Architect Archive
Thread: A Miners Message: Sent To Thunderheart
BigZak wrote:
They have decided it is an abuse and are gonna...
A) make a cert for Med and Heavy
B) give only admin rights to the creater
Ouch....get ready guys, it's gonna hurt. But it is the only thing they can do to stop the exploit.
And you think that is gonna hurt, ppl who got merchant for venders then dropped merchant, nope, your venders are gonna go bye bye, 3000 items on venders, nope, 150 items on venders, no more storing items on venders, bye bye.
We are in for some big changes, just be ready for it.
Squiders, Radiant
Weaponsmith, armorsmith, merchant, master artisan, scout, medic
bluejanus wrote:
RotorofCorRng wrote:
So are you saying that people who played earlier or have more time than casual or new players have an unfair advantage?
No I am saying that if they didnt care about a certain few overpowering others they would have granted everyone unlimited lots. Crossserver trading is a way around that artificial limit. If you want to overpower me, by renting lots from other people within your server, that is fine. But to use crosserver lot trades to keep YOUR supply high and YOUR costs down is way to circumvent the system. Yes it is unfair.
RotorofCorRng wrote:
bluejanus wrote:
RotorofCorRng wrote:
So are you saying that people who played earlier or have more time than casual or new players have an unfair advantage?
No I am saying that if they didnt care about a certain few overpowering others they would have granted everyone unlimited lots. Crossserver trading is a way around that artificial limit. If you want to overpower me, by renting lots from other people within your server, that is fine. But to use crosserver lot trades to keep YOUR supply high and YOUR costs down is way to circumvent the system. Yes it is unfair.
Ok, Let us say for the sake of Dev inevitability, that this WILL get changed. How can We as a community assist them, Idea wise, so that they do not end up screwing the pooch by nerfing it so badly as to hurt the casual players? (which is why i started this damn post anyway.
As i have stated befor, I (and most like me) will not be continuing to do this simply because the holomarket is declining.
Thoughts?
TheOxygen wrote:
....Hologrinding is gone, therefore static harvester fields are economically unviable. Players will not be willing to dump millions of credits into harvesters just in the hopes that something good will spawn under them....
I personally run about 20 harvesters but I do it legit. I pay for the spaces every month, and these resources I get are more than enough for personal use with quite a bit left over to sell off.
I don't agree with the total elimination of lot swapping. I do however, believe in a limitation. It wouldn't be too difficult to restrict the number of structures a person can have admin on. Toss out a number of 20. This still allows people to have 10 of their own structures and have houses/harvesters/factories on traded lots.
BigZak wrote:
They have decided it is an abuse and are gonna...
A) make a cert for Med and Heavy
B) give only admin rights to the creater
Ouch....get ready guys, it's gonna hurt. But it is the only thing they can do to stop the exploit.
And you think that is gonna hurt, ppl who got merchant for venders then dropped merchant, nope, your venders are gonna go bye bye, 3000 items on venders, nope, 150 items on venders, no more storing items on venders, bye bye.
We are in for some big changes, just be ready for it.
Squiders, Radiant
Weaponsmith, armorsmith, merchant, master artisan, scout, medic
i never heard much of anything about adding harvester certifications..it got a few brief mention by the attendees at fanfest but i didn't hear anything about it from any of the dev's. the argument was pretty oogly on the artisan forums for awhilewhich is probably why somebody brought it up at fanfest.
and yeah the non-merchant vendor bit is supposedly going forward 
if anybody has seen any dev announcement on the question of harvester certs..i'd appreciate a posted link
My business model is based on a community effort. Each of us have our assigned jobs, taken from what we want to do and what we personally consider fun. By virtue of the fact that I have more time on my hands to play, I am the manager of the business. I oversee just about everything from start to finish.
My primary character on the server is Master Merchant, Master Artisan, Master Architect and Politician. My secondary character is working towards Master Creature Handler and is already a Master Bio-Engineer. We have on the Estate masters of all the other crafting professions, some in duplicate now (we only lack a Master Weaponsmith at this time, but he's "grinding" his way up there). We even have one additional Master Merchant.
