Architect Archive
Thread: A Miners Message: Sent To Thunderheart
ThothTheWise
Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:22 am
#144
The Devs SAY its about thing such as "land grab" and the economy...but the more we talk about it it seems to me that ,again. its all about their lack of database resources.
Where does all the crap being stored Start? Harvestors...and the stuf those resources allow people to create en mass then store.
They want us to always be meeting or falling short of meeting the demand for iteams simply so their database isnt bogged down by us storing **edit**.
In the end i really feel this is the meat of the issue. If/when it comes i seriously dopubt it will be JUST harvestors that get hit with the nerf bat. It will probably be factories as well, simply because in most of my lot trades i have done alot of factory placments. why? because they dont ever NEED to be moved. which then frees up a precious lot for yet another mobile harvestor.
next to factories (3rd on the list of most lot traded things) comes the PA HALL....because as we all know it also dosent need to move and costs an extreme amount of LOTS...many PAs happen to have an extra account paid by most of its members (say 1 dollar each) just so the PA leader dosent get saddled with a building filling up all his lots.
they can give any6reason the choose...but if the bat swings beyond the harvestors...guess what the real reason was =P economy be damned.
Redguard
Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:50 am
#145
Having worked metagame mechanics from a live action game I'll just state the following and make a few comments.
Not preventing something in game is not an endorsement/approval of the behavior in question.
You can convince yourself that in a game where each account has usually has one character per server and where each character is only given 10 lots that having access to 100's of lots is an acceptable practice. You're deluding yourself and unfortunately this behavior is going to cause alot of grief for people that play the game as it was intended.
You cannot convince me that if players such as yourself were not selling resources that the economies would buckle because of a lack of resources. If anything the economies have been diluted by the overproduction of resources. Cost and value have little to do with one another anymore because what was once something that was rare is now common because of the extra harvesters pouring out massive quantities of resources.
Not all that long ago I used to believe that harvester certs were a bad idea. Then I took a walk through eclipse and saw several harvester farms that were literally kilometers in area. I then realized that if i were to be a crafter on that server I would be screwed for the following reasons access to my resources would be limited, there would be a limited number of suppliers thus I would be paying more for my resources and finally I would be in competition with crafters who have resources in such abundance that i could NEVER hope to compete with them.
I'm probably taking a very unpopular point of view among some of the crafters and resources gathering folks but I know that the lot swapping and resource dumping have to stop because they are not good for the game as a whole.
Vexor
Fri Jun 11, 2004 2:28 am
#146
/salute
Redguard wrote:
Having worked metagame mechanics from a live action game I'll just state the following and make a few comments.
Not preventing something in game is not an endorsement/approval of the behavior in question.
You can convince yourself that in a game where each account has usually has one character per server and where each character is only given 10 lots that having access to 100's of lots is an acceptable practice. You're deluding yourself and unfortunately this behavior is going to cause alot of grief for people that play the game as it was intended.
You cannot convince me that if players such as yourself were not selling resources that the economies would buckle because of a lack of resources. If anything the economies have been diluted by the overproduction of resources. Cost and value have little to do with one another anymore because what was once something that was rare is now common because of the extra harvesters pouring out massive quantities of resources.
Not all that long ago I used to believe that harvester certs were a bad idea. Then I took a walk through eclipse and saw several harvester farms that were literally kilometers in area. I then realized that if i were to be a crafter on that server I would be screwed for the following reasons access to my resources would be limited, there would be a limited number of suppliers thus I would be paying more for my resources and finally I would be in competition with crafters who have resources in such abundance that i could NEVER hope to compete with them.
I'm probably taking a very unpopular point of view among some of the crafters and resources gathering folks but I know that the lot swapping and resource dumping have to stop because they are not good for the game as a whole.
Giamai
Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:27 am
#147
Iaan,
I actually totally agree with you, i honestly think that the end of hologrinding will eliminate much of the current resource market and therefore much of the cross-server lot trading. i am not convinced that anything actually does need to be done about it
what i was convinced of at fanfest is that the dev's think something should be done. my ending opinion had more to do withwhich of the two proposed options i would be most willing to accept...given the limitations imposed by the dev's attempting to correct the current imbalance in the economy of the game.
there are probably other ways that can be used to deal with the problem of cross-server lot trades but only thetwo options i detailed above were specifically mentioned.
bluejanus
Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:40 am
#148
RotorofCorRng wrote:
Cross server lot trading sucks and it is an unfair advantage over those that dont have the time or are new. I hope they make it impossible for you guys that take such advantage of an obvious unintentional way to overpower a portion of the game.
Message Edited by RotorofCorRng on 06-09-2004 06:27 AM
It doesn't seem unintentional, since you can have more than one character per account. Surely it wouldn't inconceivable to imagine that you might create a character to help out a friend on another server, loaning out your lots is just a step beyond. And look, now we can talk and send email to people on other servers. Yep, they're really trying to keep people from lot trading.
