Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: Melee Weapons, problems.
Do you attributetheABVUstatsto resources (ala Rhodium gating the barrels), or do you think they'd be hosed regardless?
Lastly, the whole Curved Sword thing. I hear Curved Sword is the be-all-end-all of everything, and it angers many because their certs are so out of whack. Any of you have any comments as to which melee weapons are completely out of whack, and outperformed by their predecessors?
Master Weaponsmith... Novice Swordsman.
Unless you're using the power hammer for mind bleeds the 2h curved sword generally IS the best... the 2h Cleaver gets close, but considering that it takes 2x the sword cores ... more expensive to produce and the stats don't justify it compared to the 2H Curved sword.
The ABVU is gated a bit by the Desh copper, UT around ~350 normally.
The solid petro is a freebie, and platinite copper has UT ~750 so if it is a resource issue it's the Desh. I personally am not convinced it is completelya resource gating prob. But that is just my impression.
...sigh...screwy browser.
1) BVUs vs. ABVUs - ABVUs have slightly higher damage but at a greatly reduced speed. Of course, these things tend to max out at about 20-30% experimentation due to the fact that Desh Copper has such low UT. I've found Platinite Copper with good UT, so that isn't the bottleneck, neither is the Class 3 SPF.
Desh Copper needs to be given a balance pass, and at least "checked". Does anyone have UBER Desh Copper out there, and can refute this?
2) In all honesty, only the 1 Handed Weapons seem to have any variety in use.
a) 1H Weapons: Dagger, Sword, Curved Sword, Gaderiffi Baton, Ryyk Blade, Vibroblade, and Stun Baton (elite cert). Dagger and Sword are the newb weapons, disregard them. Curved Swords have an incredible DPS, coupled with a very low speed...they are killer weapons for lower-level Brawlers/Fencers. Gaderiffi Batons have great damage, but low speed...a great weapon for higher level Fencers. The Vibroblade is the token AP 1 weapon. Ryyk Blade is the borked "crap" weapon in this line...it has worse DPS than the Curved Sword(!), yet has ridiculously high HAM costs. Stun Batons are Stun damage, and seem to have nice damage/delay considering their armor-nullifying power.
b) The reason I talked about 1H weapons first is to show how craptacular the rest of the Brawler lines are. Let's take 2H Swords. The progression of certs is Heavy Axe, Two Handed Axe, Two Handed Curved Sword, Vibro Axe, 2H Cleaver, and Power Hammer. That's 6 weapons. Heavy Axe is the newb weapon, disregard it. That leaves 5. The Vibro Axe and 2H Cleaver have LOWER DPS, and LOWER AP than the Two Handed Curved Sword, and the certs are placed HIGHER on the Brawler skill tree. So, those 2 weapons are NEVER going to be used. That leaves only the Two Handed Axe, the 2HCS, and the Power Hammer out of the entire 2H line. The 2HA is only going to be used for a very short time...it's immediately eclipsed by the 2HCS after another 15K XP. So we're down to the 2HCS and the PH as the only 2 real 2H weapons. The Power Hammer is AP 2 with Blast Damage, but has a speed of about 4.5 using advanced parts. That's SLOW, which means it's essentially a Master's weapon (it does have a DPS just slightly shy of the 2HCS, and an alternative damage type in its favor). All in all, the ONLY weapon choice in the 2H line is the 2HCS. It's AP 2, 2.6 speed, 62-245 damage (an average high-end one...give or take a few points of damage and .1 speed or so). Of course, this weapon is great, but do Swordsmen really need such a linear procession? Oh, and this weapon does NOT need NERFING....the other weapons in the line need some differentation to at least make them situational weapons...as they are now, they have NO USE whatsoever.