We maintain a city hall, a guild hall, one large tatooine house, six medium tatooine houses, twenty-two or so small tatooine houses we use as resource and component warehouses. In addition to this, we maintain two factories of each style, and recently had to add in another equipment factory. Currently, we have roughly fifty harvesters working to supply our nineteen crafters with resources.
None of this has been done with cross-server lot trading/lot mules. There are five characters that joined us on this server from another, and they all play. (Although as I mentioned before, two of them run another guild/city that is far larger than mine and they very rarely get a chance to play over on my server, just like I rarely get a chance to play over on their server.)
Because my job is doing the harvester runs, I figure out what resources we need at any given time, set harvester to pulling it up, arrange for harvesters to be moved if we need to, check the forums, read up on issues affecting all professions, check swg.craft, the list is endless on what I need to do. The others in the guild on the business aspect, simply need to let me know if they need a specific resource and I add it to my list to watch out for. Inventory is taken every other month in full where all crafters replace resources back into the warehouses so we can take stock of what we have and what we need to get in the next months to come. The rest get the luxury of focusing only on crafting or doing whatever else they want to do, not have to do.
We also share a community bank account. One of the players remarks how nice it is to check the amount of credits in his inventory just because he's curious as to how much he has there, not because he needs to check it so he can buy/pay for things. As a group, we work towards watching our business treasury build. With an overhead of almost .75 million a week now in just maintenance fees, not including training fees, tipping money, or buying special resources, or loot/rare items, or anything we may want (want, not need), the fact that our guild treasury remains in excess of 1.5 million, and our city hall had almost 1 million in it, we are all very proud of what we have achieved.
I honestly do not feel that our business model as it is now would be as fun and profitable if I was not able to be set admin on each and every building we own (or if they could not be set admin on every building we own). In a typical day our guild chat or emails to one another run along the lines of:
"Hey, were are those electronic GP modules at again?" "Electronic warehouse, behind the guild hall."
"Uh, we are completely out of wooly hide. I can't make any more armour until we get some." "Noted, posting on the forums to get some."
"Where can I put this run of synthetic cloth? The tailoring warehouse is full again." "Umm.. umm, try overflow warehouse A."
"If you want me to make brandy and port to put on the vendors in addition to what we use personally, I need 200k of gemstone to make one run of casks." "::heads out and switches mineral harvesters to gemstone for a week::"
"Gemstone's in." "Great, food factories will be busy for the next few days, hope noone else needed to use them."
"Hey, I need to do a quick run of armour components, but both factories are going. Anyway I can get one of them?" "Use wearables factory B, just put the schematic back in and restart it when your done."
"Where do I put this speeder I made that someone just ordered?" "Offer it up to the tools and equipment vendor. We have others up already so it will be an hour before I return to the Estate to buy it." "No problem, didn't know we had some up already." (Note: offers like this are done for 1 credit, since the money is all going right back into the community.)
"Need anything done?" "Hum, can you inventory warehouse F for me please?" "Sure."
"Someone's asking to buy 200k of polysteel copper (in the spammer's market). We have that to spare in two different types according to our resource inventory list." "Name please?" :
eal made::
*******************************************************************************
Limiting admin rights in one form or another will directly affect us. Harvesters I can deal with, and have alternative plans ready in case this happens. Doing it to factories as well is a lot more difficult to deal with, but again, I already have a plan to adjust and adapt and still be able to keep the community spirt alive that we have.
We are also a self-contained economy. We rarely have a need to go outside our Estate for any purchases. (Unless I'm in a shopping spree mode looking for a deal.I am a merchant after all, I will buy and resell occasionally if I find a good deal.) As such, all those harvesters fields have zero impact on me and my guild, so I cannot understand the full effects, negitive or otherwise, that they have over all. It has a positive impact on my guild, because I know where to go to get cheap resources in bulk should we need extra grinding steel to help out that new apprentice that wants to make Master.
Because I started out by myself, with a single character, running missions to feed the harvester beasts, I also cannot understand how harvester fields upset any balance or make it unfair for new players. If I can do it, others can to, and I even take on apprentices and show them how to do it.