No one said this game was fair to everyone. So are you saying that people who played earlier or have more time than casual or new players have an unfair advantage?
bluejanus
Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:21 am
#149
LonelyGhost wrote:
IMHO, This is exactly what the Devs want! THey want more people involved in all areas of the economy! Instead of 5 people providing 80% of the resources to the entire server, they want 500 people providing the same 80%. Instead of 5 master WS making a combinedthousands of guns a week, there are 500 WS making hundreds of guns.
One of the issues, well, one of the words used, was monopoly. Rather than debate if its even possible, lets just take it at face value *as proof of the Devs mind-set*. The word monopoly implies very few (or single) people or groups dominating one or several marketson the whole server. Again, its not important to debate if this is true, if it is good/bad, etc... The point is that the Devs seem to have taken issue with this.
There are 2 things in existence that, IMHO, have allowed for this belief to grow in the Dev's minds.... Human dedication and perseverance, and the flow of resources. Without either one of those 2 things, the "feeling" of a monopoly the Devs have fixated on would not exist.
I dont expect them to act on any of the rumored admin nerfs in the near future. If they were smart, they would wait till after P9, and start watching the resource market really closely. I am already in planning for a new source of income. I do not expect my mining business to exist in its current incarnation after P9 hits Live. I will still run things for a few weeks, if anything, to stock up on stuff before I pack it in. I'll still run a normal, small-time mining operation, but probably only to supply myself with resources to craft with. I'm keeping some options open.
Any economic system that requires active participation by players is probably going to be pretty detrimental to casual players. A community system like what you're talking about requires time to build trust relationships and business arrangements that casual players won't be able to participate in very well.
While lot trades have contributed greatly to the supply of resources, I think the ability for any class to harvest is probably just as significant. It's like any random person could start a moisture farm on Tatooine and succeed wildly.
ColForbin13thIr
Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:43 am
#150
Good stuff Thoth. I would hope to see discussion take place before any changes are made.
In a player driven, free market economy, one can only expect that there will be a multitude of levels in the continuim of crafters and all businesspeople. I was under the impression that the Devs would understand this when they created such an economy. Absent artificial controls, one can only expect there to be some who succeed on incredible levels. In other words, the cream rises to the top.
In a way, it's not a lot diferent from PvP or any other system. Some will be the best if there is any variability in how the system works. I think that's why many play games of this nature actually. There is a certain segment who will do what it takes to be "the best" for it's own sake.
So the question becomes, is there too much variability, therby creating a stratification that is too wide ?
In a player driven, free market economy, one can only expect that there will be a multitude of levels in the continuim of crafters and all businesspeople. I was under the impression that the Devs would understand this when they created such an economy. Absent artificial controls, one can only expect there to be some who succeed on incredible levels. In other words, the cream rises to the top.
In a way, it's not a lot diferent from PvP or any other system. Some will be the best if there is any variability in how the system works. I think that's why many play games of this nature actually. There is a certain segment who will do what it takes to be "the best" for it's own sake.
So the question becomes, is there too much variability, therby creating a stratification that is too wide ?
Message Edited by ColForbin13thIr on 06-12-2004 09:07 AM
Rhazohn
Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:41 am
#151
okay, first off - removing admin from the harvestors IMO - bad news. From my personal point, I run 5 toons just for the lots, bought the game & pay the monthly fee. My $$'s going to pay for those lots. I have my Master Merchant/Artisan run them all. They are not static, I need the best resources for my endeavours so the other toons do run around with the deeds. For all those that engage in hiring people for their lots, again, it hurts them if they are not on the admin list, especially if you are renting from lazy people who won't keep track of maintance costs/surplus & you supplied them the harvestors.
I come from shadowfire. The economy there has been in turmoil since the second month of that servors launch. Good resources go for GODLY amounts of credits. Why? No one mines. We have the 2cd lowest population rate of all galaxies. So the few that do mine make a killing & those that craft have no choice but too, buy, double the cost & resell. See the problem there?
Lastly, I beleive that JTL will ( hopefully ) keep miners in business after the whole Jedi craze is done grinding. The biggest problem I see with resources IMO is that there is just not enough diversity of resources to make top quality stuff. Requirements should be specific for high end weapons, armor, ect. I really hope the Devs take a look at that if/when they make starships craftable & not make it like the vehicles we currently have.
Rhazohn Badwih -Head Surveyor for WIRED Heavy Industries LLC
Wander in to WanderInc & get WIRED. Next to the shuttleport in Brenn, Naboo, Shadowfire
HalasterTheBlack
Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:16 am
#152
ZallusNuranxis wrote:
I think you're still not following the "spirit of the game" by having alternate accounts. But that could be just my opinion
I'm pretty sure I'm very closely aligned with the devs' "spirit of the game"...