c) Polearms. Cert progression: Wood Staff, Reinforced Combat Staff, Lance, Long Vibro Axe, Vibro Lance. Major bork: The Long Vibro Axe isn't craftable until Master Weaponsmith. Wood Staff is Newb weapon...Reinforced Combat Staff is made by Artisans, so disregard those. That leaves only 3weapon choices for a Pikeman. The Lance is quickly eclipsed by the Long Vibro Axe (next skill box, in fact). The Vibro Lance is an elite cert...but, it's AP 1 and Electrical Damage, and the DPS is worse than an LVA. The LVA is AP 2, with monstrous damage. So, again, here's another skill line with only 1 real weapon worth using. I'd also like to note that most of the Polearms have ridiculously high accuracy penalties AND very high delays. I would agree with Pikemen being designed to miss a lot, but considering how slow their weapons are, this seems illogical. If you miss 50% of the time, and only attack 2 times in 10 seconds, you're going to die pretty quickly. If you miss 50% of the time, and attacked 10 times in 10 seconds, you'd be able to pull off that type of fighting style, more than likely.
3) Vibro Knucklers are fine...they're the only unarmed weapon. I don't really have any complaint with them. However, I would suggest maybe a lower level weapon/cert for those professions who HAVE to master Unarmed Fighting, but don't receive a Weapon Cert for it...i.e. Smugglers and Commandos. Shouldn't they get SOMETHING to augment their damage?
a) Some people will complain that VKs have high HAM costs. However, it's been stated by the Devs that VKS are SUPPOSED to have high HAM costs...they're a damage/speed increasing weapon primarily. If you want low HAM costs, USE YOUR BARE FISTS...that's the low-HAM alternative.
4) Melee weapons have no real enhancements. Vibro Motors are a joke...you'll get 1 in a millenia, if that. RancorFangs replace Sword Cores, they don't enhance them. Of course, the Advanced Sword Cores are better than the Rancor Fangs, so it'd be counter productive to use these rarely dropped loot components in any weapon. That's about it, really...Fangs and Motors...and both suck, or just aren't worth getting. Throw Brawlers a bone here...
5) Personal Idea: It would be interesting if Melee weapons brought a built-in Defense increase, akin to an Armor's resistance. In close-combat, they would be used as shields anyway. Plus, this would give a 3rd "thing" for the different Brawler professions to specialize in (i.e. Fencers - Speed, Swordsmen - Damage, Pikemen - Defense, TKA - Balance). This is just my own personal idea, and should not be taking as anything serious.
Anyway, hope that helps...I'm sure more people will think of other things.
Jedi_Titus wrote:
Wow DTox IS alive!!!!!!!!!
2. HAM cost is insane for several of the melee weapons
Can you be more specific here?
3. there are several melee weapon certs but no schematic for them
Rantok Swords are a quest item at Jabba's Palace.
Scythes are known to be non-existant in the game.
I'm at work so that is as specific as I can get here.
Logix wrote:
Do you attributetheABVUstatsto resources (ala Rhodium gating the barrels), or do you think they'd be hosed regardless?
I beleive I've lived through maybe 4-5 spawns of Desh, and not one has gone over 375 Unit Toughness. Of course, 4-5 spawns aren't a reliable sample, but from what I've heard and seen on swgcraft, it would be a reasonable assumption to say that the Desh gates the ABVU.
Lastly, the whole Curved Sword thing. I hear Curved Sword is the be-all-end-all of everything, and it angers many because their certs are so out of whack. Any of you have any comments as to which melee weapons are completely out of whack, and outperformed by their predecessors?
Yes and no. It depends on how informed people are. The Curved Sword COULD be the end-all-be-all Fencer weapon...it has the DPS and HAM costs for it. However, once a Fencer goes up about 3/4 of the Speed tree, they can switch to a Gaderiffi Baton for more damage. The Ryyk Blade, though, as I've mentioned, completely sucks and is not worth using. The only 1H weapons I make and sell are Curved Swords, Gaderiffi Batons, Stun Batons and a small amount of Vibroblades (odd how no one's noticed that VBs are AP 1 and would be the more natural choice as the end-all-be-all Fencer weapon).
BTW, the thread got away from me...I made a reply with ALL of what I wanted to comment on. You guys got ahead of me.
Why do normal "Lance"'s require both a blade vibro unit and a control unit? This makes ZERO sense. No other vibro weapon requires a control unit... and this isn't even a vibro weapon! Why does it require a vibro unit?