I've learned a great deal about all the professions, their issues, and take an active interest in them because I am the voice and intelligence (intelligence as in information gathering) for our guild. The others trust me to be on the up and up with any developing concerns, changes to come, etc.
Can anyone explain in concise terms why and how harvester fields are a major concern to them, and how they effect you personally either negitive or positive?
Mistress Kyphi Makarha
one of my guildies has a house entirely filled with bantha dolls..i'm not sure itsonly resources that are the problem..we are just a big bunch of broken datapad and melon hording freeks
joined42904 wrote:
I know this is not in keeping with the spirit of the game as it currently exists and it will probably generate a flame, but....I actually hope the devs Don't make ships craftable. Let starships become the new focus of uber loot. Let those hologrinding resources be destroyed because they really are worthless. They won't be destroyed if starships require "metal" etc. in massive quantities to be manufactured. And let's be honest...a ship should require a lot more of a resource than a vehicle. So you're looking at tons more than the 8k used for a swoop. (Alternatively, please make ships require a new resource that only spawns starting with JTL.)
ships are going to be craftable under a new skill tree called shipwright. in addition, uber parts and powerup type stuff will be lootable in space. it hasn't been said how much resources are going to be needed but yeah i'll bet it will be a big bunch. go check out the jtl forum, the demo was unbelievable. good times ahead
Giamai,
I have one problem with your notion that in-server trading is not an exploit. What's the rationale of what you are being sold by the player renting lots to you? I don't really have one. Especially since harvesters are moved, etc. So it's not as if they're letting you mine on family land or some such.
Also, how exactly do you quantify the difference between cross-server and in-server lot trading? I'm curious. Because I can't come up with a good honest definition. If I log in twice a week for one hour and play SWG just that much and use that time to place harvs and get resources....seems I would be entitled to do that. Whatever you say is the cut-off, that is what will be done by dedicated cross-lot exchangers. They already have the macros to dance or play music on a second server while they're asleep or better yet watching their favorite TV programs (so that they can keep track of time and make sure they're over the limit).
this question of how to find those involved in cross-server trading was notspecified per se, so i will theorize..generally what i have seen is that a character is specifically created to hold lots and is not leveled. the log on time is probably a few hours here and there. since lots of harvesters are basically placed to be permanent or simply allowed to burn, the owner need not come back any time soon. seems like those types of characters (owners of cdef pistols, one novice profession, one melon and 10 heavy harvesters) would be easy for the dev's to spot. if admin rights become the sole responsibility of the owner, its alot more trouble for the invader from another server to show up and do all those admin things that need doing..thus the incentive to participate drops significantly i would think.
as for inserver trading usually thats what it is..a trade. in a guild for example, people will place lots for docs, AS, WS etc in exchange for free buffs, armor, whatever. either way, all of these are things that feed into a single server economy..it is true free enterprise and therefore does not feed into the economic imbalances the way that other factors such as the big resource conglomerates have.
I think that's why you agree that what to pick now is really removing admin from harvesters.
Now...why do I want admin removed from other buildings except perhaps guildhalls? Because Admin makes it too easy for one person to store someone else's large hoarded supply of resources in absentia. "I'll plop down 10 naboo houses on your server if you will do the same on mine." Instant capacity to store 1500 items (or is it 1000?). And each of these items can be 100k of resources. So that's 100 million units of resource storage. And a lot of extra houses littering the countryside anywhere that will take a Naboo house.
Do you see the whole problem with admin? Storage becomes more feasible for cross-lot exchangers. And making you have your cross-server friend log in when you want to get 100k of xxxx resource would I think put a stop to a great deal of this. Because coordinating schedules in this way is time consuming and cumbersome. (Maybe it would be possible to consider resources differently from all other items so that you could allow admin on structures but the admined person could not pick up resources though he/she could pick up everything else.)