Trust me, they don't want to alienate people with multiple accounts. For all the work of keeping ONE person, they get paid FOUR times by me and by many others like me.
masselin
Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:30 am
#153
the elimination of hologrinding does notmean that grinding professions will go away.
i grinded through doctor, weaponsmith and i'm on armorsmith and none of it was to unlock fscs... anyone who wishes to master any of the crafting professionsmay chooseto grind the profession to master and there will be a fair market for grind resources for as long as droid engineer, doctor, combat med, architect, armorsmith, artisan, bio engineer, chef, medic, smuggler, tailor, weaponsmith and soon shipwright remain professions in the game.
architects, artisans and tailorsuse grind quality resources in many of the items they create to sellas doesany crafter who crafts an item that does not possess usuable attributes like furnature, houses and guildhalls.
the statement that the end of hologrinding will mean the end of a market for grind resources is false. cross server lot swapping will continue to be a profitable endeavor as long as it remains in the game.even more sowhen a high quality resource does spawn undera harvester farm.
joined42904
Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:36 am
#154
I know this is not in keeping with the spirit of the game as it currently exists and it will probably generate a flame, but....I actually hope the devs Don't make ships craftable. Let starships become the new focus of uber loot. Let those hologrinding resources be destroyed because they really are worthless. They won't be destroyed if starships require "metal" etc. in massive quantities to be manufactured. And let's be honest...a ship should require a lot more of a resource than a vehicle. So you're looking at tons more than the 8k used for a swoop. (Alternatively, please make ships require a new resource that only spawns starting with JTL.)
Giamai,
I have one problem with your notion that in-server trading is not an exploit. What's the rationale of what you are being sold by the player renting lots to you? I don't really have one. Especially since harvesters are moved, etc. So it's not as if they're letting you mine on family land or some such.
Also, how exactly do you quantify the difference between cross-server and in-server lot trading? I'm curious. Because I can't come up with a good honest definition. If I log in twice a week for one hour and play SWG just that much and use that time to place harvs and get resources....seems I would be entitled to do that. Whatever you say is the cut-off, that is what will be done by dedicated cross-lot exchangers. They already have the macros to dance or play music on a second server while they're asleep or better yet watching their favorite TV programs (so that they can keep track of time and make sure they're over the limit).
I think that's why you agree that what to pick now is really removing admin from harvesters.
Now...why do I want admin removed from other buildings except perhaps guildhalls? Because Admin makes it too easy for one person to store someone else's large hoarded supply of resources in absentia. "I'll plop down 10 naboo houses on your server if you will do the same on mine." Instant capacity to store 1500 items (or is it 1000?). And each of these items can be 100k of resources. So that's 100 million units of resource storage. And a lot of extra houses littering the countryside anywhere that will take a Naboo house.
Do you see the whole problem with admin? Storage becomes more feasible for cross-lot exchangers. And making you have your cross-server friend log in when you want to get 100k of xxxx resource would I think put a stop to a great deal of this. Because coordinating schedules in this way is time consuming and cumbersome. (Maybe it would be possible to consider resources differently from all other items so that you could allow admin on structures but the admined person could not pick up resources though he/she could pick up everything else.)
I just want to help out the devs with some ideas to solve some of their databse problems. And I wager resources are a big part of that problem. Because each one has so many stats that all have to be stored. Unlike a standard piece of furniture for instance.
Fuss
Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:18 am
#155
I support doing anything to hurt Cross Server Lot Trades. Even if this isnt a permanent fix, it will make such models harder to run and therefore reduce them. There is going to be way too many resources on the servers considering the number of players active. Unless starships have very high resource costs (extremely high) the resource market will never recover. Which makes me wonder why anyone wants to be a full time miner anyways right now. Sorry I just don't think your model should survive as is. This however will hurt Architects in the short term.
Fuss Bango
Master Arch/Artisan/Merchant
BigZak
Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:18 am
#156
They have decided it is an abuse and are gonna...
A) make a cert for Med and Heavy
B) give only admin rights to the creater
Ouch....get ready guys, it's gonna hurt. But it is the only thing they can do to stop the exploit.
And you think that is gonna hurt, ppl who got merchant for venders then dropped merchant, nope, your venders are gonna go bye bye, 3000 items on venders, nope, 150 items on venders, no more storing items on venders, bye bye.
We are in for some big changes, just be ready for it.
Squiders, Radiant
Weaponsmith, armorsmith, merchant, master artisan, scout, medic
A) make a cert for Med and Heavy
B) give only admin rights to the creater
Ouch....get ready guys, it's gonna hurt. But it is the only thing they can do to stop the exploit.
And you think that is gonna hurt, ppl who got merchant for venders then dropped merchant, nope, your venders are gonna go bye bye, 3000 items on venders, nope, 150 items on venders, no more storing items on venders, bye bye.
We are in for some big changes, just be ready for it.
Squiders, Radiant
Weaponsmith, armorsmith, merchant, master artisan, scout, medic