My suggestion would be to replace the BVU and control unit with a reinforcement core (Or two). That would make sense.
Furthur ... if you care to compare... here's a list of my weapons - these are pretty typical stats on my server. Some smiths with super-rare resources make better, but not many.
Vibro Knucklers: 2.3 35-141 36.4% +10+10+10 36/52/36
Two-hand Curved Swords: 2.7 55-240 36.9% +7+7+7 30/63/36
Two-Handed Axe: 4.0 114-180 31.0% +10+10+10 58/27/20
Power Hammer: 5.5 132-453 30.7% -32-32-32 117/38/25
LVA: 4.5 107-369 51.0% -55-55-55 83/67/29
Metal Staff: 4.3 87-133 7.0% -2-2-2 7/57/34
Vibrolance: 4.0 95-297 35.4% -31-31-31 56/78/29
Sword: 2.9 65-153 29.4% +16+16+16 30/32/32
Curved Swords: 2.4 67-165 34.0% +9+9+9 27/52/36
Ryyk Blades: 2.6 67-168 38.8% -8-8-8 51/41/36
Vibro Blade: 2.7 42-141 22.9% +3+3+3 14/26/14
Gaderiffi Baton: 3.6 126-212 31.8% -4-4-4 62/38/20
Not that all subcomponents used in these are advanced pieces... Some (most) of the advanced resources have never spawned about 750 on qualities that matter ... that I know of anyway.
Anyway, hope that will help your comparrisons... if not, tell me to shut up =D.
Alright, this is what I'm going to add to the list.
- Ryyk Sword needs a balance pass. Marked by its poor DPS and skyrocketing HAM costs, it is severely outperformed by its predecessor, the (1H) Curved Sword.
- The 2H weapons line needs a balance pass. The Two-Handed Curved Sword greatly outperforms every other weapon in the line, even though its cert comes much earlier. The Vibro Axe and the Two Handed Cleaver both come after theTwo-handed Curved Sword, however, they both have a lower DPS and a lower AP. The only comparable weapon that remains is the Power Hammer. Even with top-end components, the Power Hammer is entirely too slow of a weapon, leaving it mostly a "Master" weapon. This leaves the Swordsman profession with very few weapons worth using.
- The Polearms line needs a balance pass. This profession is granted only three weapons to choose from, the Lance, the Long Vibro Axe and the Vibro Lance. The Lance is quickly eclipsed by the LVA in one skillbox, granting this weapon very little use. The LVA becomes the king of the Polearm profession, even outperforming the all-too-situational Vibro Lance. The Vibro Lance has an elite cert and should definitely not be outperformed so easily.
- Desh Copper needs a balance pass. Similar to the woes of the Advanced Blaster Barrel components, the Advanced Blade Vibro Unit suffers a similar fate. This advanced component is not greatly superior to its predecessor, the blame lying inthe Desh Copper ingredient requirement. Desh Copper has not been reported to reach over ~300 UT, even though the ABVU schematic is based from 100% UT.
HAM costs: I agree, that's why I didn't add it to the list. Devs say it's intended, it's out of my hands.
Pikeman accuracy: This is also out of my hands, it's "as designed". You'll have to push the hell out of that issue on the Pikeman boards, but trying to push it here is futile.
Crappy enhancements: Also agreed, I already put this on the list.
Thanks for the stats. Also, the Lance thing is good information to add to the "illogical schematic ingredients" list. Do you have any others that don't match up with their weapon? Vibro stuff not having Vibro components and vice-versa.
PloovoTwoForOne wrote:
Might I also mention... Did before, but it still drives me nuts.
Why do normal "Lance"'s require both a blade vibro unit and a control unit? This makes ZERO sense. No other vibro weapon requires a control unit... and this isn't even a vibro weapon! Why does it require a vibro unit?
Hey.
There is not a **edit** thing wrong with the powerhammer, cleaver, or 2h curved sword.All are useful in different circumstances. They don't need balancing, tweaking, or adjusting.
The powerhammer, in particular, is perfect.
