions and ideas to attempt to cross share. As such i would redirect you to these two threads. PLEASE READ THEM as many opinions are shared and ideas are growing in both form and substance.
Thank You for your Consideration,
I'Thoth
Architect Forum
Weaponsmith Forum
GraySeven
Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:21 am
#180
Finding a "creative way" to end the cross-server lot swap dilemma may simply not be possible. But the first thing that needs to happen is for cross-server swappers to stop themselves. Only then can any negative impact be noted. Otherwise, we may not know what the effects of nerfing the cross-server trades until they are nerfed in fact.
I have nothing against static fields of harvesters. I have nothing against people who use lots by other players on their own server (as long as they weren't created for the cross-server trades). It should be very possible for an enterprising individual to "buy" lots from other players who might otherwise not use them, as long as they are active characters. I myself used this system to a degree.
I feel the problem revolves around the movement of crafting away from a personal art to a mass-production type business. I have never made a factory crate of a finished armor, aside from the disposable PSG's. Typically, I only make factory crates of components, simply due to the sheer number of them required to make armor and, especially, droids. I was always satisfied when I finished a particularly good suit of composite, custom-colored to order, with the resists and HAM just as the customer ordered...
Now, we get people pumping out factory-crates of the pieces, and the only time you'll see hand crafting is when loot segments/enhancements are used during the construction. Factory runs of high end schematics require obscene amounts of resources and take a lot of factory time, which fuel the need for extra lots.
I'll give you an example. The PSG Mk III, a 4th tier schematic, requires 80 units of iron, 30 steel, 30 low-grade ore and 8 finished components, three of which are required to be identical from a factory crate. This limits the maximum run of final product to 332. 2 of the components are MA items, with factory times of 120 to 156 per unit. The other three are AS items with factory times of 240 per unit. Two of the items need runs of 333, but one (the one that requires 3 identical from crates) takes 999 units for a max final schematic. That is 127 hours of clothing factory time (on one factory) and approx 25.5 hours of equipment factory time (again, one factory). The final run takes over 46400 resources and over 60 factory crates of components (representing another 68000+ resources) and factory times of 480 per unit, coming out to another 44 hours of factory time, required to be on one factory.
Did the Dev's intend that I be allowed to do this? I'm not really sure, but seeing as I did it with 20 lots means that while I don't need 300+ lots to do it, I also couldn't do it with the normally allotted 10, at least not easily. Storage space alone eats up a lot of my lots, and I pay a lot of credits to keep my factories sitting idle holding finished product...
All of that work for something with just under 1k condition that is useless after 2-5 fights, and has never really "worked right". Before this, I made my PSG's by hand and only did a factory run when Hardcore Gunbunnies asked for them for ease of storage, 1 crate of 5 to 20 being easier to keep that the equivilent amount of single PSG's.
With the end of the hologrind, the need for massive amounts of resources may end as well, and with the new system for Jedi it occurs to me that the need for finished goods used in "adventuring" will increase as more people go out to kick butt and chew gum and suddenly find out they are out of gum...perhaps we will see a natural shift away from mega-mining. I for one can never find high-quality name specific resources at outlet prices. I always end up mining my Polysteel copper or Vertex crystalline gemstone myself.
It would be nice if the problem corrects itself by making the operations unprofitable due to lack of sales. It would solve everything.
Redguard
Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:28 am
#181
Toth,
I believe that people will buy what they can afford. I am a master merchant as well as a master weaponsmith. I make weapons as well as I can and I charge reasonable rates for my goods. There are weaponsmiths who make superior products but they charge more for them. I still sell my guns and he still sells his guns. The differences in performance aremarginal but we are both able to compete.
If the intent of the developers is to limit supply by limiting the resources needd to meet demand then hell I'm all for that. It's certainly a better solution than the "crafter fix" that they tried a few months ago. The idea is to provide a market for everyone to sell their goods. Even if the goods are not the best of the best they will sell but not at premium prices. There have to be some variables in the game. Not every suit of composite should have 80% resists. Not every weapon is going to achieve it's maximum potential. People that can afford to buy the best will but that will not be the majority of the playerbase.
I also don't see the reduction of credits because of group mission payouts as a problem. The combat character in a group is getting a reward for each mission selected. More missions with bigger groups means more opportunities to make credits. I also do not believe that a reduction of credit influx would be such a bad thing. It means a stronger credit and the possibility that the their value will recover ftom the dark days of duping.
joined42904
Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:44 am
#182
Thoth,
I really don't read many threads outsidethis forum, my server forum, and itsforum. Perhaps you could copy the parts that seem relevant over to here if you want us to comment on them.
Or at least please tell us if the devs or a correspondent is writing posts over there.
I understand that admin on houses has an advantage. It seems that many of those advantages would be kept even if resources were made un-adminable...a differentclass of item that you couldn't pick up even if on admin unless you were the owner. And of course picking up any container with resources in it counts as picking up the resources themselves. You could then drop anything but resources for a non-owner to pick up. And you could even drop resources in the person's OWN house, just not in your house. That doesn't seem too restricting to me, Giami. Does it to you?