all of that presumes that the whole point of sharing lots is specifically about creating resource monopolies. it has been my experience that non-harvester sharing is arranged for mutual benefit for many.someexamples, i am on admin on my friends houses and they are on my admin so we can just drop stuff off to each other when we aren't online. the guild holds storage houses..the scout types drop off meats for the docs hides for the AS people..in exchange for buffs and the like. again, feeding into the economy, the docs make buffs to sell and give to guildies, the scouts sell half their stuff out of guild etc. my guild also has a crafting house with a very long list on admin so everyone who needs has access to some very nice crafting stations. we also have guild malls on several planets where anyone with merchant can be on admin and place a vendor of their own.
i see the point of the game as fitting with this, we are meant in many ways to be be able to work together..sure admin rights on houses creates the potential for theft and the like but from what i have seen it is surprisingly functional. cross-server trading is a rarity in these types of trades simply because there are usually enough people within a guild to share lots on permanent structures and they stay on the server.
I just want to help out the devs with some ideas to solve some of their databse problems. And I wager resources are a big part of that problem. Because each one has so many stats that all have to be stored. Unlike a standard piece of furniture for instance.
LadyIllyria wrote:Can anyone explain in concise terms why and how harvester fields are a major concern to them, and how they effect you personally either negitive or positive?
Mistress Kyphi Makarha
LOL, you want concise when you just typed a WoT?
Anyways, harvester fields provide the harvesting character access to resources for a LOT cheaper than if he had to buy or if he had rented lots. Not only that, it provides an almost infinate amount of resource supply. Case in point the former biggest Architect on Flurry. 270 static lots, mining ore. No wonder he was able to provide 100s of harvesters at the drop of a hat. So, instead of the customer base spreading, this guy almost cornered the market, AND made more profits due to his low overhead in resources.
Message Edited by RotorofCorRng on 06-11-2004 07:01 PM
LadyIllyria wrote:
Can anyone explain in concise terms why and how harvester fields are a major concern to them, and how they effect you personally either negitive or positive?
Mistress Kyphi Makarha
Miss,
As i have tryed my best (tho I am not perfect) to gather as much of their issues as i can..I am sure this will not be a complete list...but these have all been mentioned at one time or another as issues;
- Massive Harvestor Fleets under the supervision of One person: This issue deals with the persons ability to Hold Land in large swaths. Meaning the foot print of 50 harvestors is quite huge. If they made it so that "Static" harvestors were not possible by (in their minds) making it more 'work' to work in tandem like this...then this problem will be fixed. Now as a "Static" miner on LOK..I can attest that I could very very easily have a 50 fleet block up and it would be viable. But my current Model of 300+ isnt going to be Viable I would imagine. even at the worst of times there is Ore to be pulled....but in no way would i need 300+ harvs pulling ore.
- Cross Server Lot Trades: This issue tyes in very closely to the above...as well as to the over all "vision" and design of their economy. With Larger Fleets come Larger amounts of resources on the market. With Larger Amounts of Resources on the Market, Crafters are able to Produce more goods cheaper. IF they gain acess to alot of resources relitivly cheaply..allowing them to craft more than the Demand, the economy will enter a resession.
- The all Mighty Database (or lack there of at times); Tying in the above issues together really places a HUGE strain on their database resources. With a glut of resources, people will need to store what dosent sell. With this same glut of resources and crafters abilities to produce massive runs of things that will not sell right away....The Database starts to become full with a great deal of stored iteams.
All in all I am beginning to see whats what...and i cannot fault them for thinking about this. The Ideal Economy for them would be to have things being made sold and used very very quickly. If the resources are limited...crafters will be producing less iteams and not being able to meet demands...storing next to nothing. They WANT it so that as resources are being pulled..that crafters have to use them up and really make deals, streach their obligations in order to save some good stuff for the future.
The ability for Crafters to Save and Save good resources untill every resource needed to make something is pulled..then mass producing Top Quality products in such quantities that they thereby need to Store the excess untill they can save up enough Quality materials to do it all over again....is what they are trying to stop/fix.
They do not WANT the best to be made...or nothing to be made at all...they desier a variety of constantly produced iteams. and for the demand to always be greater that the supply.
At least by looking at all thats been going on, would be my very best guess for a "healthy" MMO economy....that above probably describes a 'perfect' economy.
I'Thoth