With appropriate slicing and use of powerups, you can get it as fast as 3.1 seconds, or over 700 max damage. Take your pick.
Similarly, you can get a cleaver down to 2.0 seconds, or over 330 max damage. Cleavers are great all-around weapons with nice, consistant damage.By the way, they are medium AP, not light.
I'm not going to sing the praises of the 2h curved sword, everyone likes it already. It has the best accuracy of all.
Pleasekeep in mind that anyone with a clue will gettheir stuffsliced, and will use powerups.
Those two factors allow tons of room for alteringspeed vs. damagecharacteristics, so enough with the calls for changes-there is nothingbroken here, andmany of uslike themjust as they are.
As for the heavy axe, two handed axe, and vibro axe -I haven't used any of those fora long time, soI have no comment on them.
Master brawler - Master swordsman - TK 4004 - Fencer 4400
Posted this before, but not sure if it got lost down the forums, so reposting here:
I play a master swordsman on the side, who also dabbles as a fencer, a TKA, and a pikeman. I've tested out every melee weapon there is, and I've also been on the creation end ofall of these weapons. I can run down a list of melee issues from my personal experience.
Swordsman:
Swordsmen may hate me for saying this, but the 2-handed curved needs a nerf. Currently the vibro-axe and 2-handed cleaver are pointless to make except for looks. The 2-handed curved has a lower cert, but it still has medium AP, far higher DPS, better range mods, and comparable HAM costs to the 2 swords above it in the brawler tree. Hell, while we're at it, nerf the 2-handed axe too, hasn't anyone else noticed this is the first swordsman weapon past novice and it already has medium AP? Having mastered brawler, I can say that the swordsman tree was by far and away the easiest to get through.
You can drop the AP on those 2 weapons to light, and they'd still be plenty powerful, and would give a reason to make and use the swords higher in the tree. As it is right now there's no reason to use anything but the 2HCS until you are halfway through swordsman, when your speed and accuracy mods finally allow the powerhammer to become the fantastic weapon that it is. Though there's alot of complaining on the swordsman forum, the majority of it regards issues with their special moves (they currently have about 9 jillion area attacks all with the same general effect). I can say with confidence that I have only come across maybe a few NPCs where I was screwed as a swordsman (Spider clan cave on Dath, something had 100% kinetic, 100% blast, I ended up using my VL or stun baton), and that other than that, I think the weapons are fantastic.
TKA:
Great defense mods, best toughness mods, and the ability to meditate away just about anything from the common cold to the bubonic plague. Let's not forget the powerboost skill which boosts all the HAM pools significantly for quite some time, or the ability to shorten incap. I've sold 250 VKS in about a week, and may have sold more had I not run out a few times. TKAs are living the good life, and there are plenty out there, from masters to dabblers. No need to touch the VKs. They're just peachy.
Fencer:
Not that he'll likely ever read this, but I have to give a shout-out to Ofari, who has purchased probably 250 or more of my gaderiffi batons. Right now, the gad baton seems to be the weapon of choice for most fencers. WhileI do like stun weapons like the stun baton, this weapon has very high HAM costs, particualrly mind costs, and still has relatively low damage output. The vibroblade is the only light AP weapon that fencers have.Now if you look at the numbers on the vibroblade you'd see it hasslightly higher min dmg, and about .4 slower speed than a VK, with much much lower HAM costs (mine are around 11/21/11 as opposed to 31/47/31 VKs). The problem is that the unarmed combatant has the +unarmed damage skill mod to help out along the way, where as the fencer has no such modifier. The end result is that the vibroblade isa pretty poor light AP weapon with a very commonly resisted damage type.
My suggestion would be to leave the stun baton as it is, but to add a rantok schematic, and to give the rantok light AP, slower speed than a VB, higher HAM, but also much improved damage. As I said, right now the weapon of choice for most fencers is the silly looking gad baton which is a very low cert. Making a rantok worth using would be a distinct benefit to the fencer class.
Pikeman:
Leveling up to the novice pikeman cert is like banging your head against a wall. The abyssmal accuracy mods on the LVA cause pikemen to whiff so much, I've been offered jobs as a table fan. For my pike-wielding customers, I manufacture an LVA with the vibro unit and weapon fully experimented for range (after damage is maxed of course), and the best I can do,is still -35/-36/-36. And of course, this also means no HAM experimentation, meaning your specials kill you quicker than the enemy. You better stock up on the BoH and ryscathe.This leaves the LVA with still worse range mods than the powerhammer and vibrolance (my PH is at -30, VL is at -31. I make an accurate PH too that is -19).
Even the vibrolance and powerhammer with the -30ish range mods really arent too useful until you get halfway up their respective trees and get the + accuracy mods. The LVA is just brutal though, consider that it's really the only weapon to work through the 4th box of pikeman and work up to the novice box as well. You could kill trash mobs all day with the regular lance I guess...but just dont go against anything with even light armor.
End analysis here is that they need to relax the range mods on the LVA. The VL is fine in my opinion...light AP with electricity damage is a nice little weapon.
I know alot of the above can be considered more class issues than WS issues, but there is little else to say about melee right now from a WS standpoint. My general gripe would have to be that there are only 2 damage types for each melee profession, (1 for TKA, but they're fine) and at least one of them is always kinetic. This CAN cause some problem when you run into something that resists both of your damage types. All the ranged classes have 3 damage types at the very least.
The other gripe in a lack of melee enhancements.
The high frequency vibro motor is a cruel joke (+5 wound? come on guys) while the high powered vibro motor is nothing special (+20 max damage).
I do use the high powered vibro motors, and I do feel they are nice little enhancements to a degree, however, one thing that needs to be taken into account here is the general difficulty of experimenting melee weapons. For smiths with the +25 to weapon experimentation, it's not quite as bad, but for a regular master there is a significant chance of having poor experiments on the vibro unit itself, and then on the final creation of a weapon like the VK. Most smiths will be making VKs anywhere from 26-29%, meaning that without all great successes, there is a good chance the hand crafted VK can come out several tenths of a second slower, or with a damage only very slightly increased over their factory ones where they have unlimited attempts to make a perfect schematic.
And of course, perhaps the most annoying enhancement, the rancor teeth. I'm not even sure these are still dropping, or if I just keep having people approach me with recycled ones from before they were patched out of the loot table. I have yet to see one though with better than .8-1.0 speed and usually some atrocious HAM like 20/20/20 with 5/50 min/max. These things go beyond worthless to actually being absurd. I mean if they actually looked like teeth they could at least make a cool decoration, but no, not even useful in that respect. Someone said before that the issue is that they replace the core instead of actually being added to the core, however the issue is much deeper than this. Even if you could add those stats to one of your weapons, would you? 1.0 slower speed, 20/20/20 extra HAM for a measly 5/50 min/max damage? I dont care if they keep them as replacements for cores, or if they make them as enhancements for cores (replacements are easier though...see above the difficulty of experimenting melee weapons, it's one less step to fail on), but they need to put these back into the loot table with some reasonable stats.
It's pretty difficult for the melee users to look at all these krayt enhanced stats knowing that the only enhancements they can get is a good slice.
Let's see, anything I didn't cover...
Resources for melee stuff is fine...the 3 words you need to know are duralloy, kammris, and polysteel. The stun baton uses power conditioners...this goes back to the issue of 10% control units being the same as 97% control units in guns...they have no effect.
I'm sure I'm leaving something big out here, but this is a pretty good overview of the state of melee I think.
Thoax Dromallet
Master Weaponsmith
"Guns don't kill people: People with Thoaxcorp Guns kill people"
P.S. Munitions: fix the speed on imp detonators...20+ delay is obscene
Oh, and by the way...just to reitterate, the Powerhammer is an awesome weapon at master swordsman and is far far better than the 2HCS. It even starts to outperfom the 2HCS halfway through swordsman. believe me whenI say, this weapon is plenty powerful and plenty fast in actual use. I use one with a damage slice, no speed slice or powerups, and I swing plenty fast. Swordsman, only needs a tweak on the earlier certs, where the 2HCS eclipses all the other weapons.
Thoax Dromallet